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A Picture to give Timmay a Heart Attack

Can I have the one on the bottom?

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/forums/images/graemlins/yikes.gif Even more madness! Make it stop!
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Maybe se should start thinking about one of these as a tow rig???? /forums/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
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I just love seeing everybody jump on the "Bash Tim" bandwagon when it come to the towing issue.....however while reading this post there are a lot of pretty stupid comments coming from people other than Tim.

In any case, I just can't see how towing a 25,000 lb. trailer with a regular 1-ton dually is a good idea. Besides the safety issues involved (braking, handling, parts failure) there is also the durability aspect. For as often as they would have to replace a 3500 serious truck for this type of towing, why not just spend the money and step up to a bigger truck?

The concerns of excessive warranty claims are definitely NOT the issue when it comes the weight ratings of a vehicle, rather it all revolves around the safety concerns and the design parameters of these trucks.

Replacing a few transmissions under warranty is a drop in the bucket compared to possibility of a huge liability lawsuit if some idiot loses control and runs over a family in the minivan with his 30k trailer....."well, the sticker on the doorsill said I could it....".

For design, yes there is a safety factor built into the design of these trucks....but not enough that you can double the size of the trailer. Whether you *think* you can tow that much weight, the trucks were never designed, tested, or verified to give satisfactory performance and durability under these circumstances. It's not like manufacturers test the truck by pulling a 30k trailer and then say "it did okay with this trailer, but let's drop the rated weight in half just for the hell of it". With the battle between the big 3 lately, don't you think they would rate their trucks higher in an effort to outdo the competition if there was anyway to get by with it????

And finally, before everybody starts bashing me for being on Tim's side....I'm a senior project engineer for an automotive test facility that deals with manufacturers and the government directly. We perform durability, federal regulation and compliance, handling, brake, crash testing etc... on a daily basis so I do have a little insight into this topic.
 
Do you honestly think a 1 ton with 20000 lbs behind it brakes or handles any worse than a semi with 80000+ lbs behind it? You cant exactly whip a semi from one lane to another to avoid a van full of people stopped in the middle of a road, so why should you expect that from a 1 ton pulling above its GCWR? To me, it is much scarier seeing a guy in a KW hauling one of our off highway trucks or large engines than a Dodge 3500 towing 3 or 4 cars behind it.
 
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Do you honestly think a 1 ton with 20000 lbs behind it brakes or handles any worse than a semi with 80000+ lbs behind it?

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Uhhh, yes.........

A semi at 80,000 lbs. is not grossly overweight like the 1 ton pickup is towing 20,000 lbs. The semi is designed and tested to handle that weight and provide reliable service for hundreds of thousands of miles. If you want to put things in perspective then a 160,000 lb. semi rolling down the road does bother me..........
 
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a 160,000 lb. semi rolling down the road

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I would say its more akin to 120,000 lbs and there are loads like that all over the country, perfectly legal and perfectly safe.
 
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I just love seeing everybody jump on the "Bash Tim" bandwagon when it come to the towing issue

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If you think this is a "Bash Tim" bandwagon, you are sadly mistaken. I dont think anyone has formed an opinion contrary to his because they wanted to bash him, although the original poster I guess is "bashing" him.
 
You want to talk about crazy...when my father started Dutec in 1981, he did his own hauling for about 10 years. What did he haul with? Well let's see, he had a couple of Ford Cab and Chassis 6.9L diesels and one 454 chevy cab and chassis. I'll see if I can dig up any pics of this setup fully loaded out and scan them in. But we still have the trailer that he hauled with these trucks. It's a 45' drop deck fifth wheel with drw tandems from Kayln. About this trailer:

http://www.kalynsiebert.com/M2100.html

...except without the spread axles.

And he topped out at 60K to 70K GWCR at the scales. Paid his fine and went on. Now he wasn't hauling in the mountains, and he'd pull down to about 20mph on some hills, but he got the job done and didn't get in any wrecks. That kinda thing used to be very commonplace here in the south, but these days DOT is cracking down hard. I just wanted to tell you that it is possible and it happens all the time. And you think 4 cars or an RV is a huge load just cause it's big. Try really looking sometime. The heavy haulers are the hotshots that have manufactured products of metal and such....

