y5mgisi
1 ton status
And as far as moving the engine and Trans. I think just get them as good as you easily can and then just deal with where things end up.
CK5
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'90 K5 - Project Betty - LS3 Swap for a DD/Offroad/Utility Build
- Thread starter cliles
- Start date
Down but Not Out - Supercharger vs Turbo Question
So I have made little to no progress for a while now. I changed jobs, and to add more stress, I am being sued by my current employer. Between the lawsuit and increased workload, something had to give. I am hoping to get back with it soon, as I am expecting to have some resolution regarding the suit by the end of the month.
I picked up a Raptor a week ago in the mean time. I had them deleted all of the obnoxious graphics, and replace the textured matte black trim with matching gloss. So it looks as professional as a raptor can.
If the lawsuit doesnt financially ruin me then my plan was to supercharge the raptor in early Q1 2015. When I was researching my options, I hit a snag. There is a similarly priced turbo kit, that offers increased performance.
Currently comparing 2.9L Whipple SC kit 504 RWHP/492 ft-lbs at 9 psi of boost over the stock 330ish RWHP. See attached dyno run
http://whipplesuperchargers.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=22
to the Hellion twin turbo kit, which offers increased gains at lower boost, and noticeably higher gains at approximately the same boost.
http://www.svtperformance.com/?p=1133
I know there is more to it then raw numbers, but could use some advice. Why here and not on a raptor forum, b/c it seems like all the raptor enthusiast cares about is changing lights, blinkers, etc.
This is my basic understanding of SC and TC. SC offer increased gains from idle b/c they are belt driven, but also suffer from parasitic loss. This typically makes them more suitable for larger, lower RPM engines.
Turbos increase their gains at higher RPMs b/c they are exhaust driven, do not have parasitic losses, but suffer from a lagging effect, which typically makes them more suitable for smaller, higher RPM engines.
So based on that premise, the SC is the obvious answer, however supposedly there is little to no lag in the Hellion setup (from Hellion, so pretty biased), and I like the fact you can control the boost (to run it like a sport mode). I have also always been under the impression that TC's were easier on the engine (though I dont know why I think that), which is a concern about the longevity of the stock internals.
Any advice anyone has would be appreciated.
So I have made little to no progress for a while now. I changed jobs, and to add more stress, I am being sued by my current employer. Between the lawsuit and increased workload, something had to give. I am hoping to get back with it soon, as I am expecting to have some resolution regarding the suit by the end of the month.
I picked up a Raptor a week ago in the mean time. I had them deleted all of the obnoxious graphics, and replace the textured matte black trim with matching gloss. So it looks as professional as a raptor can.
If the lawsuit doesnt financially ruin me then my plan was to supercharge the raptor in early Q1 2015. When I was researching my options, I hit a snag. There is a similarly priced turbo kit, that offers increased performance.
Currently comparing 2.9L Whipple SC kit 504 RWHP/492 ft-lbs at 9 psi of boost over the stock 330ish RWHP. See attached dyno run
http://whipplesuperchargers.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=22
to the Hellion twin turbo kit, which offers increased gains at lower boost, and noticeably higher gains at approximately the same boost.
http://www.svtperformance.com/?p=1133
I know there is more to it then raw numbers, but could use some advice. Why here and not on a raptor forum, b/c it seems like all the raptor enthusiast cares about is changing lights, blinkers, etc.
This is my basic understanding of SC and TC. SC offer increased gains from idle b/c they are belt driven, but also suffer from parasitic loss. This typically makes them more suitable for larger, lower RPM engines.
Turbos increase their gains at higher RPMs b/c they are exhaust driven, do not have parasitic losses, but suffer from a lagging effect, which typically makes them more suitable for smaller, higher RPM engines.
So based on that premise, the SC is the obvious answer, however supposedly there is little to no lag in the Hellion setup (from Hellion, so pretty biased), and I like the fact you can control the boost (to run it like a sport mode). I have also always been under the impression that TC's were easier on the engine (though I dont know why I think that), which is a concern about the longevity of the stock internals.
