My room mate (years ago) made wooden platforms that were the same height as his four corner scales. He would jack his IMCA Modified up, set it on the wood platforms, and then roll it onto the scales.
Martin
Martin
CK5
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'72 K5 - Greg's @MightAsWellK5 Build
- Thread starter Greg72
- Start date
This is the build description. I will improve this later. (GB)
That's basically the plan. The pads are 1.25" thick so having a gentle ramp up... then a nice landing area before the scale itself will give room to settle the suspension fully... then gently roll the truck forward onto the actual scales. Maybe an integral wheel chock at the end of the scale so that the truck can't accidentally roll off the pads.......out of the garage.....down the driveway..... and into the neighbors flower beds!!!
Actually, the biggest challenge is also incorporating the slope of the floor into the ramps. Each ramp could be individually build to precisely match the floor and would be "corner-specific" at that point and would also need to be placed on the floor on the exact same spot each time... so the floor would need to be marked out in some permanent way to make the whole setup process fully repeatable and reliable.
Thinking about it now, but no lightbulb moment as of yet.
-G
I think with independent suspension that is more important to roll it around some, because the suspension cycles in a sideways arc as it is compressed, so not being able to slide would impact the settling. With solid axles there should not be any side loading of the scale and if one axle is in "park" and the other free to roll it should be pretty darn close. You could just step in and out of the vehicle on each side to make sure it is settled without rolling it around.
Is the nitrogen and tire pressure in your shocks even pressure? Because that should make more of a difference in corner weights than the floor being off 1/4" or something when the 4 corners are sitting on a spring.
If its sitting on the solid stops, then that would make a huge difference just a tiny amount of error, and is totally understandable.
Is the nitrogen and tire pressure in your shocks even pressure? Because that should make more of a difference in corner weights than the floor being off 1/4" or something when the 4 corners are sitting on a spring.
If its sitting on the solid stops, then that would make a huge difference just a tiny amount of error, and is totally understandable.
Yep. The struts were empty (no nitrogen) and sitting on their internal bumpstops...
So I'd guess that the total weight of 4245 is accurate but would not put any particular weight (pun intended) on the cross-weights or other specific details yet...
Interestingly, when this Blazer was very new to me in around 2001 it was weighed at a race shop and got the following numbers:
Total Weight: 4816
LF: 1113
RF: 1285
LR: 1297
RR: 1121
F/R %: 49.79% / 50.21%
That was on 35s with 4" lift springs, factory hardtop installed, 4-point cage and 1/2-Ton axles.
-G
A long overdue thankyou, I have followed along without comment, but your work has inspired me to think through whatever project I am tackling, deepen skills and achieve a better result. Ethically I don't involve myself with facebook, in addition I have always found forums to be superior learning and information tools. Somewhat limited with CK5 recently as I cannot justify the dollars to access pictures. Greg, once gain my thanks for all the years of contribution and my best wishes for the future- Cheers David
Thank you David.
Really appreciate hearing this kind of feedback. It is much more enjoyable to be part of a two-way conversation than simply broadcasting information out onto the internet and wondering if anyone even notices...
-G
Bookmarked for later (July 17, 2002): https://ck5.com/forums/threads/28-days-to-moab.44544/
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2023.07.04 - UPDATE! - MULTI-PART UPDATE....
OK, time for the annual July 4th build update.
The last 12 months have been filled with lots of changes and forward progress on the MightAsWellK5. It's going to take several posts to get through all of this so please be patient as I organize thousands of photos and try to explain everything that has been happening...
When we last checked-in, the main efforts were around getting space for the hydroboost and framerail headers. The amount of effort and time required to hand-render the parts proved to be the last straw, and a major decision was made to move the capability of the shop forward. There had to be a faster way to revise and test designs and if this truck was EVER going to run under it's own power again, something drastic had to happen.
An order (backorder actually) was placed with Langmuir Systems for a complete 4' x 3' CNC Plasma Table solution... which arrived in early September of last year.
The kit was very complete, and the support for this product both from the company and the internet enthusiast groups is phenomenal. It's also at a price point that makes it untouchable by any other "hobbyist" machine out there.
One of the hardest parts of adding this new tool to the workshop was learning all the new software for drawing and CNC cutting. This was my first time creating G-Code so it was a pretty slow process initially. Started off with a very simple goal of cutting out a plate with the layout of the GMT-800 steering box bolts
And eventually, the machine was working as expected and cutting out parts WAAAY faster than I could have ever hoped to do manually.... with much higher accuracy as well (obviously)
Having this machine was clearly going to be a game changer.......
STAY TUNED FOR PART 2.....3.....4......5
-G
OK, time for the annual July 4th build update.
The last 12 months have been filled with lots of changes and forward progress on the MightAsWellK5. It's going to take several posts to get through all of this so please be patient as I organize thousands of photos and try to explain everything that has been happening...When we last checked-in, the main efforts were around getting space for the hydroboost and framerail headers. The amount of effort and time required to hand-render the parts proved to be the last straw, and a major decision was made to move the capability of the shop forward. There had to be a faster way to revise and test designs and if this truck was EVER going to run under it's own power again, something drastic had to happen.
An order (backorder actually) was placed with Langmuir Systems for a complete 4' x 3' CNC Plasma Table solution... which arrived in early September of last year.
The kit was very complete, and the support for this product both from the company and the internet enthusiast groups is phenomenal. It's also at a price point that makes it untouchable by any other "hobbyist" machine out there.
One of the hardest parts of adding this new tool to the workshop was learning all the new software for drawing and CNC cutting. This was my first time creating G-Code so it was a pretty slow process initially. Started off with a very simple goal of cutting out a plate with the layout of the GMT-800 steering box bolts
And eventually, the machine was working as expected and cutting out parts WAAAY faster than I could have ever hoped to do manually.... with much higher accuracy as well (obviously)
Having this machine was clearly going to be a game changer.......
STAY TUNED FOR PART 2.....3.....4......5
-G
bp71k5
3/4 ton status
Alright!
