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A Picture to give Timmay a Heart Attack

Ok so lets add some stuff up:

Tow Rig: 4900
Trailer: 2500
Trail Rig: 6000
YOU: 150 (guesstimate)
Not counting spare parts, tools, clothes, etc that you take on a trip...

That puts you at 13,550 pounds, dude your 50 pounds over your GCWR, YOUR GONNA DIE AND KILL MY GRANDMA IN HER SATURN AT THE SAME TIME!!!!
 
I love this, and just have to add to this post.

First, like many other have stated, do you really think that DOT would allow these "Dangerous Vehicles" on the road? How about the insurance companies, do you really think they would insure these trucks if they were not safe?

WTF, the DOT has all but clamped down on just about everything that runs over the road, do you really think they would allow unsafe rigs on the roads???

I know, I know, I'm an old guy and don't know anything about anything, but I know one thing, DOT and our insurance companies are not going to allow anything over the roads that are unsafe and or dangerous. This post is a great way to have your blood pressure raised.

Some here think that it's not safe, GET REAL!!! Stay home, and do some quality web towing and web wheeling, and that way you can be safe, be careful, you don't want to get a blister on the keyboard, because it's not the right height!...

If you don't like how unsafe it is, then you better start talking with you state political leader, and start a save the road campaign, and see what it's going to take to save the roads from the "Big Bad Overloaded Trucks and Trailers".

Oh and by the way, please dont' get to close to me or my trailer and tow rig, with my family in it, it's waaay to dangerous, I don't want to hurt anyone or put you in harms way....

GIVE ME A BREAK, it just never ends does it....
 
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That puts you at 13,550 pounds, dude your 50 pounds over your GCWR, YOUR GONNA DIE AND KILL MY GRANDMA IN HER SATURN AT THE SAME TIME!!!!

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Ok.

If your fuzzy math is correct all I've got to do is change my gears to 4.56 and I'm good to go then, because that brings me to 15,000.

I know for fact I'm within rear GAWR and GVWR so I don't have to worry about those two numbers, or the rating of the two tires on the back of my truck.

That's of course supposing my trail rig is 6,000 and my trailer is 2,500.

And the trailer is only plated for 8000# so if that is the case, I'm both overloaded and illegal.

Maybe I'll actually weigh it sometime.
 
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If you don't like how unsafe it is, then you better start talking with you state political leader, and start a save the road campaign, and see what it's going to take to save the roads from the "Big Bad Overloaded Trucks and Trailers".

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If you don't like how unsafe it is, then you better start talking with you state political leader, and start a save the road campaign, and see what it's going to take to save the roads from the "Big Bad Overloaded Trucks and Trailers".

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All kidding aside, that is the last thing I'd ever want to see. I'm all about less laws and revoking laws, not creating more.


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That puts you at 13,550 pounds, dude your 50 pounds over your GCWR, YOUR GONNA DIE AND KILL MY GRANDMA IN HER SATURN AT THE SAME TIME!!!!

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Ok.

If your fuzzy math is correct all I've got to do is change my gears to 4.56 and I'm good to go then, because that brings me to 15,000.

I know for fact I'm within rear GAWR and GVWR so I don't have to worry about those two numbers, or the rating of the two tires on the back of my truck.

That's of course supposing my trail rig is 6,000 and my trailer is 2,500.

And the trailer is only plated for 8000# so if that is the case, I'm both overloaded and illegal.

Maybe I'll actually weigh it sometime.

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Thats interesting that to get to 15k GCW, all you have to do is change something that has nothing to do with actual weight carrying parts, i.e. springs or tires. The only thing deeper gears will get you is a better start off the line with more weight. Obviously 4.56 would make a better start up then, lets say, 3.08. However, if you did have 3.08 gears, the wear and tear would just get transfered to cluch/transmission components. So, you are towing overweight as is, but in reality the suspension components of your truck could take 15k GCW, the limiting factor is the gearing. That seems a little "fuzzy" right there. Better change those gears to get within the safe limits of the entire truck if you plan to haul anything over the rated GCW of your pickup as-is.
 
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That puts you at 13,550 pounds, dude your 50 pounds over your GCWR, YOUR GONNA DIE AND KILL MY GRANDMA IN HER SATURN AT THE SAME TIME!!!!

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Ok.