Any advice anyone has would be appreciated.
That sucks about that lawsuit. I was in a similar situation. I was sued for having a non compete. Even though I wasn't competing, and I completely changed markets/ fields. Make sure you have everything documented. I ended up threatening to counter sue with a slander suit. They ended up dropping the case due to lack of evidence in discovery. Best of luck, hope it all works out.
DEMON44
Low-Tech Redneck
Ya that sucks about the suit.
But turbo or super has exactly the same effect on an engine. Boosted is as boosted does.
Turbos can be sized to match the application. But generally you give up either the low end response or choke off the top end. Unless you have them compounded.
But turbo or super has exactly the same effect on an engine. Boosted is as boosted does.
Turbos can be sized to match the application. But generally you give up either the low end response or choke off the top end. Unless you have them compounded.
That's a sweet truck. But forgive me for asking as its your business and not mine, but you're being sued at the moment and you said it yourself that you could end up in financial ruin, so why buy a brand new $55k+ truck and then proceed to customize it?
y5mgisi
1 ton status
I can't help but be curious about the lawsuit as well!
Far as boost, myself personally, I would go the route of whatever is less maintenance in the long run. Either kit will give exciting results. Performance wise, I'm drawn to turbos more than supers.
Far as boost, myself personally, I would go the route of whatever is less maintenance in the long run. Either kit will give exciting results. Performance wise, I'm drawn to turbos more than supers.
Truck was a straight swap for my Jeep SRT, and as far as customizing, its hard to go back from a vehicle with that kind of performance. I am a little worried that if I SC the raptor, then I'll have to SC the K5 just to make it unique enough.
Odd story, the truck I bought was Trevor Daley's of the Dallas Stars (only black hockey player I know, although Wayne Gretzky is probably the only other hockey player I can name). He came back in to the dealership, and ended up buying my Jeep.
I dont really think I could be financially ruined, there was no harm done, I think it is mostly sour grapes on their end. My current employer is bearing all the legal expense as of now. It is possible that if I had to get my own counsel, that legal fees will eat up my play money though.
I agree with you about the maintenance, but I dont know which one would be worse. Obviously the SC has a belt to replace, and I have heard most people end up replacing the tensioner, but I really dont know shat about turbos. I thought they were VW's and diesel's up until a week ago.
Odd story, the truck I bought was Trevor Daley's of the Dallas Stars (only black hockey player I know, although Wayne Gretzky is probably the only other hockey player I can name). He came back in to the dealership, and ended up buying my Jeep.
I dont really think I could be financially ruined, there was no harm done, I think it is mostly sour grapes on their end. My current employer is bearing all the legal expense as of now. It is possible that if I had to get my own counsel, that legal fees will eat up my play money though.
I agree with you about the maintenance, but I dont know which one would be worse. Obviously the SC has a belt to replace, and I have heard most people end up replacing the tensioner, but I really dont know shat about turbos. I thought they were VW's and diesel's up until a week ago.
I finally found a decent write up that address some of my concerns.
Sound like the SC edges out the Turbo for this application b/c of its relative simplicity, superior reliability, and the simple fact the truck redlines at 6000 RPM.
Cost
The cost of supercharger and a turbocharger systems for the same engine are approximately the same, so cost is generally not a factor.
Lag
This is perhaps the biggest advantage that the supercharger enjoys over the turbo. Because a turbocharger is driven by exhaust gasses, the turbocharger's turbine must first spool up before it even begins to turn the compressor's impeller. This results in lag time which is the time needed for the turbine to reach its full throttle from an intermediate rotational speed state. During this lag time, the turbocharger is creating little to no boost, which means little to no power gains during this time. Smaller turbos spool up quicker, which eliminates some of this lag. Turbochargers thus utilize a wastegate, which allows the use of a smaller turbocharger to reduce lag while preventing it from spinning too quickly at high engine speeds. The wastegate is a valve that allows the exhaust to bypass the turbine blades. The wastegate senses boost pressure, and if it gets too high, it could be an indicator that the turbine is spinning too quickly, so the wastegate bypasses some of the exhaust around the turbine blades, allowing the blades to slow down..