I've been wanting to buy that same system. It's on my Christmas list hopefully.2023.07.04 - UPDATE! - MULTI-PART UPDATE....
OK, time for the annual July 4th build update.
When we last checked-in, the main efforts were around getting space for the hydroboost and framerail headers. The amount of effort and time required to hand-render the parts proved to be the last straw, and a major decision was made to move the capability of the shop forward. There had to be a faster way to revise and test designs and if this truck was EVER going to run under it's own power again, something drastic had to happen.
An order (backorder actually) was placed with Langmuir Systems for a complete 4' x 3' CNC Plasma Table solution... which arrived in early September of last year.
View attachment 451344
The kit was very complete, and the support for this product both from the company and the internet enthusiast groups is phenomenal. It's also at a price point that makes it untouchable by any other "hobbyist" machine out there.
View attachment 451345
View attachment 451346
View attachment 451348
View attachment 451349
One of the hardest parts of adding this new tool to the workshop was learning all the new software for drawing and CNC cutting. This was my first time creating G-Code so it was a pretty slow process initially. Started off with a very simple goal of cutting out a plate with the layout of the GMT-800 steering box bolts
View attachment 451354
And eventually, the machine was working as expected and cutting out parts WAAAY faster than I could have ever hoped to do manually.... with much higher accuracy as well (obviously)
View attachment 451355
View attachment 451357
View attachment 451358
Having this machine was clearly going to be a game changer.......
STAY TUNED FOR PART 2.....3.....4......5
-G
I've seen what you can do without one, I can't wait to see what you come up with and build WITH one
Hope the "likes or whatever" show you how much I enjoy your updates. Awesome end results, but I really enjoy following along your thought process, skill development, execution, then final product. Thank you for sharing, it's motivating.
Very much this!*
*edit. yes plasma, but the whole package too. Whenever its built, the ride has been very enjoyable.
2023.07.04 - UPDATE! (PART 2) - THE BIG PUSH FOR MOAB....
Getting the CNC Plasma Table assembled and building a custom wheeled base for it took over a month. Taking the baby steps necessary to learn all the software to both draw and cut parts out on it took even longer... and just like TIG welding or English Wheel metalshaping it's a skill that doesn't get better without a LOT of practice. It has been true many times in this build, but the fact is that to go faster with new tools or technology you first have to be willing to go a lot slower initially during that learning process.
Knowing that this slowdown was coming, a decision was made to run a few projects in parallel in an attempt to be more efficient. An obvious (albeit expensive) project that was being avoided was getting the entire drivetrain fully operational... which meant, getting all the new parts for the 502BBC (cam, heads, EFI, etc) installed so that it could finally be started, broken-in properly and have the base map programmed. The 4L80E "core" has been a trusty placeholder of space in this build for years, but was just a dead Craigslist unit that needed to finally be torn down by @Greg Ducato and assembled with the best parts possible to insure that it would hold the power of the big block. The Atlas-4 was also in need of some attention. Although technically "brand new"... it was built in 2006 for this project and many technological and strength upgrades have been made by Advance Adapters in the subsequent years as a result of their experience in KOH racing, etc. So the plan was to send this unit back to the mothership and have them give it a complete inspection and update to the latest an greatest parts.... (more on what actually happened here later in the story)
So this was "gut check" time for sure.... sending all of these parts out for rebuild / refurbishment simultaneously was going to be a huge expenditure, but ultimately the money had to be spent.... so it was either do it fast or do it slowly. At least this way, other parts of the truck could be built and would hopefully be finished when all of this cool stuff started arriving back in the workshop.
THE START:
This is the last moment when the "non functional" drivetrain was still installed as a placeholder in the MightAsWellK5 project.
It was clear that the perimeter frame style of engine cradle was NOT working well... even with attempts to create better clearance for the exhaust headers and brake components it was a losing battle. It was time to acknowledge that the design was simply not correct and come up with something new instead of continuing to fight and waste time trying to cobble a solution together on this one. Having the plasma table in-house emboldened the decision-making for sure. Bend some new tubes, and cut some custom platework... and any revisions needed could happen quickly and efficiently. It was time to embrace the new tools and technology and do something better.
As David @AgDieseler has famously said in the past, you must be willing to "Kill Your Darlings" to grow... so this design was thrown in the "Tuition Pile" to make room for a more enlightened solution.
Easier access with the cherry picker allowed the engine to be pulled out next.
The engine was crated up and shipped to @folkenheath for a complete inspection and rebuild. He has been providing advice and guidance on parts selection for many years which caused the accumulation of many new parts (Brodix heads, EFI, custom ground Lunati cam, etc) and when he offered to take this project into his shop and apply his experience and attention to detail... I could not get it into a plywood crate fast enough!!!
The "core" 4L80E was also pulled for rebuild and a series of conversations with @Greg Ducato helped to figure out exactly what type of build and upgrades would be necessary. Again, relying heavily on his decades of experience... there was no need to do this alone. It would take a few months to get my turn on the assembly bench over at his shop but based on the amount of work that lay ahead, those weeks of waiting would ultimately make no difference to the build schedule. Greg is about 3 hours away in Weatherford, TX but there was no need to deliver the transmission as he had plenty of available cores... so instead of two complete round trips, to get a working transmission... it would only take one.
The Atlas-4 was pulled off the top of the Monolith next (from above) and as also set aside. The next step was to call AdvanceAdapters to get a build plan put together and to ship this unit over to them for a refresh...... (that was the plan anyway.... stay tuned for the dramatic plot twist later)
A top view of the Monolith. This hasen't been visible like this in many years! It also shows the modern Sparco seat rail setup that allows the non-sliding passenger seat to have the same adjustments as the driver side. More legroom, more comfort.
So that's PART 2. Driveline is out.... important components are heading out to their respective specialists, leaving yours truly with more of a "clean sheet" canvas to begin working with until those parts all start returning to the workshop.
