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A '69 Build... "Brought to you by Don Juan Productions" Full index added to page #1

Overview Gallery Discussion
NorCal69 said:
I hear what you are saying, Heath. I think all keep going on the exterior bushings and really take a look at it after. I have everything (Feet area of the TC's) just on that 1/4" stock for now. I can always add bushings under there if need be and lower that section down to plane in with the rest of the tube. I plan on adding some more beef in that area when I'm closer with the rest of the carcass..

The one thing that I still see that could bring up some troubles is only having one crossmember in there. That would be the back one. I guess that the "hoop" kinda acts as one, but not really. You see any problem with that? I might be able to do some kind of bent tube over the entire drivetrain, maybe over the low part of the trans???:dunno:
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Sounds like a good plan to me, you didn't move the bushings out to far, and you do have stiffer motor mounts, so you might be fine, it's hard to say, which is why I err on the side of caution. Eric is probably right, he has built a lot of stuff, it is probably fine. However, I don't like to have any doubt, when I make something I want to know to the best of my knowledge that it is going to be fine.

As for the one crossmember, is it just those awesome bent tubes with the bushings on the end? Unless I am missing something. From what I see, you know the big horseshoe you have going on in the middle, what if you extend that back a small bit, and put 2 bushings perendicular to the ends of it. Then, weld 4 tabs on your fancy double pipe looking crossmember in the back protruding out the front of the bottom tube. Should line up almost perfect to have that support the center mount in another location. If I am correct that would have your tcase supported by 4 bushings then? Unless I missed some?
 
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folkenheath said:
However, I don't like to have any doubt, when I make something I want to know to the best of my knowledge that it is going to be fine.
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That's why I'm asking a million questions on my design. I don't want to build something that is going to just look neat and not work on the rig.

I really do appreciate the help guys..:bow:

Here is a pic of the overall design that I have in my melon.

The main question would be an additional crossmember going from frame rail to frame rail. The way I see it, I really only have two. The engine mount and as Heath put it, My fancy double pipe looking crossmember..:pimp:

The round things are the fab bushings, the oblong square looking thing would be one of Kerts two bolt staked cage flange. The purple would be an additional crossmember from frame rail to frame rail.

http://diy4x.com/cart/index.php?route=product/product&path=39&product_id=99

I really don't even know if the front fab bushings and support will work out yet. They would need to go over the exhaust in that area. It looks doable, but on the pass side, I don't have a lot of the hoop visible. I needed to tuck it under the trans pan a little more on that side for clearance. But if they do work, maybe run a bent tube over the lowest part of the trans.

Do you think that it would even be needed, if I could even do it??


PaintDrawing.png
 
Your bushings in the back was exactly what I was referring too, sounds like you already had that plan.

I think if you make the red/purple one in the front with the crossbar over the top, plus the 2 mounts in the back to the double pipe x-member, that you don't even need the center one with the red diamond link connecting it. That one will help, but since it is only connected to one frame rail it will want to twist that frame rail, which probably isn't an issue because your sliders and cage will stiffen the frame a lot. Just keep in mind you won't be able to take the front x-member out without removing the trans first, but as long as you can remove the trans by just removing those two bushing bolts, and you can get the exhaust out without removing the trans, who cares.

Also, in my opinion, if you have two bushings holding the engine in at 24" widths, then the rear of the trans should have 2 or less bushings, at a maximum of the same 24" widths, preferably narrower. The crossmember can have as many bushings holding it in as you want if the trans is only bolted to it in 2 places toward the center with bushings. This may not be necessary, but I would feel pretty confident it wasn't going to bust a trans case when the chassis flexed or you got on the throttle.
 
NorCal69 said:
Here is a pic of the overall design that I have in my melon.

The main question would be an additional crossmember going from frame rail to frame rail. The way I see it, I really only have two.
Click to expand...

You do have your double tube crossmember at the back, but I dont yet see where the other is. One potential problem is that the two existing bushings are hard mounted to the frame without any hard mounted crossmember tieing the bushing mounts together. When the frame twists, there's a lot of potential leverage in those two bushing mounts being able to rotate your transfer case around.