A Supercharger, on the other hand, is connected directly to the crank, so there is no "lag". Superchargers are able to produce boost at a very low rpm, especially screw-type and roots type blowers.
Efficiency
This is the turbo's biggest advantage. The turbocharger is generally more economical to operate as it as it is driven primarily by potential energy in the exhaust gasses that would otherwise be lost out the exhaust, whereas a supercharger draws power from the crank, which can be used to turn the wheels. The turbocharger's impeller is also powered only under boost conditions, so there is less parasitic drag while the impeller is not spinning. The turbocharger, however, is not free of inefficiency as it does create additional exhaust backpressure and exhaust flow interruption.
Heat
Because the turbocharger is mounted to the exhaust manifold (which is very hot), turbocharger boost is subject to additional heating via the turbo's hot casing. Because hot air expands (the opposite goal of a turbo or supercharger), an intercooler becomes necessary on almost all turbocharged applications to cool the air charge before it is released into the engine. This increases the complexity of the installation. A centrifugal supercharger on the other hand creates a cooler air discharge, so an intercooler is often not necessary at boost levels below 10psi. That said, some superchargers (especially roots-type superchargers) create hotter discharge temperatures, which also make an intecooler necessary even on fairly low-boost applications.
Surge
Because a turbocharger first spools up before the boost is delivered to the engine, there is a surge of power that is delivered immediately when the wastegate opens (around 3000 rpm). This surge can be damaging to the engine and drivetrain, and can make the vehicle difficult to drive or lose traction.
Back Pressure
Because the supercharger eliminates the need to deal with the exhaust gas interruption created by inserting a turbocharger turbine into the exhaust flow, the supercharger creates no additional exhaust backpressure. The amount of power that is lost by a turbo's turbine reduces it's overall efficiency.
Noise
The turbocharger is generally quieter than the supercharger. Because the turbo's turbine is in the exhaust, the turbo can substantially reduce exhaust noise, making the engine run quieter. Some centrifugal superchargers are known to be noisy and whistley which, annoys some drivers (we, however, love it!)
Reliability
In general, superchargers enjoy a substantial reliability advantage over the turbocharger. When a a turbo is shut off (i.e. when the engine is turned off), residual oil inside the turbo's bearings can be baked by stored engine heat. This, combined with the turbo's extremely high rpms (up to 150,000rpm) can cause problems with the turbo's internal bearings and can shorten the life of the turbocharger. In addition, many turbos require aftermarket exhaust manifolds, which are often far less reliable than stock manifolds.
Ease of Installation
Superchargers are substantially easier to install than a turbos because they have far fewer components and simpler devices. Turbos are complex and require manifold and exhaust modifications, intercoolers, extra oil lines, etc. - most of which is not needed with most superchargers. A novice home mechanic can easily install most supercharger systems, while a turbo installation should be left to a turbo expert.
Maximum Power Output
Turbos are known for their unique ability to spin to incredibly high rpms and make outrages peak boost figures (25psi+). While operating a turbocharger at very high levels of boost requires major modifications to the rest of the engine, the turbo is capable of producing more peak power than superchargers.
Tunability
Turbochargers, because they are so complex and rely on exhaust pressure, are notoriously difficult to tune. Superchargers, on the other hand, require few fuel and ignition upgrades and normally require little or no engine tuning.
Conclusion
While the supercharger is generally considered to be a better method of forced induction for most street and race vehicles, the turbo will always have its place in a more specialized market. Superchargers generally provide a much broader powerband that most drivers are looking for with no "turbo lag". In addition, they are much easier to install and tune, making them more practical for a home or novice mechanic.
Sound like the SC edges out the Turbo for this application b/c of its relative simplicity, superior reliability, and the simple fact the truck redlines at 6000 RPM.
Cost
The cost of supercharger and a turbocharger systems for the same engine are approximately the same, so cost is generally not a factor.
