'72 K5 - Greg's @MightAsWellK5 Build

[Greg72]

Touche!

You got me there....I'll admit the thought of just mounting a tire "just to see" never really even crossed my mind. I do have my 5th tire (unmounted) hiding out in the basement doing nothing. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to just get it mounted and see how bad (or good!) it actually looks on there....

-G

 

[82355]

You should buy a tire machine, then it is easy! I stumbled across a broken one the Snap On guy had taken in on trade in several years ago. I bought it for a couple hundred bucks, and it took me ten minutes, and two bolts to fix it.

Martin

 

[ktmoutfront]

The other good thing about wide tires on narrow wheels, work almost like bead locks. hard to break a bead when the tires are aired down.

 

[82355]

Correct.

Martin

 

[autumnwalker]

Wow. I just went through every single page of this thread. Beautiful, inspirational work.

Is there a definitive source for the 3 and 4 link Excel models somewhere? I found some threads on PBB, but I want to be sure that I have the latest and true models before I go plugging numbers into them.

EDIT: I cannot believe it has almost been one year since I registered on this forum and this is my first post! I was looking at K5's last year and ended up being unsuccessful. They are rare beasts in my neck of the woods.

 

[chulisohombre]

Ok struts make more sence with the amount of movement you're going to
Have. I was thinking some kind of coilover or something. You got some beef in this setup but jumping the truck like ktm would be fun and show you your weeknesses as well.

 

[Greg72]

Wow. I just went through every single page of this thread. Beautiful, inspirational work.

Is there a definitive source for the 3 and 4 link Excel models somewhere? I found some threads on PBB, but I want to be sure that I have the latest and true models before I go plugging numbers into them.

EDIT: I cannot believe it has almost been one year since I registered on this forum and this is my first post! I was looking at K5's last year and ended up being unsuccessful. They are rare beasts in my neck of the woods.

Triaged hosts the calculators on his website, they haven't changed much in the last several years. Basically, they were solid once they were released to the public. No major updates have been released for a LONG time... Though I did rework the 4-link calculator extensively a couple of years ago for my own purposes.

Here's the update from last night.... Burned the midnight oil again!

Pulled the motor to gain access to the inner framerail so that the notch could be added to the frame (for upper link mount bolt clearance). Basically that area is already 1/4" thick all the way through, so by cutting a square piece of 3-1/2" x .250" wall tube (lengthwise) and finessing it in there, everything stayed nice and strong.

After dressing the welds and smoothing everything out, it got a fresh coat of Ryoken green, and the motor was reinstalled....

Just before the motor went back in, I made a few other small tweaks in areas where clearance was tight... The hope was to get everything perfect so that the axle could be brought up to the 29" value on both sides...... It ALMOST got there. The final numbers were 29" PS & 28-3/4" DS. The pumpkin still hits the oilpan, but that is the only remaining interference at this point. A tiny amount of additional dimpling on the pan should get the job done.

With that complete, it will be time to fully cycle the suspension again (same process as before) to see if the new PHB mounts screwed up anything else.... If that all checks out, it will be time to cycle the PS and see how well that new frame notch does its job!

-G

 

[Greg72]

2013.07.21 - UPDATE! - PERFECT EQUALITY...

There wasn't a whole lot of time in the shop, but there were enough hours to tweak the PHB and draglink lengths to make them identical. Previously the PHB was 37" and the draglink was at 43". It was going to be tough to just slap that extra 6" on one end of a bracket, so the idea was to try to finesse a couple of inches into each bracket and hopefully pull 2" out of the draglink without affecting the operation of the idler itself.

First step. Lengthening the axle side PHB bracket. Due to the kind of length that was being added, the heim wouldn't clear the steering arm anymore. So the mount had to be raised a tad so that the steering arm could pass directly underneath under hard turns.

Here's a shot of the "before" and "after" mounting holes...

Added 2" to the PHB and remounted it to see how the steering arm clears under hard left turns... (this location NEVER would have worked with a straight PHB, the 7* bend makes a huge difference)

A slightly different angle, but it really shows just how FAR out on the axletube this mount has gone. It's just about aligned with the upper kingpin pivot location!





So far so good.... Time to move to the frame-side mount and add 2" there also.

Had to make a small mod to the DS steering arm to allow full uptravel now that the heim was sticking so much further out than before.... But after adding another 2" to the PHB (now at 41" vs. 37") the end results were good.

...and a little different view at full-lock (hard right) to show how tightly all the DS components are packing into that space...

Another photo, a little further back at full bump.......




The last step was to remove and cut down the draglink by 2".... It was clear if this was going to limit the amount of steering or not (before the idler hit the frame) but luck was on my side and it worked out perfectly!

So... The PHB and draglink are now both officially at 41" so bumpsteer should be almost completely undetectable. Suspension-wise there are a few remaining interferences, but the next step is to set the axle at ride height and recheck that it is still plumb and square to the frame after these last mods. There's no point in fighting for clearance if the axle isn't truly in the correct spot yet.