Oh yeah, and a few threads for entertainment value only...

the overloaded club:
http://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=fa1a39f3c3c287c847b570927de3410c&threadid=27062

Pics:

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=fa1a39f3c3c287c847b570927de3410c&threadid=18334

funny:

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=fa1a39f3c3c287c847b570927de3410c&threadid=18055
 
You want to talk about legal but extemely haevy loads just ask Chaz88. His family business is heavy haul low bed trailers. I used to build the same thing, and we regularly built trailers rated for 120 tons, 150 tons etc. The biggest I built was a 250 tonner, but that was for a mine so it doesn't really count. A 150 ton trailer can have as many as 128 wheels under it...but it is still getting pulled with a fairly regular Semi.

So that would be 300,000 lbs behind a 20,000 lb semi...

Yes they need special permits, but it's legal and safe.

Rene
 
What's this crap about safety? The heavy haulers must be safe. How do I know? Tim says "As to them being in Colorado, I see them on the highway every time I travel on it.....rigs like that are everywhere. That doesn't make it right." I agree, they are everywhere. But you know what? I have been driving a semi for about 7 years now, and I see a wreck about every day or two, and NEVER have I seen a heavy haulin' hot shot involved. Why never? Maybe because the equipment and the people who operate them are safe? I have seen many trucks and some cars hauling improperly loaded trailers (usually car loaded on trailer backwards) that were not overweight wiped out, usually in one vehicle accidents. Besides, if they were illegal, do you honestly think that the DOT would pass up such a great opportunity to generate easy revenue as these guys pass through the scale house. It seems to me that if these vehicles were so unsafe, that I would see them crashed everywhere (instead of never) and they would be outlawed.
 
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I just love seeing everybody jump on the "Bash Tim" bandwagon when it come to the towing issue

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If you think this is a "Bash Tim" bandwagon, you are sadly mistaken. I dont think anyone has formed an opinion contrary to his because they wanted to bash him, although the original poster I guess is "bashing" him.


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Oh really....just as you mentioned, this thread wouldn't even be here if that wasn't the case. I agree that Tim can get a little carried away with his views on certain subjects, but if certain other people had posted the same opinions as he did the number and aggressiveness of the replies would not have been nearly as high.

The funny thing is that all of the people saying that this type of towing is "safe" don't have any true statistics or proof.........the only thing I keep hearing is "I've never happened to see one wrecked along the side of the road", or "uncle Joe did it and he never wrecked". I don't doubt that the number of wrecks these vehicles are involved in are really low and that the driver's are typically higher skilled and more careful......but the main reason the number of accidents is low is probably due to the very small percentage of vehicles on the road they represent.

I also find it ironic that when somebody asks about vehicles modifications for their trail rig the answers are always centered around building in overkill (1-ton axles, doublers, etc....) but then they turn around and say it's perfectly fine to haul a 25k trailer behind a pickup rated to tow 12k.

Using the philosphy seen on this thread so far, I'm going to start recommending to people that it's just fine to 'wheel an 1/2 ton IFS Chevy truck with 35's and a locked 10-bolt rear because "I went on a trailride twice with one and it didn't break"...... /forums/images/graemlins/yikes.gif
 
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Using the philosphy seen on this thread so far, I'm going to start recommending to people that it's just fine to 'wheel an 1/2 ton IFS Chevy truck with 35's and a locked 10-bolt rear because "I went on a trailride twice with one and it didn't break"...... /forums/images/graemlins/yikes.gif

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It is fine to wheel with 1/2 ton IFS. I wheeled for years in a Toyota pickup with IFS with 35's and 350, sm465, np205 drivetrain with 5.29 gears in the axles. Took a long to break anything in the drive train. Finally all it broke was a diff mount in the front end, that's it. Shortly after that, I got a killer deal on the jeep I run now.

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How many years have you been driving OTR, hot shot etc? Just curious... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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the answers are always centered around building in overkill (1-ton axles, doublers, etc....)

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Quite the contrary. On a full-size, 1-ton parts are necessary if you want to wheel. Not overkill. Just check out the weight thread in the CoG to see how everyone is trying to be as light as possible.
 
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Are you serious?

Look at the frame, axles, and the 19.5" wheels and tires that truck has. That is why it has a higher load capacity, not because it has more axles or whatever you may think.

A pickup on 16" tires and wheels cannot be compared to something like you've got pictured above with HUGE axles and wheel bearings, springs or air ride, an 8" tall heat treated frame, etc, and you'd be a fool to even think of comparing such a truck to a pickup.

There is no question that a pickup is capable of pulling FAR heavier loads than it is rated for, but that doesn't mean it is safe, or right.

