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Awesome work Greg. I've been quietly watching trying to learn. I don't want congest your thread with more compliments but BIG PROUDS. :waytogo:

One concern with the last set of pics. In the 2nd to last pic it appears your tire may contact the PHB at full lock. I hope I'm wrong.
 
I do like my "PROUDS"..... thanks!

You're definitely right about the tire problem. What I never explained was that the wheel you see in those photos isn't actually finish-welded yet. The center is simply pressed into the hoop with a super-aggressive offset (currently).

At some point I will take careful measurements of the original H2 wheels to understand what my backspacing was, then transfer that to the new (wider) wheel and see where that puts me for clearances. Ideally, I'd like to pull the wheel really tight toward the steering arms to keep the scrub radius to an absolute minimum. The offset you see there is so radical that it only has about a 1/8" gap between the rim and the steering arm.... once a tire is mounted, the bulging sidewall is sure to rub.

The final trick in my arsenal would be to machine up some thicker hub spacers. A few years ago when I bought the eXaXt 8-Lug conversion parts, they came with a 1" thick spacer for each wheel... several months back I had those machined down to 3/8" thickness to pull the H2 wheels in tighter. If I get too aggressive with my "new build" wheels and need clearance, I can always go back to a slightly thicker spacer and do all of fine-tuning with that.

Later though..... quite a bit later.


-G
 
Greg a couple things jump out at me....

1) I know the old brackets are scrap, but why aren't they organized nicely in a cronological order to show the progression of the end result?
2) As nicely packaged as you have all the steering links/control arms/link bars/etc. where are the shocks being mounted? looking kinda tight in some of the pics.
3) Did you see the portal conversion on the SuperDirty in 4WOR this month?
4) The BIG hubcaps make it work....the little ones I'm not a big fan of, but the BIG ones....yeah!
5) And awesomeness and inspiration abounds in this thread....thanks for documenting so well.
 
Where did you get those wheel hoops?

Martin


Martin,

I'll post up the complete process, part numbers and details once I get the first wheel built and confirm that everything works the way I want. There have been quite a few false-starts on that whole "17 inch 8-lug wheel with a hubcap" effort so it makes sense to get it right first. :waytogo:

Greg a couple things jump out at me....

1) I know the old brackets are scrap, but why aren't they organized nicely in a cronological order to show the progression of the end result?
2) As nicely packaged as you have all the steering links/control arms/link bars/etc. where are the shocks being mounted? looking kinda tight in some of the pics.
3) Did you see the portal conversion on the SuperDirty in 4WOR this month?
4) The BIG hubcaps make it work....the little ones I'm not a big fan of, but the BIG ones....yeah!
5) And awesomeness and inspiration abounds in this thread....thanks for documenting so well.

Zim,

1. That would be fun, but many of the brackets were "re-purposed" along the way to become other brackets and were scabbed together with other things. I think at least one frame-side PHB bracket became part of the axle side PHB "frankenstein" part. :D

2. Here's where I think it will end up going (yellow dot is the lower strut mount, yellow line is the bolt)...

IMG_6210e.jpg


If it won't clear the frame there while cycling, I can move that lower mount outward (up toward the inner "C" area) and it should be able to find a home somewhere in that area...

3. Nope. All of my magazine subscriptions expired so I never bothered to renew.

4. I didn't even know that there were two sizes until I started buying caps and realized that the 1/2 and 3/4-Ton stuff was only 10-3/4" across and wouldn't fit an 8-lug wheel. Fortunately, they aren't too expensive so I was able to find a salvageable set of 12" ones on eBay that work and give the wheel (And truck) the right look. IMHO

5. Thank you buddy. I definitely appreciate all of the compliments, prouds and suggestions... and it keeps me motivated to soldier on, even when I'm building parts for the 7th or 8th time. :doah:



Me also....

I want a 20" disk grinder too. :p: Tired of your awesome brackets, while mine look quite, well, not so/as awesome. :o

Nice job plugging away as always. :waytogo:


As far as I'm concerned, the 20" disc grinder is the "final frontier" for metal fabrication. Rob is the guy who first suggested I find a used one and boy do I love it.... the quality is important you want a strong motor so that it won't load up too badly when you are really leaning hard into it with a part. That APEX machine is around $2500 new, but I scored it off a local Craigslister for $500. I'll bet its a lot easier for you to find one in your area, than it was for me to find one in mine.... :whistle: "Hello Dad? I might need another one of those checks......" :haha:



-G
 
4. I didn't even know that there were two sizes until I started buying caps and realized that the 1/2 and 3/4-Ton stuff was only 10-3/4" across and wouldn't fit an 8-lug wheel. Fortunately, they aren't too expensive so I was able to find a salvageable set of 12" ones on eBay that work and give the wheel (And truck) the right look. IMHO

Actually only the half tons use the small hub cap.