Getting the CNC Plasma Table assembled and building a custom wheeled base for it took over a month. Taking the baby steps necessary to learn all the software to both draw and cut parts out on it took even longer... and just like TIG welding or English Wheel metalshaping it's a skill that doesn't get better without a LOT of practice. It has been true many times in this build, but the fact is that to go faster with new tools or technology you first have to be willing to go a lot slower initially during that learning process.
Knowing that this slowdown was coming, a decision was made to run a few projects in parallel in an attempt to be more efficient. An obvious (albeit expensive) project that was being avoided was getting the entire drivetrain fully operational... which meant, getting all the new parts for the 502BBC (cam, heads, EFI, etc) installed so that it could finally be started, broken-in properly and have the base map programmed. The 4L80E "core" has been a trusty placeholder of space in this build for years, but was just a dead Craigslist unit that needed to finally be torn down by @Greg Ducato and assembled with the best parts possible to insure that it would hold the power of the big block. The Atlas-4 was also in need of some attention. Although technically "brand new"... it was built in 2006 for this project and many technological and strength upgrades have been made by Advance Adapters in the subsequent years as a result of their experience in KOH racing, etc. So the plan was to send this unit back to the mothership and have them give it a complete inspection and update to the latest an greatest parts.... (more on what actually happened here later in the story)
So this was "gut check" time for sure.... sending all of these parts out for rebuild / refurbishment simultaneously was going to be a huge expenditure, but ultimately the money had to be spent.... so it was either do it fast or do it slowly. At least this way, other parts of the truck could be built and would hopefully be finished when all of this cool stuff started arriving back in the workshop.
THE START:
This is the last moment when the "non functional" drivetrain was still installed as a placeholder in the MightAsWellK5 project.
It was clear that the perimeter frame style of engine cradle was NOT working well... even with attempts to create better clearance for the exhaust headers and brake components it was a losing battle. It was time to acknowledge that the design was simply not correct and come up with something new instead of continuing to fight and waste time trying to cobble a solution together on this one. Having the plasma table in-house emboldened the decision-making for sure. Bend some new tubes, and cut some custom platework... and any revisions needed could happen quickly and efficiently. It was time to embrace the new tools and technology and do something better.
As David @AgDieseler has famously said in the past, you must be willing to "Kill Your Darlings" to grow... so this design was thrown in the "Tuition Pile" to make room for a more enlightened solution.
Easier access with the cherry picker allowed the engine to be pulled out next.
The engine was crated up and shipped to @folkenheath for a complete inspection and rebuild. He has been providing advice and guidance on parts selection for many years which caused the accumulation of many new parts (Brodix heads, EFI, custom ground Lunati cam, etc) and when he offered to take this project into his shop and apply his experience and attention to detail... I could not get it into a plywood crate fast enough!!!
The "core" 4L80E was also pulled for rebuild and a series of conversations with @Greg Ducato helped to figure out exactly what type of build and upgrades would be necessary. Again, relying heavily on his decades of experience... there was no need to do this alone. It would take a few months to get my turn on the assembly bench over at his shop but based on the amount of work that lay ahead, those weeks of waiting would ultimately make no difference to the build schedule. Greg is about 3 hours away in Weatherford, TX but there was no need to deliver the transmission as he had plenty of available cores... so instead of two complete round trips, to get a working transmission... it would only take one.
The Atlas-4 was pulled off the top of the Monolith next (from above) and as also set aside. The next step was to call AdvanceAdapters to get a build plan put together and to ship this unit over to them for a refresh...... (that was the plan anyway.... stay tuned for the dramatic plot twist later)
A top view of the Monolith. This hasen't been visible like this in many years! It also shows the modern Sparco seat rail setup that allows the non-sliding passenger seat to have the same adjustments as the driver side. More legroom, more comfort.
So that's PART 2. Driveline is out.... important components are heading out to their respective specialists, leaving yours truly with more of a "clean sheet" canvas to begin working with until those parts all start returning to the workshop.
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PART 3: 502 BIG BLOCK BUILD AND HEARTBREAK.....
It happens.
For every story of a build plan... there are always those surprises and drama that force you to make tough decisions and either continue to fight or give up in defeat. Such was the case when the 502BBC arrived in Heath's shop (Volcano Manifolds) in a big 1075Lb wooden crate.
The unboxing and inventory of parts was going great... the theory was that the engine could be stripped-down and inspected and then the new cam, heads and other parts could be fitted to the existing shortblock. Not an effortless amount of work, but a straightforward project that would take a modest number of hours to complete. Everyone was in great spirits as the engine started coming apart and then the phone rang...... "Hey, Greg... uh, I got the heads off your engine and we need to talk.....". That's never a phone call you want to get..... As it turns out, there was some minor water staining in the #3 cylinder.
You can see the cross-hatching in this picture.... the bore itself is pretty clean and nice, but the stain runs deeper than the hatch pattern and Heath indicated that you can "feel" it with a fingernail. So was not just a cosmetic issue, but could also result in some oil blowby and/or compression loss past the rings. This was a gut punch on a couple of fronts.... obviously, he could address this with new machining of the block but the machine shop was backed-up with work for almost 6 months... so this entire project would basically be dead for most of this year until we got that work completed. Add to that the actual costs of a full block machining, and the cost of new oversized pistons to go with it and it was starting to feel like we needed to consider other options.
Ultimately, the we decided that we just couldn't afford to wait 6 more months to get this project moving forward and ordered up a brand-new GM factory 502 short block. It was delivered 2 days later to Heath's shop and was used as the basis for the engine build from that point on. When you see that the engine pictures suddenly go from Chevy orange to basic black... this is why.
With the first bit of drama behind us, Heath started working the other details. The Brodix heads got a mild bowl blend job and all valve seats were lapped for proper seal to make sure that there would be no compression loss...
A new Volcano single-plane high rise manifold was also fitted to the engine with careful port-matching to the heads. A gasket is used to make the impression and then the intake is opened up to create the exact shape of the intake ports on the heads.
From the inside of the plenum (looking down) you can see the parting line between the intake and the cylinder head, and the nice clean transistion between these parts. Although not visible in this photo.... Heath also added one of his hidden nitrous kits in the base of the manifold.... because "Might As Well" This will give all sorts of options later on... and will be fun to play with when this engine finally hits the dyno stand a few weeks from now. 
