'84 K10 The Animal- Now on Forty Two's

[Blue85]

It seems like torque management. This number still seems wrong to me, but I'm not sure exactly what it does. The notes say something about a 2-speed fuel pump - maybe when you exceed 350 lb-ft, the fuel pump is supposed to go to high speed, but it also is described as a 1-shot maximum torque.



There's a table that is supposed to define the maximum retard possible, but it's only 20 degrees or so. Maybe in these operating ranges, the intended advance is only like +15, which is why it's possible to go to -5. Maybe there is more than one thing kicking in.

 

[Babaganoosh]

The parking brake and brake pedal were my concern as well since I'm not wired for it.

Most likely that's for the converter to unlock and lock on a overdrive trans.

 

[skunked]

It seems like torque management. This number still seems wrong to me, but I'm not sure exactly what it does. The notes say something about a 2-speed fuel pump - maybe when you exceed 350 lb-ft, the fuel pump is supposed to go to high speed, but it also is described as a 1-shot maximum torque.

View attachment 482974

It sounds like it's tied to fuel pressure though? Also notes it's for electronic throttle controlled vehicles, which I am not.

[ECM] 2820 - Maximum Net Engine Torque: Maximum allowed engine torque for Electronic Throttle Control fitted vehicles. This value is also used to control a torque based PCM output, this is used on some Holden vehicles to reduce Fuel Pump voltage when torque is below this value. WARNING: increasing this value on those vehicles will result in reduced fuel pressure, lean conditions and possible engine damage during high torque operation.

There's a table that is supposed to define the maximum retard possible, but it's only 20 degrees or so. Maybe in these operating ranges, the intended advance is only like +15, which is why it's possible to go to -5. Maybe there is more than one thing kicking in.

I've thought about the possibility where multiple timing events are compounding to drop to -5 or more.

Did you notice the description on the Spark Retard vs Torque? Should this table be at zero?

 

[Babaganoosh]

Would it be possible for you to post the tune? I’m curious to take a look at it.

I have multiple hp tuner files that have worked flawless.

 

[Blue85]

Most likely that's for the converter to unlock and lock on a overdrive trans.

I think PCM is also doing cruise control.

Did you notice the description on the Spark Retard vs Torque? Should this table be at zero?

That table is telling it how much retard results in how much torque reduction (apparently the engine reaches zero torque output at 51 degrees retarded ). I would think bigger numbers would help here, because it calculates less retard needed for the desired outcome.

The total retard table is under the main tab "Spark". You might see if those numbers are similar to what you're seeing.

 

[Babaganoosh]

I think PCM is also doing cruise control.


That table is telling it how much retard results in how much torque reduction (apparently the engine reaches zero torque output at 51 degrees retarded ). I would think bigger numbers would help here, because it calculates less retard needed for the desired outcome.

The total retard table is under the main tab "Spark". You might see if those numbers are similar to what you're seeing.

Yes it should, but in the multiple swaps I have done they all point for the trans. The cruise control in my experience is a separate add on from a stand alone harness.

 

[Larry]

I pinched the return so it was at 65sh psi.
Disconnected the power to reset the PCM

I would say it improved some however it still falls on it's face under load and throttle.

These screenshots from a stop light up to 50sh mph


and this is cruising up my neighborhood street

That should more than help a little. 50 to 65 is a huge change on fuel pressure. Are you seeing that disconnecting the battery for a while actually resets the fuel trims? I was not aware that would work. A scan tool or just driving it for a period of time usually is what is needed for the fuel trims to relearn/reset.

About the timing situation, where are your knock sensors located? Do you have the part numbers for them documented? The right and left should be different part numbers if you followed the Resource Thread.

Also curious, if there could be a fuel line, wiring harness, etc. that could be getting pinched, yanked, squeezed or whatever as the engine starts torquing over as load is increased? About 15 years ago when did my first 8.1 swap, I had a fuel pump lead on the back side of the engine on my K10 that would cause issues under hard acceleration as the connector got yanked as the engine torqued to the side. It wasn’t until it finally pulled apart and the fuel pump completely stopped that I finally figured out what was happening . Oddball things like that can cause oddball issues.

