FIFY
CK5
Register an account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members.
Ive been keeping busy over here trying to get this truck ready. Me and the wife have decided to make some changes for 4-6 months by AirBnb' ing out the house and living at the cabin on a smaller island nearby. Ive been back and forth at my current employer a few times, and the workload is growing expenentially and the workforce is decreasing as guys are just beat down and exhausted. I gave my two weeks as i refuse to wear 5 hats for the price of one, and even at that im not getting ahead financially. We should be able to make some good profit off the house and bank all our income to ourselves, as the rental would cover the mortgage 2-3 times over I presume.
July first is the moving date, the shop will still be accessible anytime I want to come over (35 min ferry ride) , and work on the truck. Ideally id like to get the truck running and have it be the vehicle i take over there. I have scrapped alot of changes and am focusing on just seeing if it runs and drives first. Going to reinstall stock shift linkage for ease and skip any "wants" , and keep the needs.
Harness is nearings complete. Since i moved the relay box over to the pass. side since thats where the battery is located in the box, i have had to re make alot of wires but its nice to clean it all up. With so much less space at the firewall this is almost necessary compared to before. I am planning on moving the fuel regulator away from the box and shorten up some fuel lines at the same time.
I have the 12v batt. connected to the TB ( in line with a 70 amp fuse ) , which then feeds the relay box, and the OE fuse linked wire into the OEM firewall connection, along with the alternator connection. I was able to remove the other OEM fused link as it used to power the engine harness.
The relays power FAN and ALT for now with two blank spots for future. They are set up as 12v switched relays, i remember dickin around with these before as i think the fan is a ground trigger with the holley ECU.
Even on rockauto a trans dipstick was going to run me 125 bucks so i settled for a 70 dollar chinesium aluminum type. I was using my old th350 one before but it wasnt a great fit with its shape and was a pain to fasten to the back of the heads.
Got the fenders back on, and core support lined up. I was hoping to get a new rad with inlet/outlet on same side but... monies scarce so shes going on how she was. The coupler will give me a space to install a 1/8 npt to 4AN fitting and tie into the 4 port steam kit, plumbed into the highest point in the system. Should also be a decent air bleed when filling with coolant again.
Sway bar is installed and welded up, took photos of all that but cant seem to find them... like the drivers side marker light
I searched high and low to find OEM orange markers so i hope i can find where the dryer gnomes hid it. I do plan on running the Trans cooler i picked up a long time ago, i have to exten the lines a little which isnt ideal but oh well.
July first is the moving date, the shop will still be accessible anytime I want to come over (35 min ferry ride) , and work on the truck. Ideally id like to get the truck running and have it be the vehicle i take over there. I have scrapped alot of changes and am focusing on just seeing if it runs and drives first. Going to reinstall stock shift linkage for ease and skip any "wants" , and keep the needs.
Harness is nearings complete. Since i moved the relay box over to the pass. side since thats where the battery is located in the box, i have had to re make alot of wires but its nice to clean it all up. With so much less space at the firewall this is almost necessary compared to before. I am planning on moving the fuel regulator away from the box and shorten up some fuel lines at the same time.
I have the 12v batt. connected to the TB ( in line with a 70 amp fuse ) , which then feeds the relay box, and the OE fuse linked wire into the OEM firewall connection, along with the alternator connection. I was able to remove the other OEM fused link as it used to power the engine harness.
The relays power FAN and ALT for now with two blank spots for future. They are set up as 12v switched relays, i remember dickin around with these before as i think the fan is a ground trigger with the holley ECU.
Even on rockauto a trans dipstick was going to run me 125 bucks so i settled for a 70 dollar chinesium aluminum type. I was using my old th350 one before but it wasnt a great fit with its shape and was a pain to fasten to the back of the heads.
Got the fenders back on, and core support lined up. I was hoping to get a new rad with inlet/outlet on same side but... monies scarce so shes going on how she was. The coupler will give me a space to install a 1/8 npt to 4AN fitting and tie into the 4 port steam kit, plumbed into the highest point in the system. Should also be a decent air bleed when filling with coolant again.
