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Let me know if this is too fuzzy...
Neutral roll axis, low As%... Pretty nice, but the rear is a cakewalk compared to the front. :whistle:


-G

I had to squint a bit :D

yah always is. I just wanted to see if you had more or less roll axis in the rear.

You built your rear almost exactly like I would have

Knowing that your rear is very neutral I think if you have figured out a way to get around the exhaust and stuff I like the angled in lowers.
 
So you started with 6 degrees of roll steer and went to negative roll steer. Thats a large change cause your going from positive to negative.

According to Gregs link calculations from before if the arms are moved out further than they will still have almost 2 degrees of roll understeer. Which is still not bad. If he can mantain a couple degress of roll understeer and move the arms out of the way of the exhaust than I think that is the way to go.

Greg what Brandon said though demonstrates what I have been trying to say. It gets a bit squirmy at 80 or so but clears up by a 100. I am not saying you are never going to go that fast ( I would with your motor just cause I could) but the point being that everything is a compromise and you are just trying to get everything to work together as best as possible.

Its all about coming up with the best compromise for everything.

Although i will be honest here you are talking to a guy that will spend an entire day on something to get an extra half inch of clearance.

So I certainly respect the no compromise attitude.

I would also compromise a small amount of engine power for a very very good suspension, vs no engine power for a just a good suspension

We did make a big change, that change however was researched and painstakingly gone over to make sure that things were going to be right. I have to say we hit the nail on the head. The only improvement for the race car would be 4 link in the front end but that can't happen in this chassis. Well I guess IFS would be the ultimate improvement but that's another discussion.

The roll understeer is very important IMO to good handling. Just so everyone else knows what we're talking about; In a nut shell with a link suspension you get axle steer with body roll. Thus body roll can actually steer the vehicle left to right.
Roll oversteer shows up when the body rolls over in a corner and makes the front axle steer the vehicle into the corner harder. This is considered hard to control.
Roll understeer shows up when the body rolls over and makes the front axle steer the vehicle out of the corner.
I like to say that roll understeer keeps the car under itself.

In Gregs case I would move the lowers out to the point that I had a few degrees of understeer and then "lock" that dimension in and start making that one of the pivot men in the circle jerk. Eric you are right that if he can move the lowers out even a few inches it will help with all sorts of things.

Next I would do just as Greg has done and get some mockup stuff going. Get the drag link mocked up and then the track bar. Once you start to cycle things you will find some issues that need addressed.

The ORD 4 link kit is a really good example of something that has had several revisions and is about as good as it gets for off the shelf stuff. It is designed to be somewhat easy to install and package neatly and snugly on the vehicle. I was a part of each iteration and while there are areas that can have gains each of the gains has pitfalls.

Gregs build is so one of a kind that it's going to be hard to lump it into an off the shelf category. If you haven't already Greg spend some time on pirate looking at JR reynolds stuff and TJ mark? they have portals and have been making them look good in buggies for years, there may be some packaging and design things that get your juices flowing. I also find just looking at the build threads to be both helpful and reassuring that not everyone nails it every time.




Greg what are your rear numbers?

This is somewhat important to make sure that the rear isn't fighting the front.

What are your feelings on IFS Greg?:popcorn:
 
maybe we should start calling it a 3 link compromise instead of suspension!

I really can't wait to go through all of this again but finally on my own rig:D
 
Actually the handling is the most important to me on hard flat surfaces like Highways. With our old front link geometry we had like 6 degrees of roll steer and 3 or less degrees of caster. With the new front end geometry we have 2 or 3 degrees of roll understeer and like 8 degrees of caster. It gets a bit squirmy at about 80 but clears up around 95 and by 100MPH it feels good enough that you can one hand it.

Brandon, how much do you think it had to play in that you only had 3 degres of caster previously? I guess what I am saying is, you made two major changes, and I think its more likely the caster change effected your handling a lot more than the roll steer change did.

The reason I am asking is because my front radius arms have quite a bit of roll steer in them because well, they are radius arms and thats a compromise I had to take to fit the arms where I could, they are angled in at the frame, but not a lot, about 10 inches. Looking back I could of reduced the roll steer a little if I gave up some axle control or ground clearance by reducing the 8 inch rise of the lower links at the frame end (heck, if I just lower the ride height 1 inch right now the roller steer will be reduced by almost 1.5 degrees).

However, that doesn't bother me because even though I shot for 8 degrees of caster, I ended up with 10 degrees because of where I rotated my pumpkin, driveshaft angle, clearance, yada yada. Long story short, I have 10 degrees of caster and 7 degrees of rollsteer, and my truck feels very stable at speed, on the freeway, on the dirt, everywhere. I know that's not optimal roll steer, and I haven't had it above about ~90 MPH on the pavement, or maybe 70 on the dirt, but still, it feels completely under control and I drive it one handed even offroad a lot of times. Confidence comes to mind, not scary. The steering is a gigantic improvement in control and precision over when it was leaf springs and crossover.