Top view shows the heads after the matchporting... all cleaned up and ready for the manifold to be installed for good. If you look closely you can also see the custom timing cover with the crank trigger setup for the Holley DIS. This was a really stealthy way to get full spark control on this engine and since the Dominator EFI setup already supports it.... the only thing we needed to do was buy the parts to attach... and of course, 8 coil packs which now need to be hidden somewhere out of sight (because "stock") LOL
This is the current state of engine as of today. The EFI is installed and some of the wiring harnesses are now in place... mostly running through the hollow section of the intake manifold to keep the visual look as clean as possible. The Oil Pump drive is installed where the distributor used to live... since there is no longer a need for a conventional distributor.
Current schedule (according to Heath) is about one additional week to get the nitrous lines fitted and get the rest of the EFI and sensors set up. After that we are both at the mercy of his local dyno shop to schedule us in for the engine break-in.....leak checks.... and finally some power pulls. Both normally aspirated and with a healthy shot of nitrous as well. Need to make sure that we get lots of photos and videos of that process to share..... with any luck this will happen by the end of July.
It happens.
For every story of a build plan... there are always those surprises and drama that force you to make tough decisions and either continue to fight or give up in defeat. Such was the case when the 502BBC arrived in Heath's shop (Volcano Manifolds) in a big 1075Lb wooden crate.
The unboxing and inventory of parts was going great... the theory was that the engine could be stripped-down and inspected and then the new cam, heads and other parts could be fitted to the existing shortblock. Not an effortless amount of work, but a straightforward project that would take a modest number of hours to complete. Everyone was in great spirits as the engine started coming apart and then the phone rang...... "Hey, Greg... uh, I got the heads off your engine and we need to talk.....". That's never a phone call you want to get..... As it turns out, there was some minor water staining in the #3 cylinder.
You can see the cross-hatching in this picture.... the bore itself is pretty clean and nice, but the stain runs deeper than the hatch pattern and Heath indicated that you can "feel" it with a fingernail. So was not just a cosmetic issue, but could also result in some oil blowby and/or compression loss past the rings. This was a gut punch on a couple of fronts.... obviously, he could address this with new machining of the block but the machine shop was backed-up with work for almost 6 months... so this entire project would basically be dead for most of this year until we got that work completed. Add to that the actual costs of a full block machining, and the cost of new oversized pistons to go with it and it was starting to feel like we needed to consider other options.
Ultimately, the we decided that we just couldn't afford to wait 6 more months to get this project moving forward and ordered up a brand-new GM factory 502 short block. It was delivered 2 days later to Heath's shop and was used as the basis for the engine build from that point on. When you see that the engine pictures suddenly go from Chevy orange to basic black... this is why.
With the first bit of drama behind us, Heath started working the other details. The Brodix heads got a mild bowl blend job and all valve seats were lapped for proper seal to make sure that there would be no compression loss...
A new Volcano single-plane high rise manifold was also fitted to the engine with careful port-matching to the heads. A gasket is used to make the impression and then the intake is opened up to create the exact shape of the intake ports on the heads.
From the inside of the plenum (looking down) you can see the parting line between the intake and the cylinder head, and the nice clean transistion between these parts. Although not visible in this photo.... Heath also added one of his hidden nitrous kits in the base of the manifold.... because "Might As Well"
This will give all sorts of options later on... and will be fun to play with when this engine finally hits the dyno stand a few weeks from now. Top view shows the heads after the matchporting... all cleaned up and ready for the manifold to be installed for good. If you look closely you can also see the custom timing cover with the crank trigger setup for the Holley DIS. This was a really stealthy way to get full spark control on this engine and since the Dominator EFI setup already supports it.... the only thing we needed to do was buy the parts to attach... and of course, 8 coil packs which now need to be hidden somewhere out of sight (because "stock") LOL
This is the current state of engine as of today. The EFI is installed and some of the wiring harnesses are now in place... mostly running through the hollow section of the intake manifold to keep the visual look as clean as possible. The Oil Pump drive is installed where the distributor used to live... since there is no longer a need for a conventional distributor.
Current schedule (according to Heath) is about one additional week to get the nitrous lines fitted and get the rest of the EFI and sensors set up. After that we are both at the mercy of his local dyno shop to schedule us in for the engine break-in.....leak checks.... and finally some power pulls. Both normally aspirated and with a healthy shot of nitrous as well. Need to make sure that we get lots of photos and videos of that process to share..... with any luck this will happen by the end of July.
2023.07.04 - PART 4 - BAD CHOICES, EXPENSIVE SOLUTIONS....
As mentioned earlier, so many of the parts currently being refreshed in this part of the build were actually 100% new when they were first added to this build. Zero-miles, never run... ultimately just expensive placeholders until the entire truck became operational.
The Atlas-4 was certainly in that category.... but the plan was to send it off to AA and have them go completely through it, replace any "Down Rev" parts with the newest, strongest version of that component... and then send it back refreshed and ready for duty behind a healthy new BBC engine!
The phone call to Advance Adapters didn't go according to plan.
After laying out my idea for a "refresh" on the Atlas-4 they started asking me more questions about the application: What kind of vehicle? How much does it weigh? How much HP/TQ does the engine make? The discussion went downhill from there. Apparently, the Atlas-2 (2 speed box) is a nice burly unit and is used frequently in KOH vehicles with huge HP and can be built to be super-strong. However, the Atlas-4 is not the same animal... and in fact according to Advance Adapters themselves, it is not even recommended for applications in excess of around 400HP. Basically, it's a Jeep box... lots of gearing, great for a moderately powered vehicle but 100% completely wrong for a full-bodied, heavy, high HP truck application. This was a huge bummer, as there was really no path to get from this Atlas-4 to anything stronger without completely giving up on a 4-speed transfercase. Having 4-speeds has been part of the build plan since forever, and all the rest of the gearing, axles and transmission selection were dependent on it.