Sway bar is installed and welded up, took photos of all that but cant seem to find them... like the drivers side marker light
I searched high and low to find OEM orange markers so i hope i can find where the dryer gnomes hid it. I do plan on running the Trans cooler i picked up a long time ago, i have to exten the lines a little which isnt ideal but oh well.
Good luck with the life changes. I'll bet it works out for you.
Thanks, when I started to not want to come home after work, had such little energy and mainly patience left from the workday. I noticed myself acting towards my family in ways that i wouldnt expect myself too. Jobs like that should atleast give you bank, this one doesnt even do that. A few months with the boy will be a good time to try n figure out how i can be around more with a different stable income.
Driveshaft is back in and the moroso girdles are on. The slip yolk is leaking out of the centre so i may take it out and see whats going on there, not sure if its a cap and it just needs some silicone or what..
Also found some photos of the sway bar install, along with pitman arm and drag link*?.
Also found some photos of the sway bar install, along with pitman arm and drag link*?.
Are those girdles just expensive ujoint caps or do they add strength some how?
Im not really sure, id prefer the U bolt style yoke but my straps were janky and also sitting on my shelf from the beginning of a pinion brake parts pile. Id think it offers u joint stability and helps prevent a failure from error, but as for strength i doubt it. Still just a 1310 ujoint i think.
i remember doing this with my k5.. no screw though, use the screw to get it out and place it?
Its been awhile but to make a long story short.. parenthood is craziness, everythings super expensive, never thought id go to the artic circle for work or above Alaska in the Yukon... but that was neat, and I also got canned at my more recent " long term job " the other day after reporting unsafe work because my supervisor couldnt manage his way out of a wet paper bag.. So im currently stay at home daddy daycare at the moment, which is great for all reasons except financial ones, but one of those reasons being I can work on the truck again. Pulled the truck out of the old towel smelling car tent and got it in the shop.
A quick take on what life it has had since putting the engine and transmission back together.
Engine did not run correctly after getting the timing components installed and the transmission mated to the engine and stabbed in the truck. After cranking and cranking with some random firing.. i realized i was washing the cylinder walls with fuel and decided to use the computer for its best features. In the holley software I turned on diagnostic 6 and 7 and then data logged it while trying to start. Turns out the crank signal was junk.. installed a new crank sensor and crossed my fingers. It starts up but doesnt idle properly and has strange loops and humps to it. I confirm a bunch of things are at proper spec but still the AFR is all over while running.... after quite some time it dawned on me that maybe the throttle body i put on was the wrong one.. Turns out it was, i had one laying around the shop for my old gmc work truck which was a 6 cylinder and thats the one that ended up on the truck by mistake. Although they look identical, i was wondering if the stepper motor and holley ecu were off beat somehow.
Cold starts are good, idle is decent with changes to the map showing corresponding changes in throttle response and AFR at idle.. things are good..
Until I shift the transmission into D... no clunk and no foreward movement at all. At first i was almost convinced i pushed the truck around the yard with my van and had left it in drive and not neutral... ( Rushing and not removing the driveshaft is a bad time ).. While looking online, the symptoms i have seem to line up with a broken input sprag.. which would probably want to implode if the truck was pushed in reverse while in gear ( seemed to make sense..? ) So after the truck didnt run and the trans didnt move it, back in the tent trailer it went until recently....
Symptoms and clues :
-No movement in D
-Metal or clutch material in pan ( Z pak clutches, and kolene steels are dark so its hard to differentiate )
-Movement in 2nd gear manually but shaky and bad ( I read that its using the piston mainly to seat these clutches so driving this way should be avoided as to not damage the apply piston ) so very little moving was done in this state. This was also a symptom tied into having a junk input sprag.
-Reverse seemed to work but didnt have much room to test it out, i remember it clunking in gear properly.