I geuss what I am asking is, do you think you are giving the roll steer change more credit than due, when it may be due to the caster change since they were both changes at the same time? I am not saying roll oversteer is good, it isn't. I am just saying, if the caster is right and the suspension is tight then I think it will handle excellent with no roll understeer. Because low or no caster can cause wandering on the freeway and not returning to center and just bad handling in general.

You have more experience than I do I am just trying to point some things out to see what your experience is, hopefully you have driven a vehicle with consderable caster and some roll steer and maybe I don't know what I am missing?
 
Brandon, how much do you think it had to play in that you only had 3 degres of caster previously? I guess what I am saying is, you made two major changes, and I think its more likely the caster change effected your handling a lot more than the roll steer change did.

The reason I am asking is because my front radius arms have quite a bit of roll steer in them because well, they are radius arms and thats a compromise I had to take to fit the arms where I could, they are angled in at the frame, but not a lot, about 10 inches. Looking back I could of reduced the roll steer a little if I gave up some axle control or ground clearance by reducing the 8 inch rise of the lower links at the frame end (heck, if I just lower it 1 inch right now the roller steer will be reduced by almost 1.5 degrees).

However, that doesn't bother me because even though I shot for 8 degrees of caster, I ended up with 10 degrees because of where I rotated my pumpkin, driveshaft angle, clearance, yada yada. Long story short, I have 10 degrees of caster and 7 degrees of rollsteer, and my truck feels very stable at speed, on the freeway, on the dirt, everywhere. I know that's not optimal roll steer, and I haven't had it above about ~90 MPH on the pavement, or maybe 70 on the dirt, but still, it feels completely under control and I drive it one handed even offroad a lot of times. Confidence comes to mind, not scary. The steering is a gigantic improvement in control and precision over when it was leaf springs and crossover.

I geuss what I am asking is, do you think you are giving the roll steer change more credit than due, when it may be due to the caster change since they were both changes at the same time? I am not saying roll oversteer is good, it isn't. I am just saying, if the caster is right and the suspension is tight then I think it will handle excellent with no roll understeer. Because low or no caster can cause wandering on the freeway and not returning to center and just bad handling in general.

You have more experience than I do I am just trying to point some things out to see what your experience is, hopefully you have driven a vehicle with consderable caster and some roll steer and maybe I don't know what I am missing?

It is a bit hard to say honestly but in looking at caster and roll steer as two different things I see it like this;

With roll understeer
Like I said in a hard turn holding the wheel in a set position and a massive mount of body roll the vehicle/car wants to have the front end steer out of the turn thus making you have to turn the wheel more (sharper) to keep the same rate of turn. I think you can see how this would create stability because the vehicle always wants to "stay under itself/stay going straight"

Lack of Caster causes a wandering issue; While driving the old suspension setup we always had to turn the wheel and literally drive the vehicle. For instance on pavement with heavy truck ruts going straight the car always just drove kind of where ever it wanted and you had to steer to keep it in one lane. Basically there was no self center because of the lack of caster.

The poor handling was a chicken and an egg thing, once it started to wander around you had to counter steer that, (caster issue) which in turn resulted in some amount of body roll, which increased by some amount the steering input (roll oversteer issue) which typically led to over steering the original wander and now having to correct that correction. Do that for 20 or so miles and life sucks. I can count the times on one hand that I could drive that setup with one hand and not look like a drunk in the eight years it was like that, and I probably had several hundred highway miles in that time.

So it seems within reason that roll steer or more to the point roll understeer is important to have, for cornering stability, and caster is important for wandering.

To what degree one can shadow or mask the other I don't know, I have to think that with good caster you can mask a lot if issues, one being roll oversteer as the wandering feeling isn't there so some of the needed input goes away. I know Stephens blazer thing has way better caster and similar roll oversteer to what the car had with the old setup and he has taken it on the UA several times, he also doesn't talk much while driving it on the highway. That tells me that while it's better it's not great.

I have to wonder too if a radius arm setup helps to mask some issues being that the axle is in effect a giant swaybar. There is naturally some compliance in the bushings used etc. but the axle ends up being a swaybar at some point.