.....things are getting closer and closer!


-G

 

[Z71paramedic]

If this truck isn't on the cover of at least two magazines when you're finished I'll be shocked!

Incredible work as usual Greg. Glad it's not fighting you too bad anymore. Hopefully you get it dialed in all the way shortly and can burn everything in permanently

 

[colbystephens]

Do you have a plan for how you're going to methodically go through and do all your finish welding? I'd be afraid I'd forget to finish welding some important part... I understand why you have to have stuff tacked at this point, but WOW there's a lot to weld!

 

[AJs72K5]

Do you have a plan for how you're going to methodically go through and do all your finish welding? I'd be afraid I'd forget to finish welding some important part... I understand why you have to have stuff tacked at this point, but WOW there's a lot to weld!

He's probably already got it written down in a notebook somewhere....

 

[Deuling]

Spreadsheet

 

[Greg72]

Do you have a plan for how you're going to methodically go through and do all your finish welding? I'd be afraid I'd forget to finish welding some important part... I understand why you have to have stuff tacked at this point, but WOW there's a lot to weld!

Colby,

Yes there is a LOT of finish welding to do!

There is also a substantial amount of "rebuilding" bracketry from the ugly mock-up, frankenstein-looking stuff I've got going on now into something that will actually be functional and strong enough to work on the finished project. The axle-side PHB is a good example. That thing is really delicate right now, but based on it's current location it seems like it's going to become part of a larger assembly that will also include the lower strut mount and carry across the top of the knuckle area.

I apologize that the updates recently probably have a very repetitive feel and seem to be plodding along at a snail's pace... however, this is truly representative of what it seems to take to get a linked suspension laid-out and into position correctly. There is SO much tedious checking and re-checking of dimensions, moving of parts and re-moving of those same parts a few steps later that it really is a test of patience and perserverance.

It helps to think of this process like a sort of mechanical Soduku puzzle. Each part that is moved or shifted creates some opportunities, but also closes-off other avenues to a possible solution. To get to the end, you have to be willing to let each experiment play out but always have your eyes on the final outcome so that each iteration gets you closer and closer to that goal.

After spending a few dozen hours at this front suspension mock-up work, it has become obvious why the "pro" shops build their suspensions at "full-stuff" from the beginning.... that's where all the problems show up, so it makes sense to start with the worst-case scenario and see where the links can actually fit. Of course, you can also get burned on the cycling and during steering checks, but it seems like most of the worst problems were discovered at 6" of bump travel on both sides.


-G

 

[Greg72]

LAST NIGHT'S PROGRESS....


Got the suspension down to exactly 23" on each side again (actual ride height of the lower link mount bolts) and double-checked all the measurements now that the PHB is at 41" instead of 37". Things had drifted slightly since the big "Day of Cycling" occurred, so it took about an hour to get the axle moved back (~1/4"), and slightly toward the driver's side (~1/8"). At that point, the front suspension looked like this:

FINAL FRONT SUSPENSION RIDE HEIGHT AND PHB ANGLE!!!


Took a measurement off the PHB (actually, it's not possible to lay a digital angle finder on it anymore since it's bent....needed to use a straightedge across the heims!) and the overall angle of the PHB came in at 4.8* which is pretty nice and shallow. Obviously, this establishes the angle for the draglink, and since the steering arm side of the draglink is also "permanent" now, and adjustments will be accomplished by raising (or lowering) the idler mount bracket on the frame.... as an FYI, the current angle of the draglink in this photo is 3.5* so the idler will need to go up slightly to match the new 4.8* target value.

The next order of business was to see what could be done about relocating the steering box from it's initial "slap it on there" location to a more practical spot further back toward the firewall. As Eric mentioned earlier, if you crowd the steering box too close to the radiator support, most likely there are going to be interference issues. To understand just how far it could be moved it was time to get the pitman arm cut and sized for this application....



The approach with this idler steering setup is to keep things as simple as possible. There are only two dimensions that are used to transfer motion around from the steering box to the wheels.

5.5" <- This is the dimension of the original pitman arm that was on this box, so it seemed like a good value to use again. (Except this time it would be made completely FLAT, with no drop in the arm) This is also the dimension (5.5") of the upper mounting hole on the idler arm. There is no ratio-change as the motion of the pitman arm moves the idler.

8.0" <- This is the dimension of the new steering arms that were built for the 404 knuckles. This was a quasi-scientific value based on what others have done for hi-steer D60 type steering setups, so it seemed like a good "not to short & not too long" value. This is also the dimension of the LOWER mounting hole of the idler arm... so again, there are no additional ratio changes going on except for the one transition necessary to convert the 5.5" pitman arm to the 8" steering arm motion.