Back in 2006 when this was originally purchased, the Atlas-4 was really the only option in the marketplace with so many flexible low-range gearing options. But that was more than a decade ago. Since then Offroad Design had developed their Magnum Underdrive box. In simple terms, it's basically the same concept as the Atlas-4 was... but leverages the bulletproof NP205 and a custom-designed and built intermediate shaft to join the front planetary underdrive box to it. The product is just beefier everywhere that counts, larger gears, larger shafts and even the guys at AA said it was the correct product for this application. So although it could be argued that this was yet another expensive mistake, it was really more a function of technology evolving and creating a new product that wasn't initially available when parts were first being gathered for the MightAsWellK5 build.
That said... it was time to pay up (again).... and wait at the back of the line for almost 3 months for a Magnum Underdrive kit to be delivered.
The machine work is impressive and really made it worth the wait...
The heart of the system, and the main factor that allows this solution to be so strong is the custom intermediate shaft. (Beer can added to show scale and shaft diameter in dramatic fashion)
(Shameless plug for Manhattan Project beer company, my new favorite brewery located in Dallas, TX)
Got really lucky and found a donor NP205 on Facebook Marketplace locally... even period correct!!! Assembly tag shows it was built in 1972.
This case is the Figure-8 style but has the small bearing case (as most of them do) so it will need to be torn down completely for machining of the larger bearing. Did some deburring on the case to make it look nicer once it's painted because "Might As Well"....
This is another part of the build where it makes sense to assemble a team of experts and let them do what they do best. A crate was built to send the NP205 and the new ORD Magnum box kit to Tod over at BulletProofNP205 for a full teardown, inspection, rebuild and a substantial number of upgraded strength parts including some new 35-spline front and rear output shafts!!! (More on those later)
Freight Truck picked this up a few weeks ago and it now waiting it's turn at Tod's shop... work is expected to begin by mid-July.
As mentioned earlier, so many of the parts currently being refreshed in this part of the build were actually 100% new when they were first added to this build. Zero-miles, never run... ultimately just expensive placeholders until the entire truck became operational.
The Atlas-4 was certainly in that category.... but the plan was to send it off to AA and have them go completely through it, replace any "Down Rev" parts with the newest, strongest version of that component... and then send it back refreshed and ready for duty behind a healthy new BBC engine!
The phone call to Advance Adapters didn't go according to plan.
After laying out my idea for a "refresh" on the Atlas-4 they started asking me more questions about the application: What kind of vehicle? How much does it weigh? How much HP/TQ does the engine make? The discussion went downhill from there. Apparently, the Atlas-2 (2 speed box) is a nice burly unit and is used frequently in KOH vehicles with huge HP and can be built to be super-strong. However, the Atlas-4 is not the same animal... and in fact according to Advance Adapters themselves, it is not even recommended for applications in excess of around 400HP. Basically, it's a Jeep box... lots of gearing, great for a moderately powered vehicle but 100% completely wrong for a full-bodied, heavy, high HP truck application. This was a huge bummer, as there was really no path to get from this Atlas-4 to anything stronger without completely giving up on a 4-speed transfercase. Having 4-speeds has been part of the build plan since forever, and all the rest of the gearing, axles and transmission selection were dependent on it.
Back in 2006 when this was originally purchased, the Atlas-4 was really the only option in the marketplace with so many flexible low-range gearing options. But that was more than a decade ago. Since then Offroad Design had developed their Magnum Underdrive box. In simple terms, it's basically the same concept as the Atlas-4 was... but leverages the bulletproof NP205 and a custom-designed and built intermediate shaft to join the front planetary underdrive box to it. The product is just beefier everywhere that counts, larger gears, larger shafts and even the guys at AA said it was the correct product for this application. So although it could be argued that this was yet another expensive mistake, it was really more a function of technology evolving and creating a new product that wasn't initially available when parts were first being gathered for the MightAsWellK5 build.
That said... it was time to pay up (again).... and wait at the back of the line for almost 3 months for a Magnum Underdrive kit to be delivered.
The machine work is impressive and really made it worth the wait...
The heart of the system, and the main factor that allows this solution to be so strong is the custom intermediate shaft. (Beer can added to show scale and shaft diameter in dramatic fashion)
(Shameless plug for Manhattan Project beer company, my new favorite brewery located in Dallas, TX)
Got really lucky and found a donor NP205 on Facebook Marketplace locally... even period correct!!! Assembly tag shows it was built in 1972.
This case is the Figure-8 style but has the small bearing case (as most of them do) so it will need to be torn down completely for machining of the larger bearing. Did some deburring on the case to make it look nicer once it's painted because "Might As Well"....
This is another part of the build where it makes sense to assemble a team of experts and let them do what they do best. A crate was built to send the NP205 and the new ORD Magnum box kit to Tod over at BulletProofNP205 for a full teardown, inspection, rebuild and a substantial number of upgraded strength parts including some new 35-spline front and rear output shafts!!! (More on those later)
Freight Truck picked this up a few weeks ago and it now waiting it's turn at Tod's shop... work is expected to begin by mid-July.
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PART 5: A MEETING 15-YEARS IN THE MAKING... GREG DUCATO
It finally happened and it only took TWO cross-country moves and more than 15 years, but was finally able to meet @Greg Ducato in person and get his expertise applied to the MighAsWellK5 build for one of the more critical components.
Everyone knows Greg, and he has been on CK5 forever sharing advice and knowledge.... always in a very laid-back and low pressure way. Unless you really pay attention, most people here wouldn't even know that he owns Phoenix Transmissions up in Weatherford, TX. I knew that when the time came, he would be the right guy to build the 4L80E for this project but never really expected that we would get the chance to meet in person. It always seemed like it would be one of those "virtual internet" friends that you've known for years.
As the rest of the drivetrain components were being removed and shipped out, Greg and I talked about the build plan for the 4L80E and he asked me a bunch of questions about gearing, weight, tire size, engine torque and more so that he would have a clear sense of just how crazy the build sheet would have to be. In the end, my best bet was to trust his expertise and let him guide me through the parts selection process based on his own experience. Buy the upgraded parts where needed, but know when to stop buying expensive upgrades when they simply weren't necessary.... this project will be a pretty strong package, but Greg builds transmissions for applications that are a LOT more demanding than this....