Manufacturers test to see that their vehicle can safely tow their rated load under even the worst operating conditions. That is why the limit on paper is much lower than the point at which it will no longer pull anything else. There has to be a safety factor in there....but I see no point in pushing it to the limit either way.

Yeah, I know nothing about towing at all....that's why I always check my rig, I have the proper hitch, tires, trailer with brakes, tiedowns, etc. Maybe I'm paranoid, but I just look at it as doing the job the right way.

As to the above vehicles being DOT legal, great, but I'd love to be the lawyer on the plaintiff's side when you get involved in an accident and although you're plated for 30k lbs your vehicle's GCWR is 17000-20000. I'd love to see a judge make a field day out of someone that would overload a truck by 30-40% and insist that it is safe because it has a certain license plate or the driver has a Class A license. You'd be a fool to think that makes such action safe in my opinion.

You guys might think I go overboard, but I wish more people on the road would pay attention to ratings. One day, it will all come back to bite us when the lawmakers realize what people are doing. If nothing else it'll be another potential for income for the government, and they'll write people HUGE tickets just because they can.

IMO, a truck should not be overloaded under any circumstances, and any arguement to the contrary is foolish.

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First I agree with you in principal, but I don't agree that 2 big axles are better than multiple smaller axles, it might be cheaper on rubber use that is why some companies do that, but Physics, which is my specialty dictates that a load distributed on smaller axles could be as good or even better depending on the size.
Go to any trailer manufacturer to get a 10k trailer, they will offer you 2 x 5200 axles or 3 x 3500 axles, why because they are the same.

As for the rating, it's all about the equipment, talk to some RV manufacturers and see how they raise the payload and retag their chassis when they add bigger brakes, air springs or more leaves, that can make it better, and with the brakes on the trailer, it can be a safe combination.
Now granted, that's not what most people do, since like someone said, they see a dually with a bed they assume it's a regular 1 ton, so they go and get a 1ton and do the same.

That said, you can't arbitrarily say this is not safe before checking excatly what is under the skin.
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Can we all just give this thread a big /forums/images/graemlins/doah.gif and get over it? /forums/images/graemlins/screwy.gif
 
Do me a favor and check what the weight rating is on a 19.5" all steel truck type tire and compare that to your average load range E 245/75R16 or 235/85R16E and get back to me.

I am SURE that there is a HUGE difference in the rating of tires alone on those two trucks.

As to what is safe, it's your call. I think that there are certainly some pretty scary combos out there though.

As to whether I go overboard or not, oh well. I'd rather be safe than sorry, while some would rather risk it. That is simply a matter of opinion and judgement, and any adult will make decisions like this on a daily basis.

Everyone want to keep comparing it to an OTR truck, but the reality is that an OTR truck is far more capable of being overloaded and still being able to control the load than any pickup.
 
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Do me a favor and check what the weight rating is on a 19.5" all steel truck type tire and compare that to your average load range E 245/75R16 or 235/85R16E and get back to me.

I am SURE that there is a HUGE difference in the rating of tires alone on those two trucks.

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And you don't think the huge weight difference between the two trucks is a part of that? When you load a 5th wheel on a 1 ton truck, the only weight on the truck is the pin weight on the rear. As long as your pin weight and weight of the rear of the vehicle are not over the tire rating then it's fine. Just because your pulling 20k pounds doesn't mean all 20k of those pounds are on the trucks tires, they are on the trailers tires mostly.
 
My empty 33' 5er has 1800 lbs of pin weight. Can you even imagine the pin weight of one of those hotshotters with a truck above the front of it?

Also, have you considered the GVWR? If your single wheel 1 ton realy weighs 9,000 lbs, you have 200 lbs of payload capacity. Not a whole lot of safety factor if you put 2,000 lbs of tongue weight back there. That puts you over your GVWR by a pretty significant number, and that is not even factoring the trailer weight.
 
Yeah and my trailer weighs 4300 pounds.

But yet I still shoot down the freeways with no problems and stop as easy as pie, with the brake controller on setting 3 of 10. Oh and yes I have had people cut me off and with the trailer brakes it stops great, no problems at all, didn't even smash through the mini-van of illegal aliens /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Curious, whats the GCWR and GVWR on your 87 R30?
 
GVWR on it is the same as yours, 9,200. It weighs 4900 lbs full of fuel.

GCWR, 13,500. It has a 350, TH 400, and 4.10s.

My 8000 lb trailer on a weight distributing hitch and loaded correctly does not overload my 1 ton truck.

*edited as I actually looked up the GCWR*
 
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