Ive decided to sell my dad wagon ( or ls swap it into a rear wheel drive drift car ).... either or i need the truck to be a daily again. Got the truck in the shop and dropped the pan.. Fluid is still obviously new and red but has either clutch material or some fine metal in it. Out she comes!!!
Once i got the trans out and up on a workbench the disassembly started...
I knew the input sprag was only about halfway into the case and just kept thinking I would find a smoking gun somewhere... I did notice some wear on the copper/brass input sprag race, and i had already ordered a 29 element double cage borg worner unit so that will get installed on re-assembly.
A quick take on what life it has had since putting the engine and transmission back together.
Engine did not run correctly after getting the timing components installed and the transmission mated to the engine and stabbed in the truck. After cranking and cranking with some random firing.. i realized i was washing the cylinder walls with fuel and decided to use the computer for its best features. In the holley software I turned on diagnostic 6 and 7 and then data logged it while trying to start. Turns out the crank signal was junk.. installed a new crank sensor and crossed my fingers. It starts up but doesnt idle properly and has strange loops and humps to it. I confirm a bunch of things are at proper spec but still the AFR is all over while running.... after quite some time it dawned on me that maybe the throttle body i put on was the wrong one.. Turns out it was, i had one laying around the shop for my old gmc work truck which was a 6 cylinder and thats the one that ended up on the truck by mistake. Although they look identical, i was wondering if the stepper motor and holley ecu were off beat somehow.
Cold starts are good, idle is decent with changes to the map showing corresponding changes in throttle response and AFR at idle.. things are good..
Until I shift the transmission into D... no clunk and no foreward movement at all. At first i was almost convinced i pushed the truck around the yard with my van and had left it in drive and not neutral... ( Rushing and not removing the driveshaft is a bad time ).. While looking online, the symptoms i have seem to line up with a broken input sprag.. which would probably want to implode if the truck was pushed in reverse while in gear ( seemed to make sense..? ) So after the truck didnt run and the trans didnt move it, back in the tent trailer it went until recently....
Symptoms and clues :
-No movement in D
-Metal or clutch material in pan ( Z pak clutches, and kolene steels are dark so its hard to differentiate )
-Movement in 2nd gear manually but shaky and bad ( I read that its using the piston mainly to seat these clutches so driving this way should be avoided as to not damage the apply piston ) so very little moving was done in this state. This was also a symptom tied into having a junk input sprag.
-Reverse seemed to work but didnt have much room to test it out, i remember it clunking in gear properly.
Ive decided to sell my dad wagon ( or ls swap it into a rear wheel drive drift car ).... either or i need the truck to be a daily again. Got the truck in the shop and dropped the pan.. Fluid is still obviously new and red but has either clutch material or some fine metal in it. Out she comes!!!
Once i got the trans out and up on a workbench the disassembly started...
I knew the input sprag was only about halfway into the case and just kept thinking I would find a smoking gun somewhere... I did notice some wear on the copper/brass input sprag race, and i had already ordered a 29 element double cage borg worner unit so that will get installed on re-assembly.
Last edited:
Ignore the checkball locations as 1 rolled down when i was taking the valve body off. Im not sure if i should keep these plastic checkballs or not.
Well the trans is disassembled down to the apply piston at the bottom of the case, and the pump is still mated together. I have not found any debris or any metal in the case besides some dirt fluid in the tailhasft housing and near the end of the case internals ( lo roller clutch area, but not much ) So far i have not found any smoking gun pieces that look cooked and in the data log I have of it idling and trying to move, the line pressure is around 26-30% which is around the same as the data logs i have of it running and driving on the old trans. 0% is maximum pressure with this being the same as the prior transmission, i would assume the pump was making good pressure this time around and i seated it fully and measured bellhousing clearances before installing to ensure engagement and operating clearances...
.
Before I pulled the TC , i did rotate it and i could hear it pumping fluid.. but to what degree i obviously couldn't tell.