Are there any odd noises coming from the engine that you’re planning to address later that you haven’t mentioned? Like a flexplate rubbing a dust cover, exhaust hitting the frame under load or anything like that? Knock sensors will pick up on that stuff. They can also pick up on chassis and exhaust vibrations when using those tiny barely cushioned competition type engine mounts as well.

I also thought I saw where they had this harness in stock instead of building a fresh one? If so, it may be worth looking at the Cam sensor terminal locations inside the connectors. The harnesses are basically the same between an LS to an 8.1 except for the cam and crank sensor terminal locations. The positions are swapped inside the connectors. Possibly, this was an LS harness that they quickly turned into an 8.1 harness and forgot to repin both connectors. If that would be the case, it would probably be on the cam sensor side as it wouldn’t even start if the crank sensor was backasswords. It will run without a cam sensor, but not as good as it should and you should have a code for cam sensor but not always depending what series of codes they turned off in the tune. It’s just one more thing to easily check off the list. I've seen many more pinout issues or pins not fully pushed into the connectors with Howell than tuning problems.

Lastly, do you have any video footage of driving or if it running? Things just don’t add up and getting 2 bad tunes from Howell would be odd. I say that but, I’m chasing my tail with Troy right now on a 0411 swapped L29 454 where I am confident he has the wrong tune in it because the Tech II says its spinning 5000 RPM at an idle and won’t accelerate. I am almost positive he has a 4x reluctor L29 tune in it instead of a 2002 24x L31 350 (that used a 0411 ECM with an actual distributor) base tune with L29 fuel and spark trims sprinkled on top of that. That’s kind of an oddball Frankenstein, but they should have their bone stock 8.1 tunes pretty well dialed in.....one would think and hope

Hopefully, I will have my 8.1 tune for you try sometime today or tomorrow. Still waiting for my buddy to let me know that he got his tuning laptop back from the computer shop.

Here is the 8.1 cam sensor pinouts

 

[skunked]

I think PCM is also doing cruise control.


That table is telling it how much retard results in how much torque reduction (apparently the engine reaches zero torque output at 51 degrees retarded ). I would think bigger numbers would help here, because it calculates less retard needed for the desired outcome.

These are the directions I received for removing torque management. Some of the settings are redundant (not needed) however they're all listed anyway.

Maximum Torque
RPM vs. Gear - Max out
vs. RPM - Max out

Max Torque
Max Torque - Max to 640
Tip In Torque - Max out
Trans Input Max - Max out
Trans Output Max - Max out
Front Axle Max - Max out
Front Propshaft Max - Max out
Rear Axle Max - Max out
Rear Propshaft Max - Max out

ETC Limits
ETC TPS Max - Max out

Spark Retard
vs. Torque Reduction - Zero out

Torque Loss %
vs. Spark Retard - Zero out

Engine, Torque Management, Abuse:

Drivetrain Abuse
RPM > - Max out
Speed < - Zero out
timer vs. Trans Temp - Zero out

Trans, Torque Management:

Abuse Mode
Enabled - Set to Disabled
RPM - Max out
TPS - Max out
Speed - Zero out
Torque Reduction - Zero out

Torque Reduction
Normal - Zero out
Performance (aka Tow/Haul mode) - Zero out

 

[Tnsejed]

I haven't read back through all the stuff. For an 0411 To disable your TM just set the Max torque to 640 lbft. Set Tip In torque every cell to 640lbft.
Trans Input Max all the way to Rear prop max set those to MAX value.

Maximum torque tables RPM vs Gear set every cell to 640. Then 'vs. RPM' set cells to 0.

Under Engine>TM>Abuse, I set this to my max rpm.


I don't think this is your problem though. Is fuel pressure still an issue? Is it an unknown pump?
Anyways, you can use the VCM scanner to add the TM channel and datalog if you would like to see what TM is going.

 

[Tnsejed]

On a tech note I came back to add that the torque model can only be calculated correctly if the Air model for the engine is correct. We can have problems with that when using non OEM equipped displacements. So its not always a reliable calculation.