Ultimately, the build sheet was a bit of a hybrid between his "Stage 2" upgrade parts... with a smattering of select components from the "Stage 3" as well... honestly, the specific details are mostly foreign to me but I knew that Greg had a good plan in his head so it was time to let him run with it.
He was nice enough to send me build pics along the way... obviously, it wasn't practical (or advisable) for me to hover over his workbench during the actual build process but here are a few shots as it went apart and back together.
I don't know how common it is for a transmission shop to run their fresh builds on a dyno to confirm pressure, leaks and proper upshift / downshifts... but that's what Greg does... and it was pretty cool to see. A video clip of the actual test of the MightAsWell 4L80E is linked below....
The drive from Austin, TX to Phoenix Transmissions is about 2.5 hours each way, but it was an awesome experience to finally get to meet Greg in person, shake his hand and see his shop and meet his talented team of builders. He was generous with his time and we enjoyed spending some time talking together until it was finally time to load up the new beast of a transmission and head back home.
It will stay in it's perfect painted and dust-free condition until it's finally time to put all of the drivetrain components back together inside the framerails of the MightAsWellK5
It finally happened and it only took TWO cross-country moves and more than 15 years, but was finally able to meet @Greg Ducato in person and get his expertise applied to the MighAsWellK5 build for one of the more critical components.
Everyone knows Greg, and he has been on CK5 forever sharing advice and knowledge.... always in a very laid-back and low pressure way. Unless you really pay attention, most people here wouldn't even know that he owns Phoenix Transmissions up in Weatherford, TX. I knew that when the time came, he would be the right guy to build the 4L80E for this project but never really expected that we would get the chance to meet in person. It always seemed like it would be one of those "virtual internet" friends that you've known for years.
As the rest of the drivetrain components were being removed and shipped out, Greg and I talked about the build plan for the 4L80E and he asked me a bunch of questions about gearing, weight, tire size, engine torque and more so that he would have a clear sense of just how crazy the build sheet would have to be. In the end, my best bet was to trust his expertise and let him guide me through the parts selection process based on his own experience. Buy the upgraded parts where needed, but know when to stop buying expensive upgrades when they simply weren't necessary.... this project will be a pretty strong package, but Greg builds transmissions for applications that are a LOT more demanding than this....
Ultimately, the build sheet was a bit of a hybrid between his "Stage 2" upgrade parts... with a smattering of select components from the "Stage 3" as well... honestly, the specific details are mostly foreign to me but I knew that Greg had a good plan in his head so it was time to let him run with it.
He was nice enough to send me build pics along the way... obviously, it wasn't practical (or advisable) for me to hover over his workbench during the actual build process but here are a few shots as it went apart and back together.
I don't know how common it is for a transmission shop to run their fresh builds on a dyno to confirm pressure, leaks and proper upshift / downshifts... but that's what Greg does... and it was pretty cool to see. A video clip of the actual test of the MightAsWell 4L80E is linked below....
The drive from Austin, TX to Phoenix Transmissions is about 2.5 hours each way, but it was an awesome experience to finally get to meet Greg in person, shake his hand and see his shop and meet his talented team of builders. He was generous with his time and we enjoyed spending some time talking together until it was finally time to load up the new beast of a transmission and head back home.
It will stay in it's perfect painted and dust-free condition until it's finally time to put all of the drivetrain components back together inside the framerails of the MightAsWellK5
bp71k5
3/4 ton status
PART 3: 502 BIG BLOCK BUILD AND HEARTBREAK.....
Is the nitrous in lieu of turbos cause of the engine bay space? Or just that the motor in this kind of vehicle isn’t likely to spin high enough to take advantage of turbos?It happens.
For every story of a build plan... there are always those surprises and drama that force you to make tough decisions and either continue to fight or give up in defeat. Such was the case when the 502BBC arrived in Heath's shop (Volcano Manifolds) in a big 1075Lb wooden crate.
The unboxing and inventory of parts was going great... the theory was that the engine could be stripped-down and inspected and then the new cam, heads and other parts could be fitted to the existing shortblock. Not an effortless amount of work, but a straightforward project that would take a modest number of hours to complete. Everyone was in great spirits as the engine started coming apart and then the phone rang...... "Hey, Greg... uh, I got the heads off your engine and we need to talk.....". That's never a phone call you want to get..... As it turns out, there was some minor water staining in the #3 cylinder.
View attachment 451390
You can see the cross-hatching in this picture.... the bore itself is pretty clean and nice, but the stain runs deeper than the hatch pattern and Heath indicated that you can "feel" it with a fingernail. So was not just a cosmetic issue, but could also result in some oil blowby and/or compression loss past the rings. This was a gut punch on a couple of fronts.... obviously, he could address this with new machining of the block but the machine shop was backed-up with work for almost 6 months... so this entire project would basically be dead for most of this year until we got that work completed. Add to that the actual costs of a full block machining, and the cost of new oversized pistons to go with it and it was starting to feel like we needed to consider other options.
View attachment 451391
Ultimately, the we decided that we just couldn't afford to wait 6 more months to get this project moving forward and ordered up a brand-new GM factory 502 short block. It was delivered 2 days later to Heath's shop and was used as the basis for the engine build from that point on. When you see that the engine pictures suddenly go from Chevy orange to basic black... this is why.
View attachment 451392
With the first bit of drama behind us, Heath started working the other details. The Brodix heads got a mild bowl blend job and all valve seats were checked for proper seal to make sure that there would be no compression loss...
View attachment 451393
A new Volcano single-plane high rise manifold was also fitted to the engine with careful port-matching to the heads. A gasket is used to make the impression and then the intake is opened up to create the exact shape of the intake ports on the heads.