Martin
 
2013.08.08 - UPDATE! - I AM AN IDIOT...... :mad:


Some garage days are just the worst.

Last night I hadn't been in the shop for more than 3 minutes, breaking loose the very first bolt of the evening and the wrench slips and smashes my finger.

I said bad words.

Moving on from that it seemed like a good time to just put the old wheels and tires on the axle and start looking at clearances around the various parts just to confirm that nothing had gone horribly wrong. It didn't take long to see that a few "tweaks" were going to be necessary if I wanted to tighten the wheels all the way down to the hubs.... this happened about 1/2" before the wheels were seated properly:

Oooops....

IMG_6249.jpg


Not a real big issue. I'd built those steering arm plates a little long on purpose just to be safe, so I nipped the offending corners off on each side and the tires bolted up fine (good enough for now anyway). Right about this time is when my frustration really started to surface....

For many days and weeks now, I've been telling all of you about my 23" lower link bolt measurement being my "reference" for ride height. Well, for some reason when I went to mount the wheels the wheel studs seemed awfully high compared to the wheel I was trying to mount. :confused::doah: Um, yeah..... so it turns out that the true ride height value for that lower link bolt isn't 23".....it's 21.5". :whistle:

Yep, I'm an idiot.

Thinking back, I have no idea how the value got so messed up. I remember checking and double-checking everything and even compensating for the slope in the floor when I first leveled the frame and front axle. It's still a mystery how it became so far off, but the discrepancy is not trivial. I pulled some new measurements off the axle to plug into the 3-Link Calculator to find out just how much damage had been done with my bad values. The anti-squat (Anti-Dive actually since it's the front axle) was over 100% instead of 70% where I'd planned for it to be, but miraculously the roll understeer was still intact and most other attributes were pretty decent. It looks like I can raise the frame-side upper link mount by about 1.5" and the AS% will drop right back down to where it was before this whole mess was discovered..... maybe that's a bit of "good karma" coming back my way? :dunno:

EDIT: My current hypothesis about the bad lower link value is that the measurement was taken when the front axle had zero caster (another accidental oversight) As the axle was rotated backward to achieve 8* of postive caster, it is plausible that the lower link bracket could move downward by 1.5" and throw off my numbers... :thinking:

In any case, I pressed forward. Turns out pblaze725 called it correctly about the PHB mount creating an interference point with the inside tire sidewall. The forward-most heim bracket was modified to give it more clearance on the radius as a starting point, but that wasn't enough to get me to the steering stops. Ultimately, the PHB had to be shortened by 1" (from 41" to 40") and both heim brackets were shortened as well to shift them away from the tire.

You can see the asymetry in the link brackets pretty well in this photo.

IMG_6255.jpg


From the top view (see photo below) you can see that the large triangular mounting plate is still at full length (1" too long under the heim area) but it will be trimmed back later and doesn't hit anything at this point.

IMG_6258.jpg


One very cool (and completely accidental) effect is the way the steering knuckle heim and brackets pass perfectly underneath the large triangluar PHB plate. At first when you see the setup it looks like everything is on the same plane, but as the tire starts to turn left, the SAI of the kingpins cause the steering heim (and draglink heim) to start angling downward as they travel across that area....by the time you'd expect them to collide, the heims just slide right down underneath with maybe 1/4" clearance to spare. It's VERY cool... :waytogo: (at least I think so)

Final shot of the evening. Full steering lock with no interferences.... Ackerman steering effect is quite easy to see in this image. Inside tire is cranking super-tight compared to the outside tire.

IMG_6253.jpg


Next steps will probably be pulling the tires/wheels back off and cycling the suspension again just to see if I can get full suspension travel this time around.

Interestingly...... since I had been assuming that my ride height was at 23" (lower link mount) and had been fighting for clearance all the way up to 29" (6" of bump) it will hopefully be easier to get everything to clear now.... my new maximum bump travel value should only be 27.5" now. Last time around I had a pretty easy time getting to that value and all of the struggling was in the 28" - 29" range where this axle should never be anyway. We'll see.... :dunno:


-G
 
Hopefully it will all just fall together now!
 