For the trans PRNDL things I saw on the page before. Depending on what segment swap you've done you'll need to log the pcm and see if it reacts to position selector switch. Weird things can happen here. For example, my 0411 F body computer running a Gen IV LS3 and 2wd 4l80e requires PRNDL Equipped to be set as none for the PCM to recognize gear selector position. When setting to All, or PN only, the PCM will not record the selector position correctly.

The last is common and a quick log to determine which setting works while disregarding logical thinking, is needed.

 

[skunked]

That should more than help a little. 50 to 65 is a huge change on fuel pressure. Are you seeing that disconnecting the battery for a while actually resets the fuel trims? I was not aware that would work. A scan tool or just driving it for a period of time usually is what is needed for the fuel trims to relearn/reset.

About the timing situation, where are your knock sensors located? Do you have the part numbers for them documented? The right and left should be different part numbers if you followed the Resource Thread.

Also curious, if there could be a fuel line, wiring harness, etc. that could be getting pinched, yanked, squeezed or whatever as the engine starts torquing over as load is increased? About 15 years ago when did my first 8.1 swap, I had a fuel pump lead on the back side of the engine on my K10 that would cause issues under hard acceleration as the connector got yanked as the engine torqued to the side. It wasn’t until it finally pulled apart and the fuel pump completely stopped that I finally figured out what was happening . Oddball things like that can cause oddball issues.

Are there any odd noises coming from the engine that you’re planning to address later that you haven’t mentioned? Like a flexplate rubbing a dust cover, exhaust hitting the frame under load or anything like that? Knock sensors will pick up on that stuff. They can also pick up on chassis and exhaust vibrations when using those tiny barely cushioned competition type engine mounts as well.

I also thought I saw where they had this harness in stock instead of building a fresh one? If so, it may be worth looking at the Cam sensor terminal locations inside the connectors. The harnesses are basically the same between an LS to an 8.1 except for the cam and crank sensor terminal locations. The positions are swapped inside the connectors. Possibly, this was an LS harness that they quickly turned into an 8.1 harness and forgot to repin both connectors. If that would be the case, it would probably be on the cam sensor side as it wouldn’t even start if the crank sensor was backasswords. It will run without a cam sensor, but not as good as it should and you should have a code for cam sensor but not always depending what series of codes they turned off in the tune. It’s just one more thing to easily check off the list. I've seen many more pinout issues or pins not fully pushed into the connectors with Howell than tuning problems.

Lastly, do you have any video footage of driving or if it running? Things just don’t add up and getting 2 bad tunes from Howell would be odd. I say that but, I’m chasing my tail with Troy right now on a 0411 swapped L29 454 where I am confident he has the wrong tune in it because the Tech II says its spinning 5000 RPM at an idle and won’t accelerate. I am almost positive he has a 4x reluctor L29 tune in it instead of a 2002 24x L31 350 (that used a 0411 ECM with an actual distributor) base tune with L29 fuel and spark trims sprinkled on top of that. That’s kind of an oddball Frankenstein, but they should have their bone stock 8.1 tunes pretty well dialed in.....one would think and hope

Hopefully, I will have my 8.1 tune for you try sometime today or tomorrow. Still waiting for my buddy to let me know that he got his tuning laptop back from the computer shop.

Here is the 8.1 cam sensor pinouts
View attachment 482986

Good point about the fuel trims resetting, I assumed they would however the long trims are back to -10 to -12 rather quickly. It's hard to start it after the PCM is unplugged.

The knock sensors are the ones called out in your resource thread and the drivers side is different. 213-298 & 213-2829 IIRC.

This truck was running fuel injection already therefore the transition was as simple as hooking up the hot feed from the Howell relay to the existing fuel pump wiring and hooking up the two 6an lines to the special fittings at the rail. I added a 6" extension to the return, otherwise it's a really simple setup. I run a single vortec fuel filter as well. I actually pulled the fuel lines loose yesterday to double check they weren't backwards.

No engine or drivetrain noises to report however it's a crawler on worn 40's with beat panels that will rattle at idle or just after it's put into gear. However I've only seen knock retard once, I've been data logging that for a while and it's definitely not showing when the timing dips hard and the short fuel trims go fat.