Im going to keep digging into this but so far the things i need to do next are:
- Confirm clutch packs are orientated and mic'd out endplay in clutch drums. 3-4 clutches had some marks on the backside ( steel side ). So i would think they were trying to mate at somepoint in my trials.
- Confirm apply pistons are still seating properly after trying to move vehicle in manual 2 gear.
- Confirm input drum is not leaking air when applied through the input shaft holes for 3-4 , coast clutch, and input?
- Order sprag clutch to centre section Snap ring ( i sent mine into deep space 9 while removing it )
- Study the apply circuit for pressure when placed in D to check corresponding passages in valve body and valve function
- find the effing issue!
I have been using a ASTM manual but in my searches a few days ago, i did stumble upon a GM manual which is color and illustrated nicely in comparison to the ASTG manual i have. i havent used it yet but flipped past some pages of the fluid circuits so should be helpful.
I will upload it here for others to use if need be. ( end of last post )
Well the trans is disassembled down to the apply piston at the bottom of the case, and the pump is still mated together. I have not found any debris or any metal in the case besides some dirt fluid in the tailhasft housing and near the end of the case internals ( lo roller clutch area, but not much ) So far i have not found any smoking gun pieces that look cooked and in the data log I have of it idling and trying to move, the line pressure is around 26-30% which is around the same as the data logs i have of it running and driving on the old trans. 0% is maximum pressure with this being the same as the prior transmission, i would assume the pump was making good pressure this time around and i seated it fully and measured bellhousing clearances before installing to ensure engagement and operating clearances...
.Before I pulled the TC , i did rotate it and i could hear it pumping fluid.. but to what degree i obviously couldn't tell.
Im going to keep digging into this but so far the things i need to do next are:
- Confirm clutch packs are orientated and mic'd out endplay in clutch drums. 3-4 clutches had some marks on the backside ( steel side ). So i would think they were trying to mate at somepoint in my trials.
- Confirm apply pistons are still seating properly after trying to move vehicle in manual 2 gear.
- Confirm input drum is not leaking air when applied through the input shaft holes for 3-4 , coast clutch, and input?
- Order sprag clutch to centre section Snap ring ( i sent mine into deep space 9 while removing it )
- Study the apply circuit for pressure when placed in D to check corresponding passages in valve body and valve function
- find the effing issue!
I have been using a ASTM manual but in my searches a few days ago, i did stumble upon a GM manual which is color and illustrated nicely in comparison to the ASTG manual i have. i havent used it yet but flipped past some pages of the fluid circuits so should be helpful.
I will upload it here for others to use if need be. ( end of last post )
Last edited:
Nice to see that you're back at it. Too bad the trans is giving you issues after all the time you had put into it.
I'm confused on the concept of breaking the transmission by pushing the vehicle. Without the pump running, you have no clutches engaged, so every setting of the manual valve is still neutral. There's no way to turn the input of the transmission to create fluid pressure, which is why you can't pull start an automatic. Really old autos had a pump on the input and output for that reason, but that's hardly relevant here. I've certainly flat-towed several non-running vehicles with the driveshaft connected. I'm sure I've pulled cars backwards, as well.
During disassembly, did you verify the sprag wasn't installed backwards? I haven't reread for the history of this transmission, but it sounds like it hasn't been driven since it was rebuilt. Did you try unplugging the connector to see if it went in 2nd gear?
During disassembly, did you verify the sprag wasn't installed backwards? I haven't reread for the history of this transmission, but it sounds like it hasn't been driven since it was rebuilt. Did you try unplugging the connector to see if it went in 2nd gear?
Sorry to hear about your troubles, I am sure you will figure it out.
Did you look in the trouble shooting chart of the ATSG manual? Those will give you exact things to check depending on the symptoms of your transmission model. I don't have the book for that particular trans.