If your fuzzy math is correct all I've got to do is change my gears to 4.56 and I'm good to go then, because that brings me to 15,000.

I know for fact I'm within rear GAWR and GVWR so I don't have to worry about those two numbers, or the rating of the two tires on the back of my truck.

That's of course supposing my trail rig is 6,000 and my trailer is 2,500.

And the trailer is only plated for 8000# so if that is the case, I'm both overloaded and illegal.

Maybe I'll actually weigh it sometime.

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Thats interesting that to get to 15k GCW, all you have to do is change something that has nothing to do with actual weight carrying parts, i.e. springs or tires. The only thing deeper gears will get you is a better start off the line with more weight. Obviously 4.56 would make a better start up then, lets say, 3.08. However, if you did have 3.08 gears, the wear and tear would just get transfered to cluch/transmission components. So, you are towing overweight as is, but in reality the suspension components of your truck could take 15k GCW, the limiting factor is the gearing. That seems a little "fuzzy" right there. Better change those gears to get within the safe limits of the entire truck if you plan to haul anything over the rated GCW of your pickup as-is.

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I'm gonna' run a 6.72 rockwell, then I can haul 20,000 lbs!
 
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Thats interesting that to get to 15k GCW, all you have to do is change something that has nothing to do with actual weight carrying parts, i.e. springs or tires. The only thing deeper gears will get you is a better start off the line with more weight. Obviously 4.56 would make a better start up then, lets say, 3.08. However, if you did have 3.08 gears, the wear and tear would just get transfered to cluch/transmission components. So, you are towing overweight as is, but in reality the suspension components of your truck could take 15k GCW, the limiting factor is the gearing. That seems a little "fuzzy" right there. Better change those gears to get within the safe limits of the entire truck if you plan to haul anything over the rated GCW of your pickup as-is.

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I somewhat agree with you.

Changing the engine to a 454 would net no change in the amount of weight the frame, drivetrain, etc., could handle but would get me a 19,000 lb GCWR I do believe. At that weight I probably still would feel comfortable but my rig would sure be gutless (hell it is already).

That is why, 4.56s or not, I'm not nervous about my towing combo at all. In this situation, I'm right at or just barely above my GCWR, but well within my other specs, so while I view it as pushing it, I don't think it is unsafe. 4.56s would net no improvement to speak of and absolutely destroy what is left of my 9 mpg loaded fuel mileage, so I view that as a worthless upgrade. If I was that worried, I'd just bolt some shorter tires on it and call it done.

I guess my main concern is the overloading of the chassis and tires. I agree with you guys in the sense that a tow vehicle that is slow is really not unsafe as long as it can maintain a reasonable speed. It is when the frame, rear axle, and tires are stressed beyond their design limitations that I get VERY nervous.

I will actually weigh my truck when I get time so I can verify if I am within limits, but I'm pretty sure I am.
 
My .02

re:**
I agree with you guys in the sense that a tow vehicle that is slow is really not unsafe as long as it can maintain a reasonable speed
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I tend to disagree with that statement. Before I explain why, I would just like to say I tow trailers on an almost daily basis (big and tiny for landscaping purposes), I have towed loads with trucks from S10's to tri-axle dumps, bumper pulls to goosenecks, and even moved tandems (granted I don't have a tandem certification but I only moved them within a lot where I worked in North Carolina). I have hauled demolition derby cars, tractors, broken down cars, broken trucks, and have helped others tow.

I am no expert and don't claim to be, but I do hope that I have some common sense. I believe there is a fine line between the "numbers" and reality. A rig may be rated to tow a load, but if the tow rig is equipped with dry rotted tires, poor brakes, worn out steering components, etc than the numbers don't mean jack.........and trust me, I see guys at the pulls do it all the time (even seen a few on the side of the road). I also know the "numbers" have a safety factor built into them, so going slightly overweight although legally illegal, isn't necessarilly a bad thing in and of itself.