This was supposedly an 8.1L harness Matt Howell had in stock. It had longer leads which I wanted for flexibility of mounting the PCM in the interior of the truck. I'll take a look at the cam position sensor wiring to verify it's wired correctly.

I have a 7 logs recorded of it driving however I haven't found a way to post them. They're all in a .hpl format from HP Tuners.

 

[skunked]

I haven't read back through all the stuff. For an 0411 To disable your TM just set the Max torque to 640 lbft. Set Tip In torque every cell to 640lbft.
Trans Input Max all the way to Rear prop max set those to MAX value.

Maximum torque tables RPM vs Gear set every cell to 640. Then 'vs. RPM' set cells to 0.

Under Engine>TM>Abuse, I set this to my max rpm.


I don't think this is your problem though. Is fuel pressure still an issue? Is it an unknown pump?
Anyways, you can use the VCM scanner to add the TM channel and datalog if you would like to see what TM is going.

Those settings are similar to what I posted below however yours is limited to the bare bone settings that disable it.

I never thought about data logging the TM settings, that easy to add.

Yes, fuel pressure is still below the target. I pinched off the return and didn't notice anything significant.

On a tech note I came back to add that the torque model can only be calculated correctly if the Air model for the engine is correct. We can have problems with that when using non OEM equipped displacements. So its not always a reliable calculation.

For the trans PRNDL things I saw on the page before. Depending on what segment swap you've done you'll need to log the pcm and see if it reacts to position selector switch. Weird things can happen here. For example, my 0411 F body computer running a Gen IV LS3 and 2wd 4l80e requires PRNDL Equipped to be set as none for the PCM to recognize gear selector position. When setting to All, or PN only, the PCM will not record the selector position correctly.

The last is common and a quick log to determine which setting works while disregarding logical thinking, is needed.

It's a standalone engine harness with a TH400 and nothing is wired to the transmission or gear selector (art carr).

 

[Babaganoosh]

That should more than help a little. 50 to 65 is a huge change on fuel pressure. Are you seeing that disconnecting the battery for a while actually resets the fuel trims? I was not aware that would work. A scan tool or just driving it for a period of time usually is what is needed for the fuel trims to relearn/reset.

About the timing situation, where are your knock sensors located? Do you have the part numbers for them documented? The right and left should be different part numbers if you followed the Resource Thread.

Also curious, if there could be a fuel line, wiring harness, etc. that could be getting pinched, yanked, squeezed or whatever as the engine starts torquing over as load is increased? About 15 years ago when did my first 8.1 swap, I had a fuel pump lead on the back side of the engine on my K10 that would cause issues under hard acceleration as the connector got yanked as the engine torqued to the side. It wasn’t until it finally pulled apart and the fuel pump completely stopped that I finally figured out what was happening . Oddball things like that can cause oddball issues.

Are there any odd noises coming from the engine that you’re planning to address later that you haven’t mentioned? Like a flexplate rubbing a dust cover, exhaust hitting the frame under load or anything like that? Knock sensors will pick up on that stuff. They can also pick up on chassis and exhaust vibrations when using those tiny barely cushioned competition type engine mounts as well.

I also thought I saw where they had this harness in stock instead of building a fresh one? If so, it may be worth looking at the Cam sensor terminal locations inside the connectors. The harnesses are basically the same between an LS to an 8.1 except for the cam and crank sensor terminal locations. The positions are swapped inside the connectors. Possibly, this was an LS harness that they quickly turned into an 8.1 harness and forgot to repin both connectors. If that would be the case, it would probably be on the cam sensor side as it wouldn’t even start if the crank sensor was backasswords. It will run without a cam sensor, but not as good as it should and you should have a code for cam sensor but not always depending what series of codes they turned off in the tune. It’s just one more thing to easily check off the list. I've seen many more pinout issues or pins not fully pushed into the connectors with Howell than tuning problems.

