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79' GMC C15 - Spruce Caboose

79 GMC 1500
Overview Gallery Discussion
There’s so many decisions and thoughts going on my head on a normal day just sitting on the couch that the more i learn, the more i get lost... and when i make the inevitable mistakes that will follow, its hard to pick myself back up again and keep going. Motivation is great and itll get you going.. but for me things like this are whats needed. Im at a point with this transmission and my general skill set where i cant remember every thought thats gone on in my head and i forget thoughts and tasks... not anymore! Ive started a diary of the truck so when i leave the shop i can resume fatherhood and being a husband without always running over ideas and trying to remember things to check next time ect.. Not only will this help me not make mistake by forgetting steps and thoughts, but also just let me leave that place exactly where i left it when i close the door. I cant even describe how many " oh, chit ! " moments that have happened over the course of this build or not remembering what i did where 6 years ago.... and mistakes are one thing but the kick in the nads is when you KNEW you had to do it another way and you even told yourself to remember.. but you didnt.

This process is not something i want to do but i think its absolutely necessary to be more efficient and progressive while trying to learn all these new things. Something a good ol boy told me years ago while we were smashing tower pins out day after day, hanging in a harness 300-400 ft in the air was " the efficiency of accuracy ". This simple phrase hasnt left my mind since. Through all my years of persevering through hardships and life altering struggles ive built a hell of a determination to accomplish things and made friends with my devil, but over the last year or two ive noticed its almost plateaued in a sense. The same thing that got me to where i am is the very same thing thats stopping me from moving forward onto the next step, and its time to look at that gift like a handicap and evolve. If anyone else is struggling with not having the right tool anymore, it sounds crazy but less energy focused properly, can be the outstanding difference.

Ive always thought of this thread as my diary but its edited, so the need for a free range space with bad ideas and crossed out thoughts will hopefully really help with sorting all this mind garbage into actual working pieces.


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plus its fun to doodle...
 
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That is an excellent idea. I find myself running out of head space many times trying to keep track of work, home, farm things, and a million other things with my kids.
 
Truckman4life said:
That is an excellent idea. I find myself running out of head space many times trying to keep track of work, home, farm things, and a million other things with my kids.
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if youre like me then im sure it keeps spilling over into the next task, which then makes more spill over ..and over.. and over... until each task is really 6 tasks.
 
Great idea with the diary. I've always used CK5 as my written build reference but I don't post every thought that comes into my head. I do keep a running Google notes thread on my phone of To Do projects and recent part number references. It's great because I can add to it anytime anywhere a thought or idea crosses my mind. I also have a massive 4" binder with all my receipts, instructions, references broken up by system, so I have tabs for engine, drivetrain, electrical.
 
I also do a diary for what I do at my job.
But its not neatly done like yours and very Vague. Lol!

I can’t remember shit anymore. My head spins with ideas and thoughts.
 
I don't worry about stack height, I worry about clearance gap. The old rule of thumb is .010" per clutch disc, so if you have 5 I'd shoot for .050".

I also don't use wavy plates, never have, they just create hot spots that cause premature wear and slow the shift. I'd rather do that hydraulically, but I typically firm the shift anyway.

I've never used an additional steel alone, so I can't really offer advice with experience on that. I think if there is enough clearance to put an extra steel, I would figure a way to get another clutch disc too, then you actually get more holding power. Sometimes you need to machine the piston and remove the wavy plate. Stamped pistons can't be machined. You can also get thinner frictions or steels but then you may be reducing clutch life for holding power. So if you can make it work with the thicker frictions it's best for holding power and clutch life.

If you add a 6th clutch disc then you would shoot for .060" clearance.

Take my advice with a grain of salt on this, I've never built the exact trans you are building, only TH400 and 4L80E.
 
folkenheath said:
I don't worry about stack height, I worry about clearance gap. The old rule of thumb is .010" per clutch disc, so if you have 5 I'd shoot for .050".

I also don't use wavy plates, never have, they just create hot spots that cause premature wear and slow the shift. I'd rather do that hydraulically, but I typically firm the shift anyway.

I've never used an additional steel alone, so I can't really offer advice with experience on that. I think if there is enough clearance to put an extra steel, I would figure a way to get another clutch disc too, then you actually get more holding power. Sometimes you need to machine the piston and remove the wavy plate. Stamped pistons can't be machined. You can also get thinner frictions or steels but then you may be reducing clutch life for holding power. So if you can make it work with the thicker frictions it's best for holding power and clutch life.

If you add a 6th clutch disc then you would shoot for .060" clearance.

Take my advice with a grain of salt on this, I've never built the exact trans you are building, only TH400 and 4L80E.
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Thanks !