Here is a shot of the modified idler arm with the two new dimensions (5.5" & 8.0" hole spacings) still at the 3.5* overall slope... there is quite a bit of room for this to move up vertically, and there is even some room to go back (toward the firewall) if that improves the steering box positioning and/or anglularity of the small steering "stub" that will connect the pitman arm to the idler arm.



Last shot is of the steering box in a better location (though still not final). This is about 5" further back from where it has been for the last several weeks.




More shop time tonight!.... hopefully it will be possible to get a steering box location finalized and get the draglink angle matched up to the PHB. Then it will be "cycle time" all over again.

-G

 

[NorCal69]

Good to see ya pushing along Greg. By now, you must be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Two other things.

1) Nice to see you using some of your not so pretty brackets.

2) We must have bought our C clamps at the same spot. Mine has the same "S" shaped handle as yours.

 

[Greg72]

Good to see ya pushing along Greg. By now, you must be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Two other things.

1) Nice to see you using some of your not so pretty brackets.

2) We must have bought our C clamps at the same spot. Mine has the same "S" shaped handle as yours.

Steering boxes are some of the clumsiest objects to work with, I swear!

The large diameter at the bottom of the box keeps it from laying flat against the frame, so the 3 mounting tabs NEVER actually touch the frame when you need them to....basically just about the time it's aligned half-way decent, it slips out-of-position before you can get a clamp on it and half the time ends up on your toes or the floor!!!

Tonight I am definitely building a spacer to go between the box and the frame to make it easier to manage. Also, that one long bolt that I use to "hang" the box across the top of the framerail is becoming a problem too....the box could certainly be mounted lower on the framerail but that bolt keeps forcing me to hold it up too high.

Anyone with "tricks of the trade" on steering box positioning is certainly welcome to chime in here. I don't need any more black toenails!....

-G

 

[jekquistk5]

Greg, at any given time what do you have for steel laying around? You must have over full sheet of 1/4 laying around. Or do you buy sections as needed? I really get bummed out having to run to stores on lunch breaks to get steel, and other parts.


One thing I have learned from this build, is to be patient and do not rush things. And having a big welder and a plasma cutter is a must! Now to convince the wife to allow me to buy a plasma cutter

 

[Greg72]

Greg, at any given time what do you have for steel laying around? You must have over full sheet of 1/4 laying around. Or do you buy sections as needed? I really get bummed out having to run to stores on lunch breaks to get steel, and other parts.


One thing I have learned from this build, is to be patient and do not rush things. And having a big welder and a plasma cutter is a must! Now to convince the wife to allow me to buy a plasma cutter

I usually buy 2' x 4' sheets of 1/8", 1/4" and I just bought my first sheet of 3/8" a while back.... that's about all I can reasonably work with in terms of size. Whatever I buy has to fit in the back of my wife's LandCrusier to get it back home, so there's a practical consideration there as well.

It seems like I go through the 1/4" the most quickly these days.... I may have bought two 2' x 4' sheets of that originally knowing that almost all of my tabs, link mounts and axle trusses would be built from 1/4" plate.

There is a local steel place, and I've got a pretty good working relationship with them. If I find I'm running out of something they can usually have it brought in and cut to my preferred size in a couple of days. Saves me a fortune on shipping costs and there's no sales tax here either!

Plasma is a luxury item, but without it this build would be a LOT slower than it already is....

-G

 

[Stomis]

Steering boxes are some of the clumsiest objects to work with, I swear!

The large diameter at the bottom of the box keeps it from laying flat against the frame, so the 3 mounting tabs NEVER actually touch the frame when you need them to....basically just about the time it's aligned half-way decent, it slips out-of-position before you can get a clamp on it and half the time ends up on your toes or the floor!!!

Tonight I am definitely building a spacer to go between the box and the frame to make it easier to manage. Also, that one long bolt that I use to "hang" the box across the top of the framerail is becoming a problem too....the box could certainly be mounted lower on the framerail but that bolt keeps forcing me to hold it up too high.

Anyone with "tricks of the trade" on steering box positioning is certainly welcome to chime in here. I don't need any more black toenails!....

-G

Unfortunately there is no trick I know of with a sag box for mock up. If you've ever looked at my build thread all I did to give the clearance on the body was put mounting sleeves through the frame and stand the box off the frame about 3/4 of an inch.

The only solution is to use a toyota truck or landcruiser style box. They mount flush right on the side of the frame rail. But I think you're well beyond that now.

Ive got my eyes peeled on this steering setup. And good to see you got that panhard bar packaged longer!

 

[blazinzuk]

Greg I used plumbers tape a lot with steering boxes, have also made large clamps out of some old shackles and some all thread.

One time I actually tack welded the box to some 2x2 square tube then tack welded that to my floor jack.

I know what you mean about steering boxes super clumsy.

Jess if you have to get a cheap plasma for now man. I have been running a cheap chinese plasma for a while. If its the choice between none and a cheapie you gotta gotta have one