:dunno:
 
It is a bit hard to say honestly but in looking at caster and roll steer as two different things I see it like this;

With roll understeer
Like I said in a hard turn holding the wheel in a set position and a massive mount of body roll the vehicle/car wants to have the front end steer out of the turn thus making you have to turn the wheel more (sharper) to keep the same rate of turn. I think you can see how this would create stability because the vehicle always wants to "stay under itself/stay going straight"

Lack of Caster causes a wandering issue; While driving the old suspension setup we always had to turn the wheel and literally drive the vehicle. For instance on pavement with heavy truck ruts going straight the car always just drove kind of where ever it wanted and you had to steer to keep it in one lane. Basically there was no self center because of the lack of caster.

The poor handling was a chicken and an egg thing, once it started to wander around you had to counter steer that, (caster issue) which in turn resulted in some amount of body roll, which increased by some amount the steering input (roll oversteer issue) which typically led to over steering the original wander and now having to correct that correction. Do that for 20 or so miles and life sucks. I can count the times on one hand that I could drive that setup with one hand and not look like a drunk in the eight years it was like that, and I probably had several hundred highway miles in that time.

So it seems within reason that roll steer or more to the point roll understeer is important to have, for cornering stability, and caster is important for wandering.

To what degree one can shadow or mask the other I don't know, I have to think that with good caster you can mask a lot if issues, one being roll oversteer as the wandering feeling isn't there so some of the needed input goes away. I know Stephens blazer thing has way better caster and similar roll oversteer to what the car had with the old setup and he has taken it on the UA several times, he also doesn't talk much while driving it on the highway. That tells me that while it's better it's not great.

I have to wonder too if a radius arm setup helps to mask some issues being that the axle is in effect a giant swaybar. There is naturally some compliance in the bushings used etc. but the axle ends up being a swaybar at some point.

:dunno:

I agree with you on the wandering, causing rolling, causing steering cycle, that makes sense. I also wondered about the radius arm/sway bar effect as well. And I have taken one of the upper links out to eliminate the binding, and to be honest driving down the road didn't change much. I think the main reason is because my stupid FOA shocks the dual rate slider keeps binding and releasing causing weird noises every time the suspension moves, and also creating a stiffer spring effect(I'm ditching them for Kings this summer), and my dual rate stops are not too far from ride height, maybe a couple inches(which is more than a couple inches of suspension travel). Because I also tested the articulation with the upper link removed and the coil springs were limiting the articulation before the bushing bind was for my setup with the 43" arms and 10" of inward angle. (I have 8" if vertical separation at the axle and poly bushings). I think if it was setup really soft (I have 450/300) the bushing would be the limit, but right now they aren't. I guess I am saying it doesn't work like a sway bar as much as I thought it would, I thought it would be worse. But no doubt there has to be some stress on the axle during articulation.

I drive one handed all the time, on road and off road. So from my limited experience caster is much more important than roll steer, although proper roll steer should be a goal no doubt.
 
Eric,

I had to swap out the image on post #2040 late last night. For some reason I posted up a front 4-link design instead of my current rear 4-link setup.

FYI.


....off to the shop to see what I can learn today. :waytogo:


-G
 
I agree with AJ272K5... this build from a fabrication point is the best. But the past few pages make my head spin :-)

I thought a 4 link in a race car was tough to get a handle on, this front axle stuff takes the cake! Especially with Mogs!
 
Eric,

I had to swap out the image on post #2040 late last night. For some reason I posted up a front 4-link design instead of my current rear 4-link setup.

FYI.


....off to the shop to see what I can learn today. :waytogo:


-G

Looking at that again its a bit different but not much.

Using those numbers your front numbers still look fine. I like to see more AS in the rear but I have seen high AS and super low AS numbers work well almost more dependent on the driver than the rig.

I was talking with a buddy who had put ORIs in his rig replacing his coil overs and he said that he used to have a bit of a high speed wander too. Putting the ORIs on there completely eliminated the wander.

They do act different than coilovers so the lower AS you have might actually work better ( have heard this about ORIs a little)

It doesn't look like anything in the rear will fight anything in the front still.

I looked again and I think you should move those arms out and try to get the understeer to 1.5-2 degrees I think that would be enough and it may get your arms more out of the way.

I have a question for you Brandon?

Whats the deal with all the circle jerk references, you in the dog house????:haha:
 
I agree with you on the wandering, causing rolling, causing steering cycle, that makes sense. I also wondered about the radius arm/sway bar effect as well. And I have taken one of the upper links out to eliminate the binding, and to be honest driving down the road didn't change much. I think the main reason is because my stupid FOA shocks the dual rate slider keeps binding and releasing causing weird noises every time the suspension moves, and also creating a stiffer spring effect(I'm ditching them for Kings this summer), and my dual rate stops are not too far from ride height, maybe a couple inches(which is more than a couple inches of suspension travel). Because I also tested the articulation with the upper link removed and the coil springs were limiting the articulation before the bushing bind was for my setup with the 43" arms and 10" of inward angle. (I have 8" if vertical separation at the axle and poly bushings). I think if it was setup really soft (I have 450/300) the bushing would be the limit, but right now they aren't. I guess I am saying it doesn't work like a sway bar as much as I thought it would, I thought it would be worse. But no doubt there has to be some stress on the axle during articulation.