One option would be to rotate the two existing bushings around and hard mount them to the doubler mounting plate you have, then hardmount your big "U" tube to the frame without bushings.
 
OK Mike.....

I tried to stay out of this for a while and let you work through it, because I don't think it's right to force my opinions on people every step of the way during their build. It's important to let the creative process "happen" and your process is going to be different from mine because we're different people. :thumb:

However, I'll make a few "high-level" comments and let you process them in your own way and apply what you feel is most important:

1. Study what the factory did. The GM engineers balanced the entire drivetrain on a set of widely-spaced motor mounts and very closely-spaced transfercase mount(s) This creates a "triangle" mounting scheme so even as the frame twists under torsion...the loads end up in the bushings. As you start to add lots of extra bushings (or as mentioned, space them really far apart) you increase the leverage against the hard parts of your driveline (aluminum transmission housing, xfercase adapter, etc) and when the frame flexes....those forces may not end up in the bushings anymore. You may be using your tranny case as a big swaybar and loading it up with all kinds of crazy torsional loads.

2. Front xfercase output - In 4:1 range and coupled with a beefy BBC, try to imagine the amount of torque coming out of that output shaft. The case is going to want to rotate A LOT when your tires are bound up and it's going to want to twist the entire driveline in the process. Even the factory had a torque rod that connected the 205 to the frame (though most have been removed in the last 40 years, so you may never have even seen one!).....again, I'd study what GM did there and consider a plan to support the case on the front output side with some sort of bushing.

3. Future Service / Trailside Repairs (gasp!) - Long curvy tubes are cool looking, but how will you drop your transmission pan if you need to change the fluid or deal with any kind of valvebody issue? Same question if you need to remove the Doubler but don't want to remove the entire crossmember... sometimes a couple of smaller crossmembers gives you more access and serviceability than one monolithic large one.

4. Skidplate or Crossmember, but not both - It's looking like you might soon be tempted to plate over some of those tubes and call it a bellypan skid. :thinking: Consider what it would be like if the entire weight of the truck was dropped onto that skidplate/crossmember combo... would you want 6000Lbs on those bushings pushing the entire drivetrain upwards? You could create some real nightmares by allowing all the hard jolts to be transferred directly into the drivetrain like a big shock-absorber.... The proven strategy seems to be building a seperate, hardmounted skidplate (to the frame) with maybe 1/2" gap from the drivetrain so that the severe rock impacts don't telegraph directly into the expensive parts.


Those are just a few random ideas that I keep in mind when I do my own crossmember / skidplate planning.... feel free to use as much (or as little) of it as you'd like. As I said, it's your truck and your build.... which makes it kind of personal.


-G
 
And that's why I love your opinion on this type of thing. :bow::bow:

It will be a month before I can work on the rig again with traveling B-ball, but this is the the stuff that I wanted to consider while I'm not under the rig.


Good Stuff and a lot of reading.

Thanks Greg. I knew that you had some thought on it. I guess that's why your build is so awesome to all of us.
 
I have nothing technical to add to this. Looks like with all that tubing under there you were going to try and speed slide your way across the boulders. And being a skater I liked that approach. Just listen to Greg not me. I've always kinda been a F-it and go approach:whistle: which has gotten me into some trouble in the past.
 
Lol, I'm with ya Chris.. That was the plan. Use the tubes to slide over the trees that have fallen down while snow wheelin'. Greg's right though, I probably don't want to slide 6k worth of rig on that thing.

So it's kinda back to square one again and I'm all good with that. Read as much as I can and at the same time, try to suck some more knowledge out of the smart guys.. I'm really trying not to do the whole **** it plan, but with enough beer, who knows what will happen in the end...:pimp:
 
NorCal69 said:
Lol, I'm with ya Chris.. That was the plan. Use the tubes to slide over the trees that have fallen down while snow wheelin'. Greg's right though, I probably don't want to slide 6k worth of rig on that thing.