Lag
This is perhaps the biggest advantage that the supercharger enjoys over the turbo. Because a turbocharger is driven by exhaust gasses, the turbocharger's turbine must first spool up before it even begins to turn the compressor's impeller. This results in lag time which is the time needed for the turbine to reach its full throttle from an intermediate rotational speed state. During this lag time, the turbocharger is creating little to no boost, which means little to no power gains during this time. Smaller turbos spool up quicker, which eliminates some of this lag. Turbochargers thus utilize a wastegate, which allows the use of a smaller turbocharger to reduce lag while preventing it from spinning too quickly at high engine speeds. The wastegate is a valve that allows the exhaust to bypass the turbine blades. The wastegate senses boost pressure, and if it gets too high, it could be an indicator that the turbine is spinning too quickly, so the wastegate bypasses some of the exhaust around the turbine blades, allowing the blades to slow down..
A Supercharger, on the other hand, is connected directly to the crank, so there is no "lag". Superchargers are able to produce boost at a very low rpm, especially screw-type and roots type blowers.
Efficiency
This is the turbo's biggest advantage. The turbocharger is generally more economical to operate as it as it is driven primarily by potential energy in the exhaust gasses that would otherwise be lost out the exhaust, whereas a supercharger draws power from the crank, which can be used to turn the wheels. The turbocharger's impeller is also powered only under boost conditions, so there is less parasitic drag while the impeller is not spinning. The turbocharger, however, is not free of inefficiency as it does create additional exhaust backpressure and exhaust flow interruption.
Heat
Because the turbocharger is mounted to the exhaust manifold (which is very hot), turbocharger boost is subject to additional heating via the turbo's hot casing. Because hot air expands (the opposite goal of a turbo or supercharger), an intercooler becomes necessary on almost all turbocharged applications to cool the air charge before it is released into the engine. This increases the complexity of the installation. A centrifugal supercharger on the other hand creates a cooler air discharge, so an intercooler is often not necessary at boost levels below 10psi. That said, some superchargers (especially roots-type superchargers) create hotter discharge temperatures, which also make an intecooler necessary even on fairly low-boost applications.
Surge
Because a turbocharger first spools up before the boost is delivered to the engine, there is a surge of power that is delivered immediately when the wastegate opens (around 3000 rpm). This surge can be damaging to the engine and drivetrain, and can make the vehicle difficult to drive or lose traction.
Back Pressure
Because the supercharger eliminates the need to deal with the exhaust gas interruption created by inserting a turbocharger turbine into the exhaust flow, the supercharger creates no additional exhaust backpressure. The amount of power that is lost by a turbo's turbine reduces it's overall efficiency.
Noise
The turbocharger is generally quieter than the supercharger. Because the turbo's turbine is in the exhaust, the turbo can substantially reduce exhaust noise, making the engine run quieter. Some centrifugal superchargers are known to be noisy and whistley which, annoys some drivers (we, however, love it!)
Reliability
In general, superchargers enjoy a substantial reliability advantage over the turbocharger. When a a turbo is shut off (i.e. when the engine is turned off), residual oil inside the turbo's bearings can be baked by stored engine heat. This, combined with the turbo's extremely high rpms (up to 150,000rpm) can cause problems with the turbo's internal bearings and can shorten the life of the turbocharger. In addition, many turbos require aftermarket exhaust manifolds, which are often far less reliable than stock manifolds.
Ease of Installation
Superchargers are substantially easier to install than a turbos because they have far fewer components and simpler devices. Turbos are complex and require manifold and exhaust modifications, intercoolers, extra oil lines, etc. - most of which is not needed with most superchargers. A novice home mechanic can easily install most supercharger systems, while a turbo installation should be left to a turbo expert.
Maximum Power Output
Turbos are known for their unique ability to spin to incredibly high rpms and make outrages peak boost figures (25psi+). While operating a turbocharger at very high levels of boost requires major modifications to the rest of the engine, the turbo is capable of producing more peak power than superchargers.