Your optimism makes me giggle.


I wish it were that easy, but history seems to indicate that there will still be plenty of pain and suffering before this is all said and done.




-G
 
In your latest setup I see the PHB and the tie rod but no drag link. Isn't there 1 more bar supposed to be going across there, or am I just not seeing it in the pics?

*edit* I mean steering arm... I think.
 
In your latest setup I see the PHB and the tie rod but no drag link. Isn't there 1 more bar supposed to be going across there, or am I just not seeing it in the pics?

*edit* I mean steering arm... I think.

Yes, you are correct.

The draglink (the one that runs diagonally across from the idler arm on the DS to the PS steering arm) is not mounted in these photos... a few days back, you might remember that I fought and fought to make sure that both of them were the same 41" length so that I wouldn't have any bumpsteer??

Based on last night's mods, it looks like the draglink needs to get 1" shorter when I mount it back up again.

Also, now that my axle is TRULY at ride height (21.5") the PHB angle is 5.01* and not the 2.4* I was bragging about a few posts back. I'll need to insure that the draglink also matches that angle....again for the prevention of bumpsteer.

I'm not really too worried about being able to get the draglink angled perfectly. With the idler arm, I get quite a bit more flexibility in where I mount things vs. a conventional crossover steering setup where the pitman arm establishes the angle and "you get what you get" as far as the angle is concerned.



-G
 
gotcha. I was just counting bars in one of your pics the other day and was thinking that with the new bracket one wasn't accounted for yet so I was curious. :)
 
What about your front calipers? I recall them being.....large. Will the bracketry clear with them on too?
 
What about your front calipers? I recall them being.....large. Will the bracketry clear with them on too?

Calipers hang on the trailing edge of the rotor (behind the hub toward the rear axle) so it should not be an issue.... But with the way my brain has been malfunctioning lately it's anyone's guess! :haha:


-G
 
Yep, that's a problem too. :D

The new wheels are wider by 1" but the offset is still TBD, the final adjustments can be fine-tuned with the hub spacers if needed. I'm currently running with a 3/8" thick one, but could go thicker later on if the new wheels and tires don't clear as well as the current H2s.....

There is some risk, but ultimately it seems to be fairly small and manageable compared to other concerns at this point.


-G
 
A few more updates....

The 3-Link Calculator has been getting workout lately, and all of the temporary "orange cell" values have been slowly transformed to their permanent "green cell" values as each permanent bracket is built and installed on the front suspension.

The lower axle-side link mounts up until this point had just been a simple single-shear tab, so it was time to build something in that position that would actually hold up to real life driving. Since the outer "C" is a bolt-on part, it was important to me that I not build bracketry that locked the inner mounting plate and outer "C" together permanently.

After some head scratching, it made sense to extend the large PHB plate just a bit further and then mount the vertical link mount tabs to it.

4B510FCA-3A04-4D4A-A8B5-58C6B98B61F4-15952-00001646575A84AE.jpg


Here's a shot of that same area from the underside.

CC146879-A4E3-426C-BC0A-A42DF82E1135-15952-00001646C63630F1.jpg


You can see that the bracket will weld to the CNC'ed inner mount but will not prevent me from unbolting the inner "C" if I ever needed to.

Another shot from further back. This one shows the relative position of the lower links to the driveshaft (white PVC pipe) and the location of the upper link. There is 11" of vertical separation between the upper and lower links, which seems like a lot but for a 3-link, the forces are a lot higher than a typical 4-link so the extra separation helps keep the loads reasonable...

6F705470-8871-43F1-B1BD-9EFEB1C0E26F-15952-00001646A7908792.jpg


Finally, from even FURTHER back... The latest iteration of the calculator told me to get the lower links (frame side) pushed out to 10" apart, instead of 6" apart.

85DB1967-6636-45AF-8D0F-06FC86574F0F-15952-0000164681C9FF74.jpg



The progress has been pretty slow.... (I know, I know). I will probably end up cutting a fresh PHB plate out of one continuous piece of 1/4" sheet once I know for sure that the shape is in final form. It would look nicer than having a bunch of smaller parts scabbed together, and will be stronger too.

-G
 
Sweet pics from the under side. How many hours do you think that you have laying on your back under the rig? With this pace, I'm starting to think that you might be taking a couple of naps down there though. :wink1: :tongue1:


Remember, there is only 1868 days left. :waytogo:



Oh, looks good too. :D
 

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