So it's kinda back to square one again and I'm all good with that. Read as much as I can and at the same time, try to suck some more knowledge out of the smart guys.. I'm really trying not to do the whole **** it plan, but with enough beer, who knows what will happen in the end...:pimp:
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I don't see a problem sliding your rig over that, as long as the tranny is bolted to it with bushings and not solid, although it would be better if yor mounts to the frame were solid. Heck, on leaf spring trucks the weight of the entire truck is on those bushings all day every day. (Unless you are jumping it!) I see absolotely no problem with making the crossmember also a skidplate, as long as it is all fastened down correctly. In fact, most Jeeps are exactly that if I recall correctly, the cross member is a skid plate. I do agree with Greg though, his triangle association was exactly what I was trying to convey when I said you want the rear mounts preferably closer to the center than the front mounts. However, I did miss the tranny pan removal issue. :doah: Yeah, that would be a PITA to change tranny fluid. Good catch Greg.
 
Ended up in the garage for a little bit this weekend. B-ball season was good, but I'm a kinda happy it's over, at least for a month of two..

Had this on my brain for some time now. I know you guys were talking about the leverage on the two separate bushings on the back of the big U. I ended up bending up the back half and throwing in just one bushing. The way it sits now is the two side bushings sit about 1" closer together than the engine crossmember mounts, using the same bushings and just the rear one.

Still got a ways to go on some of the other factors with the doubler mount, but thinking that this may of crossed one off the list. Maybe??? :D



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It looks really good, except I would put one more bushing between the front trans mount and your center support, those puts both bushings in the center. They way you have it now with the center bolted directly to the mount it puts the torque out to those bushings on the outside. Once you do that, as long as you are satisfied with your trans pan access then you should be good to go.
 
Not sure if I follow you yet, Heath, but I really want to. Just not sure if I'm seeing where you would install the single.

I still plan on using two more bushings on the sides that mount over the collectors. As far as the trans access, I was thinking of using two of the cage inserts directly behind those two mounts. This should give me easy access to the trans pan while still keeping everything else suspended.

The way it sits in my mind is by the time I have everything welded onto the removable side plates, the entire mount should split into seven separate pieces.

1- Rear crossmember that is welded to two removable plates on the frame.
4- Support legs that are welded to the removable plates and attached to the hoop with bushings.
2- The bottom hoop that that can be split into two separate pieces.

Do you like the idea of the single bushing in the back VS the double that was on the original plan? It seems to me, that is what you guys were trying to beat into my skull with the leverage of tying two bushings to the rear crossmember. The entire thing, if needed, should be able to twist separately than the frame on the single much more than the double ever would have. This should keep the twisting of the entire drivetrain down VS the original mounting using the double bushing.

I still need to come up with a way to support the end of the 205. I have the original mount the bolted to the end of the 205 and used two hockey puck bushings that mounted to the frame. I've been thinking about what Greg wrote up about the triangle that GM did originally. They kept the trans and transfer mounts close to the center of the rig creating the triangle. The thing that I can't understand about that is the mounting of the 205 to the frame. It seems that would have been a huge leverage point hanging as far out as possible. I need to somehow figure out how to support this off of the hoop and nothing more, correct? Any additional mounts that did not come off of the hoop would add a fulcrum to twist off of. :confused:
 
NorCal69 said:
Not sure if I follow you yet, Heath, but I really want to. Just not sure if I'm seeing where you would install the single.

I still plan on using two more bushings on the sides that mount over the collectors. As far as the trans access, I was thinking of using two of the cage inserts directly behind those two mounts. This should give me easy access to the trans pan while still keeping everything else suspended.

The way it sits in my mind is by the time I have everything welded onto the removable side plates, the entire mount should split into seven separate pieces.

1- Rear crossmember that is welded to two removable plates on the frame.
4- Support legs that are welded to the removable plates and attached to the hoop with bushings.
2- The bottom hoop that that can be split into two separate pieces.

Do you like the idea of the single bushing in the back VS the double that was on the original plan? It seems to me, that is what you guys were trying to beat into my skull with the leverage of tying two bushings to the rear crossmember. The entire thing, if needed, should be able to twist separately than the frame on the single much more than the double ever would have. This should keep the twisting of the entire drivetrain down VS the original mounting using the double bushing.