Tunability
Turbochargers, because they are so complex and rely on exhaust pressure, are notoriously difficult to tune. Superchargers, on the other hand, require few fuel and ignition upgrades and normally require little or no engine tuning.
Conclusion
While the supercharger is generally considered to be a better method of forced induction for most street and race vehicles, the turbo will always have its place in a more specialized market. Superchargers generally provide a much broader powerband that most drivers are looking for with no "turbo lag". In addition, they are much easier to install and tune, making them more practical for a home or novice mechanic.
y5mgisi
1 ton status
Sounds about right to me.
If you get a new supercharger make sure its one of the new high helix units that are more efficient than the old roots type, and give you much better low end than a centrifugal supercharger (a centrifugal looks more like a turbo that has a belt to the crank and a gearbox to multiply the turbine speed).
Twin Screw
They are referring to it as a twin screw design.
From the website
Front entry W175ax (2.9 liters) Whipple twin-screw supercharger that significantly outflows competitions 2.3L roots-type systems
Integrated casting to minimize bolt on pieces, adapters, leaks and flow restrictions
Integrated Crusher™shaped inlet for maximum airflow capacity and minimal rotor cavitations
Integrated Crusher™172mm oval inlet outflows smaller 90mm inlets such as other systems
Big Mouth Whipple Crusher™ plastic air inlet for increased velocity and lower inlet temps vs. steel and aluminum tubes
Optional Crusher™ 172mm billet mono-blade throttle body
Integrated design allows for oversized intercooler core compared to other smaller intercooler cores giving Whipple lower air charge temps which allows more boost and timing to be run on pump gas
Massive air-to-water aluminum bar-plate intercooler offers more cooling than any other positive displacement system available
Whipple Superchargers massive oversized intercooled air-bypass system for industry leading reduction of burst knock and incredible fuel economy
Self-contained oversized oil system for dramatically reduced oil temps in even the most demanding conditions
Exclusive 3x5 rotor combo for significant increase in airflow under the curve than less efficient 4x6 rotor combo
Center discharge port for better cylinder to cylinder distribution then other twin-screws with cobbled together billet adapters and forward facing discharge
Discharge down design allows for less pressure loss which gives more power at lower boost levels
Top mount design allows for cooler operation then upside down SC’s that conduct heat from engine and are trapped by runners and covers, causing hotter manifold temps and less power per pound of boost
More boost at the “hit” than any other twin-screw
Flat torque curve for incredible acceleration
Oversized heat exchanger for incredible intercooler water temps
Fits under factory hood with no modifications
No internal modifications required
Completed installation looks factory installed, not some cobbled together kit with multiple billet adapters
Kits come complete with all necessary parts and hardware for installation
Unique oil level sight glass for easy oil level and quality check, no dipstick to bind or misread
Plug and play wiring, no cutting
High flow air filter system, coolant reservoir is maintained
High flow fuel injectors (63lb/hr)
Proven 6-rib belt system with heavy duty spring loaded tensioner and adjustable idler system
Stainless steel jack-shaft with unique plastic cover for increased safety
OEM quick connect fittings for easy installation
Complete and tuner kits available
Available in wrinkle black, polish or any custom color
Easily upgradeable with bigger throttle bodies (172mm or twin 75mm)
Instant boost at the touch of the throttle
3 minute pulley changes
1 year warranty for all parts included
Optional 3/36, 5/60, and 5/100 warranty
- See more at: https://whipplesuperchargers.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=22#sthash.8KudBqtp.dpuf
They are referring to it as a twin screw design.