The frictions in that clutch arent worn at all, and measure the OE spec of .088 but the new raybestos frictions i got measured .083. Im sure if i play with the clutch long enough i can figure something out that doest require two steels. Since i have installed the sonnax shift kits, i will go ahead and remove the wavy plate and maybe removing that one off sized plate will allow me to get another friction and steel in there. To be clear when you say clutch disk, that is referring to a non composite faced steel clutch, correct?
 
bix said:
Thanks !

The frictions in that clutch arent worn at all, and measure the OE spec of .088 but the new raybestos frictions i got measured .083. Im sure if i play with the clutch long enough i can figure something out that doest require two steels. Since i have installed the sonnax shift kits, i will go ahead and remove the wavy plate and maybe removing that one off sized plate will allow me to get another friction and steel in there. To be clear when you say clutch disk, that is referring to a non composite faced steel clutch, correct?
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Not what I meant, when I say clutch disc I am referring to the disc with the friction material bonded to both surfaces, when I say steel I'm referring to the bare steel plates between the friction discs.

Whatever you do with the stackup, make sure each clutch disc has a clean smooth steel surface on both sides for the friction material to bite, or you could set yourself up for a very early failure.
 
Some new parts finally landed in my lap. I ordered a new forward sprag and low roller clutch and they finally arrived. I wasn't too impressed that the GM low roller clutch is packaged in a bag, and disassembled as if it was a bag of 5 cent candy from the corner store.. Especially with how soft and delicate the springs are. It also is not the same design as the borg warner one i found in my transmission currently.

After laying it all out on the bench it seemed to be in good shape. It had no instructions so after finding some high res photos on the internet of the spring orientation and what not, i got after it since i seemed to have all the pieces needed to move forward.

For the low reverse clutch pack, i replaced the wavy steel plate with 2 regular steels and then used 5 frictions. I used a mix of turbulator steels and kolene steels which came with the clutch packs i purchased from Raybestos. They both measured .068" in thickness, so it shouldn't be an issue Id think. I alternated them so at least the directional holes in the turbulator plates are still affecting the whole clutch pack somewhat.

A nice trick i learned while trying to find the proper clearance was installing the steel and friction plates and the low roller assembly without the inner clutch or any of the other guts. This allows you to put your fingers down the middle and lift up the clutch pack to check clearance spec, and its very easy to take out and re check without the rest of the assembly in the case.
After thinking something didnt feel right a few times i realized there is two tabs on the inside of the case that are elevated above the rest. The wavy plate takes up this gap because it measures .095 - .1" where as the regular steels measure .068". The remedy to this the solution is to take two tabs off both of the steels you are using to replace the wavy plate so they sit nice and flush in the case.. that took me about 4 hours to figure out that ill never get back..:whistle:

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The low roller clutch was a bit intimidating at first but went together pretty simple once i stared at it long enough. By the photos it seems the OE unit is borg warner and the one i ordered was GM.. The outter design is different and more robust and the springs are orientated in the opposing direction. The roller bearings also measure .005 larger than the OE unit.

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After confirming proper rotation and lock i moved on.

The new forward sprag fit tighter to the outter race but the biggest difference was around the inner race, and feels nice and solid while rotated by hand and although it’s just my hand turning the over run clutch, it locks with a much nicer feeling when applied or maybe its just in my head. The double cage design is a significant upgrade from what i can see over the OE unit.

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Finished off the day by getting the sun gear, sun shell, thrust bearings and output shaft in and locked into place. Now to move on to the input drum and more re-assembly.
 
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Blue85 said:
How can this be for the same function? Or is one upside down from the other?
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For the roller clutch? The springs apply force in the same direction, should have been more clear on that, but the OE springs run parallel with the housing ( Flat ) as it bends, and the newer GM one runes perpendicular ( top to bottom ) as it bends. They both apply force on the roller bearing and keep it seated in its position.

clear as mud?:smokin2:
 
in the picture with them side by side, the OE one ( right ) may be upside down. It doesnt have a clear orientation until you put it in the clutch housing, where as the newer one on the left has a different housing top and bottom.
 
At a minimum I would triple check the proper direction and assembly of those sprags and check twice the direction and lockup when you are done with the subassembly. You have to be 100% confident they are correct before you continue.

You likely already know this, but I believe the rounded corners in this picture (green arrow) are supposed to be in contact, not the more squared corners (red). Also, if the direction is 180 from correct it will not work and you will be tearing it all apart again.

You can see some of the dog bones circled in red are rolled wrong, but they should correct if you rotate the inner race the correct direction while you install it.

Don't take my word for this, confirm with the book pictures and orientation.

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