I still need to come up with a way to support the end of the 205. I have the original mount the bolted to the end of the 205 and used two hockey puck bushings that mounted to the frame. I've been thinking about what Greg wrote up about the triangle that GM did originally. They kept the trans and transfer mounts close to the center of the rig creating the triangle. The thing that I can't understand about that is the mounting of the 205 to the frame. It seems that would have been a huge leverage point hanging as far out as possible. I need to somehow figure out how to support this off of the hoop and nothing more, correct? Any additional mounts that did not come off of the hoop would add a fulcrum to twist off of. :confused:
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I do like that single bushing, it's a step in the right direction, however, the two outside of that add stiffness to your mounts. What I was saying is to mount the tcase adaptor to your hoop with a bushing. But you will actually need two bushings probably(missed this in my other post), one for both adaptors (trans and doubler adaptor). But with both those mounted in the center with bushings, then it won't really matter how you mount the hoop, you could mount it solid to the frame if you wanted, but more bushings wont hurt anything at that point because it's like they are in series, not in parallel if you know what I mean.
 
Gotcha.. Thanks!!

I actually talked to ORD yesterday and ordered 4 hockey puck bushings for 4 bucks each. It will be nice to actually move on from this point and figure out how to brace the 205 next. Working with just everything barely tacked in gets old. I can't wait to burn all of this tube together, including the cage and sliders this month.
 
NorCal69 said:
Do you like the idea of the single bushing in the back VS the double that was on the original plan? It seems to me, that is what you guys were trying to beat into my skull with the leverage of tying two bushings to the rear crossmember.
Click to expand...

Yea, that's what they were beating on you about. Although I don't think you even need that back single mount. The two wider mounts you have will do all the work. I do still think it would be better to solid mount your big U tube to the frame and put the bushings right under the doubler plate instead. Without a solid crossmember under there, the frame will be able twist up and down which could apply torque to the transmission case.

As far as the extra 205 mount to replicate the factory frame mount goes, it's probably more necessary with big tires or a big motor in 4wd. When I talked to ORD about mine, they seemed to think the extra support from the doubler plate being bolted to the 205 case was already much better at resisting torque from the front 205 output than the factory supports under the transfer case adaptor. If you have giant tires or a giant motor then I could see more of a need for it though.
 
Thanks Pete..

I still need to figure out how to mount the 205. I like your set up though.


A bit of bouncing around this weekend knocking out a lot of little things and some really big things.

True goal is to have this think fired up by my B-day, June 30th. My carb was supposedly being shipped on Friday. That leaves me with a bunch of little stuff that I need. Starter, plugs, wires, water pump, stat and housing, upper and lower hose's, Royal purple start up oil, belts.

Do you guys think that I need the Alt now for start up? I want to go with the Mean Green, but it's a little spendy now, with all of the other stuff.

Some pics of this weekend.

Finally beat the drivers side header. I did the same thing that AJ did and it worked out nice. Once I take it all apart, I'll fine tune that 1/2" shim. I massaged the frame a little too..

AAA742003.jpg


AAA742002.jpg


Took out the drivers slider for final weld and the doubler mount for partial weld. On the doubler, once I get the outer stuff welded, I can mount the centers with some stock I picked up last week. I think that I'll be able to use the small bushings I got from ORD on Sat. too.

AAA742004.jpg


AAA742007.jpg


Fixed one of the tubes that has been bugging me since I hung the step on the slider. A little sawzaw relief cut and she was able to move.

AAA742014.jpg


Finish weld and blasted the inner frame things.

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The neighbors must love me..:rolleyes:

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Bent up one of the new bars that come off the top of the A to the center over the driver. The old ones had too much of a bend and the top was hitting them. Still need to do the pass side.

AAA742015.jpg


Mocked up the drivers side tube. Some how I didn't get the same CLR bend on this new piece. We'll see how it works out.

AAA742019.jpg


And some tube welding for the first time. It's not super pretty, but I'm getting better. I ran out of gas last night, so that was as far as I could get. Today, it's going to be a bigger bottle exchange at the welding shop. :D

AAA742011.jpg


AAA742012.jpg


That's it...
 
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