From the website
Front entry W175ax (2.9 liters) Whipple twin-screw supercharger that significantly outflows competitions 2.3L roots-type systems
Integrated casting to minimize bolt on pieces, adapters, leaks and flow restrictions
Integrated Crusher™shaped inlet for maximum airflow capacity and minimal rotor cavitations
Integrated Crusher™172mm oval inlet outflows smaller 90mm inlets such as other systems
Big Mouth Whipple Crusher™ plastic air inlet for increased velocity and lower inlet temps vs. steel and aluminum tubes
Optional Crusher™ 172mm billet mono-blade throttle body
Integrated design allows for oversized intercooler core compared to other smaller intercooler cores giving Whipple lower air charge temps which allows more boost and timing to be run on pump gas
Massive air-to-water aluminum bar-plate intercooler offers more cooling than any other positive displacement system available
Whipple Superchargers massive oversized intercooled air-bypass system for industry leading reduction of burst knock and incredible fuel economy
Self-contained oversized oil system for dramatically reduced oil temps in even the most demanding conditions
Exclusive 3x5 rotor combo for significant increase in airflow under the curve than less efficient 4x6 rotor combo
Center discharge port for better cylinder to cylinder distribution then other twin-screws with cobbled together billet adapters and forward facing discharge
Discharge down design allows for less pressure loss which gives more power at lower boost levels
Top mount design allows for cooler operation then upside down SC’s that conduct heat from engine and are trapped by runners and covers, causing hotter manifold temps and less power per pound of boost
More boost at the “hit” than any other twin-screw
Flat torque curve for incredible acceleration
Oversized heat exchanger for incredible intercooler water temps
Fits under factory hood with no modifications
No internal modifications required
Completed installation looks factory installed, not some cobbled together kit with multiple billet adapters
Kits come complete with all necessary parts and hardware for installation
Unique oil level sight glass for easy oil level and quality check, no dipstick to bind or misread
Plug and play wiring, no cutting
High flow air filter system, coolant reservoir is maintained
High flow fuel injectors (63lb/hr)
Proven 6-rib belt system with heavy duty spring loaded tensioner and adjustable idler system
Stainless steel jack-shaft with unique plastic cover for increased safety
OEM quick connect fittings for easy installation
Complete and tuner kits available
Available in wrinkle black, polish or any custom color
Easily upgradeable with bigger throttle bodies (172mm or twin 75mm)
Instant boost at the touch of the throttle
3 minute pulley changes
1 year warranty for all parts included
Optional 3/36, 5/60, and 5/100 warranty
- See more at: https://whipplesuperchargers.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=22#sthash.8KudBqtp.dpuf
Referring to post 689: That sounds like it was written by a SC company, maybe a little biased towards SC's. There are some...... embelishments or otherwise inaccuracies about turbos in there.
Turbos are no more maintenance than an NA (naturally aspirated) engine.
Most modern turbo systems are water cooled and you don't see oil coking in the housing due to high heat anymore. Plus synthetic oils have proven more durable and efficient under the heat stress of a turbo just as well as an NA or SC engine.
They claim an increase in backpressure because of a turbo. This is minimal at best and far below the parasitic loss of a belt driven SC. And that's only between the the head and turbine (short distance), the rest of the exh should be as free flowing as possible just like an NA or SC to see the best gains. A quality turbine housing expells exhaust gasses AND heat just as fast as an exh manifold.
Which brings me to their heat claims. As said, a properly designed turbine housing expells heat and exhaust gasses through the turbine wheel, helping it spin faster. There is very little heat transfer to the "cold side" of the turbo, meaning the pressurized air coming out is no more hotter than the pressurized air coming out of an SC sitting on top of an engine block being heat soaked. Intercoolers are best in both applications. There are also turbo "blankets" to block heat from saturating a turbo cold side if you really think it's necessary (usually not on a DD/weekend toy).
Lag. An SC isn't making boost off idle, but because of it's mechanical connection it spools up at the same rate as RPMs rise depending on pulley size etc. so you don't feel any lag. The boost is increasing as RPMs rise. With a turbo the wheel is always spinning but not fast enough to build pressure untill a certain RPM. This is depending on the size of the turbine housing (hot side). But you feel lag because there is no mech connection. You could be at 2000, 2500, 3000, etc RPM and not be under boost. Then lay into it and it will come on like a switch and put you in the seat. IMHO you suffer a bit of lag but gain efficiency with a turbo vs an SC.