I drive one handed all the time, on road and off road. So from my limited experience caster is much more important than roll steer, although proper roll steer should be a goal no doubt.

When ORD was doing the very first mock-up of their 4 link, I was helping after work one night and we couldn't make the the axle move into articulation with heims, then with a poly bushing on one end it would move a bit then when all of the ends were changed to a bushing type joint it could articulate a bit without being forced. In a nut shell you get articulation in a radius arm or four link setup from the bushing compliance mostly.

I think you probably have a bunch of things helping you out with your setup, your spring rate is stiff, we are going down to something like 150, 200 on the front of the race car. It's lighter than a full body but not much, keep in mind one 3" 5 tube bypass weighs like 40lbs so we have some heft. Car weighs in over 5,000# starting line weight real easy.

You have radius arms, and the stop nuts engaging a stiff spring after a few inches of travel. Lot's of caster also is a big deal, when we were seting up the new axle for the car Stephen and I both spent a lot of time asking trusted sources what we should use as a good starting spot, the general feelings were 6 degrees min. 8 to 10 degrees would probably be where we ended up and 12 degrees would be a lot. We run 8 right now and have thought about going to 6 and testing that, We have a lot of self centering right now, which is good in some ways but bad in others.

I have a question for you Brandon?

Whats the deal with all the circle jerk references, you in the dog house????:haha:

Well my wife did just pop out a kid a few months ago:whistle: but really it's a good way to get the point across that when doing your first link suspension on the front you will be going in circles and dealing with a bunch of bs and feel like you aren't getting anywhere.

And KOH season is upon us so the Dog house is going to be getting a little extra lovin for the next month. :waytogo:
 
Status update:

Looks like the magic number for front suspension bump travel is 4.5"

I have three simultaneous collisions at that value... Pumpkin to PS frame rail, pumpkin to oil pan, and upper link bracket to engine block.

I could fight really hard for maybe an extra 1/2" of bump travel but that's going to be the absolute limit with the ride height I've got.


-G
 
4.5 Inches, That's not a lot, I understand the limits on the up side so I woulnd't fight to hard for that last 1/2" myself.

IMO 5.5" is about minimum for general use, you might consider raising the ride height an inch for that travel but that's a down the road deal.

Start thinking 2.5" dia, 2" stroke air bumps my friend.
 
Measured where?

From the lower link mount bolt center.

That's straight up on both sides, not articulated.

I guess I still have an option to raise the engine by 1"... :thinking: that would get me to 5.5" with only a small notch required in the underside of the PS frame rail. My engine is only at 0.5* of rake currently so I could afford to angle it a bit more.

I realize that I'm increasing my CG a bit by lifting the motor, but it might be. worthwhile trade off for the suspension travel. :dunno:

-G
 
If you really want more uptravel thats better than raising the entire vehicle height, except maybe for the front CV angle.
 
If you really want more uptravel thats better than raising the entire vehicle height, except for the front CV angle.
Yup.

I didn't want to suggest that but if it will work with the hood height than I would look that way. If that does work why not shoot for 6 or even seven inches of travel? How much frame has to go then?

Or raise the engine some and the ride height a little and get there?

Greg keep in mind we only run between 7" and 8" of bump travel on our stuff so 5.5" to 6" will work but 7" starts to really work well.
 
From the lower link mount bolt center.

That's straight up on both sides, not articulated.

I guess I still have an option to raise the engine by 1"... :thinking: that would get me to 5.5" with only a small notch required in the underside of the PS frame rail. My engine is only at 0.5* of rake currently so I could afford to angle it a bit more.

I realize that I'm increasing my CG a bit by lifting the motor, but it might be. worthwhile trade off for the suspension travel. :dunno:

-G

I would do the motor raise if it could be done without much trouble too.

But measured in what would be the same place on Horton I only have 3" of up and I would like to have more for high speed wumpin but measured there you are going to have a ton of flex at the wheel wells.

Which may lead to body interference

Raising the motor an inch I bet doesn't even change your COG by a 1/4 inch
 
Ok,

Motor up 1" and a small frame notch gets me to 5.5" bump travel.

I'm hitting the oil pan again, so I either need to clearance the pan or raise the motor 1/2" more to get to 6".

Not sure how much room is around the crank / oil pan area for clearance. I don't need much... So I might be able to eek something out there?

Circle jerk indeed. :)
 

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