I agree with @Blue85 on the backwards sprag, triple check that. Also, precisely measure the inner and outer sprag races, those are extremely critical with sprags. I had a TH400 direct drum that was only ~.001 or .002" off but the sprag rolled easily and was a remanufactured part that I incorrectly assumed was good when I installed it.
Did you look in the trouble shooting chart of the ATSG manual? Those will give you exact things to check depending on the symptoms of your transmission model. I don't have the book for that particular trans.
I agree with @Blue85 on the backwards sprag, triple check that. Also, precisely measure the inner and outer sprag races, those are extremely critical with sprags. I had a TH400 direct drum that was only ~.001 or .002" off but the sprag rolled easily and was a remanufactured part that I incorrectly assumed was good when I installed it.
Last edited:
Just ask @CK5 to include it in the tech manual section.
GM Transmission and Transfer Case Technical Manuals
GM Transmission and Transfer Case Technical Manuals Number Title n/a 1973-1984_NP205_Quick_REQ_Parts_Sheets 14003.01-3 GM STG NP208 Transfer Case 17001.11-1A GM STG Turbo Hydramatic 700R4 Automatic Transmission 17021.24 GM GM STG Hydramatic 4L80-E Transmission Electrical Supplement
ck5.com
I was just thinking that maybe with the truck in D, the input would be engaged and not want to spin the opposing way of the one way input sprag, and me pushing it would force it against the sprag. But you seem absolutely correct in reasoning that without the pump working, the input drum and sprag are not locked in to any one position. With the Manual valve in D position and the truck not running there shouldnt be any way to have that fluid circuit engaged and therefor locking the input sprag.
I looked in the manual this morning and found a troubleshooting area, it says to check the TC for symptoms of no movement in D. I installed the pump stator into the TC and also put the input shaft and drum into the TC to simulate how it would normally live. It seems like i have movement in both directions with the pump and input shaft installed.. Maybe the roller clutch in the TC stator is smoked? I overlooked this as a potential issue as this is a brand new torque converter i had made with a higher stall... but i sure wouldnt be the first person to get burned by a new part that was overlooked at potentially being faulty. Maybe i should go yank one from a junkyard for the reinstall? I did reach out to the friend of a friend who had built the converter for me. Waiting to hear back about bench testing procedures.
As for the sprag races, i did notice some scoring on the race when i first disassembled it but since the sprag was functioning i figured it was okay. Id say there is more than a couple thousands worn off. I do have a new 29 element double cage input sprag showing up that will go back in on reassembly.
I would not put a junkyard converter in your freshly built trans. Many people hook up anew trans to an old trans cooler without flushing it and trash the new trans. I always get the torque converter cut apart and cleaned/checked or a new one with any trans build, and flush the cooler.
There should be a test procedure with the converter. I believe if memory is correct the input shaft should turn both ways, but one way the stator will spin with it, and the other way it should be free, but either way should turn the turbine with the shaft I believe. The pump gear is connected to the TC housing and turns whenever the engine is running. I feel like I am forgetting something though, ask your converter guy or see if the book has a test procedure.
If the sprag race has .002" wore off then its probably junk and no sprag will fix it. You need to triple check those dimensions with a micrometer and look at the tolerances.
Thanks , I will definitely pry into testing procedures more And good call on the junkyard converter. I found the TC that came with this transmission , it should still be cut , cleaned and flushed though as this transmission had a smoked band, reverse input drum and clutches , so I’m sure there Is material in it most likely.
I think I mis spoke on calling it the race. The race would be where the sprags actually ride on? this is the part that has wear, not sure what to call it .. bearing cap?
But I will definitely mic out the inner race and ensure it’s not worn or grooved Before installing the new sprag assembly.
I think I mis spoke on calling it the race. The race would be where the sprags actually ride on? this is the part that has wear, not sure what to call it .. bearing cap?
But I will definitely mic out the inner race and ensure it’s not worn or grooved Before installing the new sprag assembly.
He’s stopped whining to get it out of the tent at least…