Tuning is no more difficult with a turbo vs an SC. With modern FI set ups all the work is already done for you. Most kits you buy from a turbo company or an SC company come with the plug n play power programmer you just press a couple buttons, download it and done. Most systems measure the air going in and add fuel accordingly.
If you can't tell, I like turbos. I've been playing with my old Volvo wagon and pushing more power through it's turbo 4cyl. OE manufacturers have been using turbos for a long long time to make good, useable DD power out of smaller, more efficient engines. If supercharging was cheaper, more efficient, more reliable, etc. I think all those OE mfg's would be using them over turbos. There are OE SC cars out there too and most of those were either designed for brute power (Mustang and such) or smooth transitional power in a mid-size car with a small engine (GM 3800 V6).
That's not to say I dislike SCs. They work just fine. Look at that loooong flat torque curve. You're gonna feel that instantly when you need it at whatever RPM. Where a turbo would take a split second (literally) to respond before planting you in your seat.
I don't think you'll dislike either one. But if efficiency is a goal, I think a turbo set up would net you better MPGs than an SC (if you can keep your foot out of it). SC whine is cool and you kinda hear it all the time. Turbo spool sounds way cooler (my opinion) and you don't have to hear it unless you lay into it. Kinda stealthier that way.
That's all I got.
Turbos are no more maintenance than an NA (naturally aspirated) engine.
Most modern turbo systems are water cooled and you don't see oil coking in the housing due to high heat anymore. Plus synthetic oils have proven more durable and efficient under the heat stress of a turbo just as well as an NA or SC engine.
They claim an increase in backpressure because of a turbo. This is minimal at best and far below the parasitic loss of a belt driven SC. And that's only between the the head and turbine (short distance), the rest of the exh should be as free flowing as possible just like an NA or SC to see the best gains. A quality turbine housing expells exhaust gasses AND heat just as fast as an exh manifold.
Which brings me to their heat claims. As said, a properly designed turbine housing expells heat and exhaust gasses through the turbine wheel, helping it spin faster. There is very little heat transfer to the "cold side" of the turbo, meaning the pressurized air coming out is no more hotter than the pressurized air coming out of an SC sitting on top of an engine block being heat soaked. Intercoolers are best in both applications. There are also turbo "blankets" to block heat from saturating a turbo cold side if you really think it's necessary (usually not on a DD/weekend toy).
Lag. An SC isn't making boost off idle, but because of it's mechanical connection it spools up at the same rate as RPMs rise depending on pulley size etc. so you don't feel any lag. The boost is increasing as RPMs rise. With a turbo the wheel is always spinning but not fast enough to build pressure untill a certain RPM. This is depending on the size of the turbine housing (hot side). But you feel lag because there is no mech connection. You could be at 2000, 2500, 3000, etc RPM and not be under boost. Then lay into it and it will come on like a switch and put you in the seat. IMHO you suffer a bit of lag but gain efficiency with a turbo vs an SC.
Tuning is no more difficult with a turbo vs an SC. With modern FI set ups all the work is already done for you. Most kits you buy from a turbo company or an SC company come with the plug n play power programmer you just press a couple buttons, download it and done. Most systems measure the air going in and add fuel accordingly.
If you can't tell, I like turbos. I've been playing with my old Volvo wagon and pushing more power through it's turbo 4cyl. OE manufacturers have been using turbos for a long long time to make good, useable DD power out of smaller, more efficient engines. If supercharging was cheaper, more efficient, more reliable, etc. I think all those OE mfg's would be using them over turbos. There are OE SC cars out there too and most of those were either designed for brute power (Mustang and such) or smooth transitional power in a mid-size car with a small engine (GM 3800 V6).
That's not to say I dislike SCs. They work just fine. Look at that loooong flat torque curve. You're gonna feel that instantly when you need it at whatever RPM. Where a turbo would take a split second (literally) to respond before planting you in your seat.
I don't think you'll dislike either one. But if efficiency is a goal, I think a turbo set up would net you better MPGs than an SC (if you can keep your foot out of it). SC whine is cool and you kinda hear it all the time. Turbo spool sounds way cooler (my opinion) and you don't have to hear it unless you lay into it. Kinda stealthier that way.