View attachment 451394
From the inside of the plenum (looking down) you can see the parting line between the intake and the cylinder head, and the nice clean transistion between these parts. Although not visible in this photo.... Heath also added one of his hidden nitrous kits in the base of the manifold.... because "Might As Well"
View attachment 451395
Top view shows the heads after the matchporting... all cleaned up and ready for the manifold to be installed for good. If you look closely you can also see the custom timing cover with the crank trigger setup for the Holley DIS. This was a really stealthy way to get full spark control on this engine and since the Dominator EFI setup already supports it.... the only thing we needed to do was buy the parts to attach... and of course, 8 coil packs which now need to be hidden somewhere out of sight (because "stock") LOL
View attachment 451396
This is the current state of engine as of today. The EFI is installed and some of the wiring harnesses are now in place... mostly running through the hollow section of the intake manifold to keep the visual look as clean as possible. The Oil Pump drive is installed where the distributor used to live... since there is no longer a need for a conventional distributor.
View attachment 451397
Current schedule (according to Heath) is about one additional week to get the nitrous lines fitted and get the rest of the EFI and sensors set up. After that we are both at the mercy of his local dyno shop to schedule us in for the engine break-in.....leak checks.... and finally some power pulls. Both normally aspirated and with a healthy shot of nitrous as well. Need to make sure that we get lots of photos and videos of that process to share..... with any luck this will happen by the end of July.
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PART 6: FRONT-HALF FRAMERAILS...
The evolution of the MightAsWellK5 build is an interesting balance of forward progress mixed with lots of "tuition pile" revisions... deliberately moving backward for a period of time so that a larger forward leap can happen in the future.
Such was the case once all of the drivetrain components were removed and planning began to fit the front winch in a hidden location behind the factory stock bumper. The factory framerails are roughly 1/2" too close together to allow the 12K WARN winch to drop between them so to make any of this work, the boxed framerails were going to need to be notched and plated extensively to allow for the clearance of the winch but still preserve the strength need to be a strong anchor point that wouldn't tear out during an actual extraction or recovery.
Standing back and looking objectively at the front rails with all of their modifications, notches, and pockets (which were done to resolve clearance issues either of the suspension or steering linkages many years ago) they were kind of a mess. Surely, there had to be a cleaner way to provide the clearances needed without doing even MORE notching on those framerails. Knowing that there was now a plasma table in the shop that would allow for more rapid prototyping, it felt like a good opportunity to push out of the "comfort zone" and take on a project that would build some new skills and ultimately give a cleaner and stronger result to the front end of the truck.
Starting with cardboard, the basic strategy was formed.
By going to a more aggressive upswept angle toward the engine mounts, more clearance could be created on the underside of the framerails for lower suspension links. By going slightly higher across the top of the framerails, the notches for the PHB and steering idler would no longer be needed. Cardboard templating continued and was compared to the @ryoken green frame underneath and gave a quick visual reference to how much clearance was being created.
Obviously, as the framerails approached the core support and front bumper area, the angles could be tweaked slightly outward to also allow the clearance for the hidden winch. This whole exercise seemed to be offering a lot of nice clean "fixes" to existing problems, and after a lot of consideration (and a little bit of extra bravery) the decision was made to go "all in" on the new design plan.
A new frame profile was in cardboard and needed to be transferred to steel plate. Since the existing factory rails were all 10GA (.134') that was used again for the new ones.
The best part about having a CNC plasma table is that once you know what you want.... you can have LOTS of exact copies almost instantly! This amount of cutting and matching of plates would have taken HOURS... now it was just a couple of minutes and were all identical dimensionally.
Morgan Clarke Design (MCD1) is an awesome YouTube channel and a lot of inspiration has come from there over the last year or more. One of his high-end Jeep builds had a competely fabricated "front half" frame with an elegant series of internal trusses slotted into the side plates and sandwiched together to form an insanely strong set of rails, not only in vertical loading but also in torsion.
That principle was completely plagiarized here...
Ultimately all the parts are assembled and welded on the interior surfaces, then welded through the exterior slots to lock the internal trusses to the exterior plates. Then a set of upper and lower caps seal off the entire framerail giving it the same visual look as a simple box tube design... but with substantially higher strength.
The fitment is fussy... there is no arguing about it. And if you just start pouring heat from a TIG welder into those slots and corner welds it's going to twist and misalign everything. So it's good policy to tack weld as much as possible to lock things tight before starting on root pass welds.
Speaking of TIG welding... this has been a real journey as well. Experience with this weld process was non-existent, so a LOT of time has been invested to learn techniques and practice, practice, practice. There really aren't any shortcuts... people who are good at TIG welding are good because they practiced A LOT. The journey has just begun, but it is certainly addictive!!!
The passenger side framerail got all root passes and was looking pretty good. Being able to run long consistent passes is incredibly hard and I have a new respect for the guys who can do it....
The root passes were cleaned up, and the final cover passes were run over all those root passes. TIG is super-time consuming.... and welding on a single frame rail represented a few solid days of work for just the welding step.
With the passenger side complete, attention could be paid to the driver side.....
It was more complex due to the fact that the steering box needed to be located on that rail and needed a substantial amount of internal bracing to prevent flexing or cracking later on.
An internal set of sandwich plates (also .134") were installed on both interior surfaces before the trussing and other plating was installed. The extra bolts here are for the factory core support bracket which was reused on these rails "because stock"...
All bolt locations were internally sleeved to prevent them from crushing the framerail when torqued-down... then more triangulating plates were used to tie all the steering box bolts together. Once all of this was welded, the inner and outer vertical frame plates were finally mated together and then fully tack welded in preparation for final welding....
So.... that's where we stand at this point. It has been a really long and busy year since we last spoke... and being honest this 6-part update is really only a fraction of the larger effort that it took to get here.... hopefully, this helps everyone see that this project is still moving toward completion and if anything it feels like it is beginning to pick up steam as major parts of the build are being checked off the punchlist.
That's it for now... if you need to find me just look for the house with the garage doors rolled up and the shop lights on!!!
Have a great and safe 4th of July everyone!