Lastly, do you have any video footage of driving or if it running? Things just don’t add up and getting 2 bad tunes from Howell would be odd. I say that but, I’m chasing my tail with Troy right now on a 0411 swapped L29 454 where I am confident he has the wrong tune in it because the Tech II says its spinning 5000 RPM at an idle and won’t accelerate. I am almost positive he has a 4x reluctor L29 tune in it instead of a 2002 24x L31 350 (that used a 0411 ECM with an actual distributor) base tune with L29 fuel and spark trims sprinkled on top of that. That’s kind of an oddball Frankenstein, but they should have their bone stock 8.1 tunes pretty well dialed in.....one would think and hope

Hopefully, I will have my 8.1 tune for you try sometime today or tomorrow. Still waiting for my buddy to let me know that he got his tuning laptop back from the computer shop.

Here is the 8.1 cam sensor pinouts
View attachment 482986

Took the words right out of my mouth, I just suck at explaining things. To many times I have heard the cam sensor loosing signal and it dying out, this screams an electrical problem to me.

 

[Blue85]

I also thought I saw where they had this harness in stock instead of building a fresh one? If so, it may be worth looking at the Cam sensor terminal locations inside the connectors. The harnesses are basically the same between an LS to an 8.1 except for the cam and crank sensor terminal locations. The positions are swapped inside the connectors. Possibly, this was an LS harness that they quickly turned into an 8.1 harness and forgot to repin both connectors. If that would be the case, it would probably be on the cam sensor side as it wouldn’t even start if the crank sensor was backasswords. It will run without a cam sensor, but not as good as it should and you should have a code for cam sensor but not always depending what series of codes they turned off in the tune. It’s just one more thing to easily check off the list. I've seen many more pinout issues or pins not fully pushed into the connectors with Howell than tuning problems.


Here is the 8.1 cam sensor pinouts
View attachment 482986

I had considered this possibility, but obviously if it runs at all the crank sensor is wired correctly. On the cam sensor, I've read it both ways. Some say it won't run at all because it waits for the cam sensor to fire the injectors. If it's wired like the 6.0 sensor, it won't give a signal at all (it's a hall effect sensor), so why would it act differently under load?

 

[skunked]

I had considered this possibility, but obviously if it runs at all the crank sensor is wired correctly. On the cam sensor, I've read it both ways. Some say it won't run at all because it waits for the cam sensor to fire the injectors. If it's wired like the 6.0 sensor, it won't give a signal at all (it's a hall effect sensor), so why would it act differently under load?

and for what it's worth, the damn thing sounds good and revs up in park without any issues.

 

[Babaganoosh]

I had considered this possibility, but obviously if it runs at all the crank sensor is wired correctly. On the cam sensor, I've read it both ways. Some say it won't run at all because it waits for the cam sensor to fire the injectors. If it's wired like the 6.0 sensor, it won't give a signal at all (it's a hall effect sensor), so why would it act differently under load?

Pulling on wires, extra vibrations. When the cam sensor goes out it cuts timing will dump fuel and will loose communication and cause miss fires. I believe skunk said on the rubicon it back fired? That would cause it to with unburnt fuel in the cylinders.

 

[skunked]

Pulling on wires, extra vibrations. When the cam sensor goes out it cuts timing will dump fuel and will loose communication and cause miss fires. I believe skunk said on the rubicon it back fired? That would cause it to with unburnt fuel in the cylinders.

When I fouled the plugs I had a missfire coming off Fordyce. That was just bank 2 btw. Haven't had one since replacing the plugs.

 

[Tnsejed]

Yes, fuel pressure is still below the target. I pinched off the return and didn't notice anything significant.

Full Stop. This needs addressed before anything else. Pressure and adequate volume for the application.

 

[Glen Canyon]

Pulling on wires, extra vibrations. When the cam sensor goes out it cuts timing will dump fuel and will loose communication and cause miss fires. I believe skunk said on the rubicon it back fired? That would cause it to with unburnt fuel in the cylinders.

Have you checked your injectors ? When I did my 8.1 swap I fought drivability issues and found the fuel rail and injectors plugged with old ethanol fuel deposits ,also have you scaled your injectors with HP tuners ?

 

[skunked]

Full Stop. This needs addressed before anything else. Pressure and adequate volume for the application.

lol yes it does. I've given up on the stock regulators, they all suck and I can't get enough adjustment out of them. New EP381 pump and filter too. I have a block off plate for the FPR and an an aftermarket FPR in route for delivery today. I also found the Fuel Trim reset in HP Tuners.