That's all I got.
Yeah, that article was definitely written by someone biased towards superchargers.
Martin
Martin
y5mgisi
1 ton status
On a gas dd, I would still do the super. Especially if I was installing it myself.
I am starting to warm up to the TT setup, however there is almost no customer reference available. It is a considerable amount over the SC, only to find out that there is undue lag or reliability issues. Their are a couple of guys on the raptor forum that should have their install complete before I have to make a decision.
I will likely hire this one out. Hell, I could offset a decent portion of the cost by cutting down on rental car days alone.
I will likely hire this one out. Hell, I could offset a decent portion of the cost by cutting down on rental car days alone.
K5 Finish Out
Well all, I am afraid I am considering the cowards way out for the K5.
I got another baby coming in October, the 2.5 year I got won't let me get much work done, this lawsuit looks like it is going to stretch out another year, and several more excuses.
I am going to start looking into shops that could finish the aluminum dash, install the harness, cooling, and the last odds and ends to get it running.
I don't plan on abandoning the build, there is still plenty more things to do, but I really need to get it somewhat drive-able to get the family's enthusiasm (perhaps even mine too) back in the project. I am worried that if I don't get the vehicle to a more useful state before the baby comes, the build may fall apart.
Does anybody have any shop recommendations in DFW?
I live in Colleyville (central), and I am currently working in Highland Village (North Central), so anything shop in Flowermound, Grapevine, Lewisville, Southlake, or some place I could visit on the way to or from work would be preferable. But a quick google doesn't yield many in the area.
Well all, I am afraid I am considering the cowards way out for the K5.
I got another baby coming in October, the 2.5 year I got won't let me get much work done, this lawsuit looks like it is going to stretch out another year, and several more excuses.
I am going to start looking into shops that could finish the aluminum dash, install the harness, cooling, and the last odds and ends to get it running.
I don't plan on abandoning the build, there is still plenty more things to do, but I really need to get it somewhat drive-able to get the family's enthusiasm (perhaps even mine too) back in the project. I am worried that if I don't get the vehicle to a more useful state before the baby comes, the build may fall apart.
Does anybody have any shop recommendations in DFW?
I live in Colleyville (central), and I am currently working in Highland Village (North Central), so anything shop in Flowermound, Grapevine, Lewisville, Southlake, or some place I could visit on the way to or from work would be preferable. But a quick google doesn't yield many in the area.
I don't have any experience other than over the phone ordering transmission parts, but you might call Jakes Performance and see if they are interested. They seem to work on anything performance.
http://www.jakesperformance.com/Projects.html
http://www.jakesperformance.com/Projects.html
I am trying to get back on this. After going through my thread, notes, emails, etc. I have decided just to unclock the T-Case and forgo any additional spending/experimentation on the front driveshaft. I dont think substantial modification will be required to the tcase mount I made.
Having said that, since the front axle is halfway through being rotated, it is just as easy to finish as it is to return to stock. The problem I am having here is the precision. I am not sure how I can accurately rotate the C's to more or less the same degree on each side. Let me elaborate on the problem.
You have to get the C's unbelievably hot to expand enough to turn. I tried welding a piece of scrap onto the C and then using an angle finder on it, but it still burnt up. Other issues are there are not a lot of true flat sides of the C to weld to.
Second, it takes a huge cheater to rotate, which even if it spun freely, would make it difficult to get within 0.5 degrees.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Having said that, since the front axle is halfway through being rotated, it is just as easy to finish as it is to return to stock. The problem I am having here is the precision. I am not sure how I can accurately rotate the C's to more or less the same degree on each side. Let me elaborate on the problem.
You have to get the C's unbelievably hot to expand enough to turn. I tried welding a piece of scrap onto the C and then using an angle finder on it, but it still burnt up. Other issues are there are not a lot of true flat sides of the C to weld to.
Second, it takes a huge cheater to rotate, which even if it spun freely, would make it difficult to get within 0.5 degrees.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