The evolution of the MightAsWellK5 build is an interesting balance of forward progress mixed with lots of "tuition pile" revisions... deliberately moving backward for a period of time so that a larger forward leap can happen in the future.
Such was the case once all of the drivetrain components were removed and planning began to fit the front winch in a hidden location behind the factory stock bumper. The factory framerails are roughly 1/2" too close together to allow the 12K WARN winch to drop between them so to make any of this work, the boxed framerails were going to need to be notched and plated extensively to allow for the clearance of the winch but still preserve the strength need to be a strong anchor point that wouldn't tear out during an actual extraction or recovery.
Standing back and looking objectively at the front rails with all of their modifications, notches, and pockets (which were done to resolve clearance issues either of the suspension or steering linkages many years ago) they were kind of a mess. Surely, there had to be a cleaner way to provide the clearances needed without doing even MORE notching on those framerails. Knowing that there was now a plasma table in the shop that would allow for more rapid prototyping, it felt like a good opportunity to push out of the "comfort zone" and take on a project that would build some new skills and ultimately give a cleaner and stronger result to the front end of the truck.
Starting with cardboard, the basic strategy was formed.
By going to a more aggressive upswept angle toward the engine mounts, more clearance could be created on the underside of the framerails for lower suspension links. By going slightly higher across the top of the framerails, the notches for the PHB and steering idler would no longer be needed. Cardboard templating continued and was compared to the @ryoken green frame underneath and gave a quick visual reference to how much clearance was being created.
Obviously, as the framerails approached the core support and front bumper area, the angles could be tweaked slightly outward to also allow the clearance for the hidden winch. This whole exercise seemed to be offering a lot of nice clean "fixes" to existing problems, and after a lot of consideration (and a little bit of extra bravery) the decision was made to go "all in" on the new design plan.
A new frame profile was in cardboard and needed to be transferred to steel plate. Since the existing factory rails were all 10GA (.134') that was used again for the new ones.
The best part about having a CNC plasma table is that once you know what you want.... you can have LOTS of exact copies almost instantly! This amount of cutting and matching of plates would have taken HOURS... now it was just a couple of minutes and were all identical dimensionally.
Morgan Clarke Design (MCD1) is an awesome YouTube channel and a lot of inspiration has come from there over the last year or more. One of his high-end Jeep builds had a competely fabricated "front half" frame with an elegant series of internal trusses slotted into the side plates and sandwiched together to form an insanely strong set of rails, not only in vertical loading but also in torsion.
That principle was completely plagiarized here...
Ultimately all the parts are assembled and welded on the interior surfaces, then welded through the exterior slots to lock the internal trusses to the exterior plates. Then a set of upper and lower caps seal off the entire framerail giving it the same visual look as a simple box tube design... but with substantially higher strength.
The fitment is fussy... there is no arguing about it. And if you just start pouring heat from a TIG welder into those slots and corner welds it's going to twist and misalign everything. So it's good policy to tack weld as much as possible to lock things tight before starting on root pass welds.
Speaking of TIG welding... this has been a real journey as well. Experience with this weld process was non-existent, so a LOT of time has been invested to learn techniques and practice, practice, practice. There really aren't any shortcuts... people who are good at TIG welding are good because they practiced A LOT. The journey has just begun, but it is certainly addictive!!!
The passenger side framerail got all root passes and was looking pretty good. Being able to run long consistent passes is incredibly hard and I have a new respect for the guys who can do it....
The root passes were cleaned up, and the final cover passes were run over all those root passes. TIG is super-time consuming.... and welding on a single frame rail represented a few solid days of work for just the welding step.
With the passenger side complete, attention could be paid to the driver side.....
It was more complex due to the fact that the steering box needed to be located on that rail and needed a substantial amount of internal bracing to prevent flexing or cracking later on.
An internal set of sandwich plates (also .134") were installed on both interior surfaces before the trussing and other plating was installed. The extra bolts here are for the factory core support bracket which was reused on these rails "because stock"...
All bolt locations were internally sleeved to prevent them from crushing the framerail when torqued-down... then more triangulating plates were used to tie all the steering box bolts together. Once all of this was welded, the inner and outer vertical frame plates were finally mated together and then fully tack welded in preparation for final welding....
So.... that's where we stand at this point. It has been a really long and busy year since we last spoke... and being honest this 6-part update is really only a fraction of the larger effort that it took to get here.... hopefully, this helps everyone see that this project is still moving toward completion and if anything it feels like it is beginning to pick up steam as major parts of the build are being checked off the punchlist.
That's it for now... if you need to find me just look for the house with the garage doors rolled up and the shop lights on!!!
Have a great and safe 4th of July everyone!
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Hi Brian,
No turbos.... sorry. Wrong kind of power for the application. Heath and I put together a plan for an engine with absolutely MONSTER low-end torque at low RPM. The dyno will tell the tale ultimately, but it should be at around 600LB/FT from maybe 2000 RPM all the way to redline. Interesting fact (that I will let Heath talk about more himself) is that putting his nitrous manifold design on this engine will produce more horsepower (obviously) but the effect it will have to amplify those TQ numbers is actually even more impressive!!!
For a truck like this, it's MUCH more impressive to have massive torque available at low RPMs as that is where the truck will be driven most of the time.
-G
Nice to see you getting set up on the drivetrian. However, the one thing I was eager to see is your custom axles shafts for your 9"/MOG axle assemblies.
Let my wallet cool off for a few minutes and we will get into that next.........
The axleshafts are really not much to figure out. Take the measurements correctly and send them over to Stan at Branik Motorsports with a few thousand dollars and the Ford 9"-to-Unimog404 conversion axleshafts arrive right at your doorstep!!
Of course that doesn't include the ARB lockers or the remaining parts needed to plumb the brakes or CTIS either. It's all on the list to be done, but for now the axles need to stay under the truck until all the new PHB and Idler bracketry is transferred over to the new framerails.
-G
Damn work of art. Hopefully get to see it in person at blazer bash!
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'86 Jimmy 4in Lift, 40’s, tons, 8.1 Swap- 700r4 said PNNNNN- Latest: GWeakland620
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