I will say that towing a load that is too heavy for the "powertrain" (even if within the safe weight limit of the chassis) is asking for trouble. For a one time emergency tow, or short distance trip, etc there is some room for argument, but to tow a load consistently that causes the tow vehicle to not be able to get out of it's own way on flat ground is dangerous. I don't say you have to be able to manever as if you didn't have a load or that every tow rig needs a blown big block or big TD, but the tow rig should be able to manever, accelerate, and BRAKE on level ground without having to push it (powertrain matched to the load). As a driver, I realize that I am not the only person on the road and sometimes I have to deal with other A$$holes out there. There are times where you may have to pull out near a blind corner or busy intersection and need to be able to clear traffic. Granted other drivers are supposed to be in control of their vehicles but we all know that is not the case. Having a vehicle that can hardly maintain speed (or needs to be floored to maintain it), or takes 8 miles to get up to speed (not counting steep grades) is not safe regardless of whether it is rated for the weight or not as there is other traffic on the road to consider.
If the tow rig is not able to get up to speed in a reasonable amount of time it may be able to be remedied with a gearing/tire change or engine upgrades, but beyond that the other remedy is to lighten the load or find a different tow vehicle.

I know everyone wants to be able to tow their trail rig, trailer, gear, tools, supplies, etc. with their 3/4 ton rig with 35's, 3.08's, and 305 because they can't affort the proper tow rig and the rig they have will move the trailer and "may" be rated for the weight. I used to do it but after using the right tow rigs (thanks to my buddies and bro-in-law) I have come to realize what could have happened. Now I don't tow unless I have the proper equipment (either mine or borrowed). I used to think that just because it fit and I could pull it, it was OK, now I don't.....

The sad part is, like religion and politics, we can debate this issue till the cows come home, but that is one of the reasons there are numbers (guidelines) and since the numbers aren't foolproof, we have to use common sense too. Hopefully I haven't pissed too many of you off.
 
I kinda agree with ya on some points, but what about tractor-trailers? They take a llllooooonnnngggg time to get up to speed, and a loooonnnnggggg time to stop.... /forums/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
 
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True, but they take a long time to get to speed due to shifting a million times, and most will haul a load far faster than the posted limits (at least until the governor kicks in). They take longer to stop due to more mass. Try hooking a 1 ton pickup up to a fully loaded tractor-trailer, getting it up to speed, then have it stop. At least the tractor helps with some of the braking as the tires and brakes are sized appropriately.
Most (not all) semi's are sized and powered to pull the loads they do. Again, I'm not saying they need to have the performance of a sports car, but the ability to haul what they do with power to spare in emergencies (safety margin within reason).
 
If you take a look at some of the components of the drivtrain, suspension, and braking system of an 80,000 LB rated semi you will not see that the parts used are not really that much more large in comparison to the 1 ton stuff. The brake drum on a semi measure 16" in diameter and have a width of 7". True that size is larger than a 1 ton, but the semi has the leverage of a 42" tall tire acting upon the braking system rather than the short stock size 1 ton tires (think of the leverage gained by using a cheater pipe on your ratchet, same principle here). The bearings in the hubs are not really that much bigger than what I put in my 14 bolt FF when considering the weight difference that they are rated at. The driveshafts tube size isn't really impressive either, however they do have some monster size u-joints. An average size engine in today's trucks is around 460 to 500 horsepower with about 1650 ft. lb. of torque, axle ratios of 3.55 and 3.73 are common (again using a 42" tall tire) and most will have a 10 speed transmission. My tractor weighs just under 15,000 lbs, which means that my trailer and it's contents can weigh 65,000 lbs. Have you ever sen a kingpin under the front of a semi trailer? (Kingpin is the peice that hooks into the fith wheel) The kingpin is not much larger than a 2 5/16" ball. If a semi can haul 80,000 lbs, I can see a 1 ton easily hauling a lot more than it's rated limit. Maybe class A CDL and "professional driver" have something to do with it. Any moron can buy a one ton truck... liability of the automaker... etc...
 
2X

4X

those are light hearted "engineering rules" If you build something strong and rate it at half of what it will actually handle then half of the people with it will break it. If you build it at 4X rated than those who broke the first are only half way there on the second.

Those 1 ton trucks will probably not carry that load for 20+ years. They will most likely be responsibly retired after 5 years. Also do you really think somebody that tows for a living (not a hobby) just buys a truck off of the lot and trusts the OE "tow crappage" That is not how it works. Those trucks are outfitted with extra cooling, exauhst (sp) brakes, professional hitches (not u-hual special of the week junk) and one of the most important part: a kick azz, top of the line trailer.

What make towing unsafe is lack of knowledge. A lot of people over work (not over load) their set up resulting in tire failures, parts fatigue and worst of all loss of control. Then there are those who have no clue towards blind spots/braking on the larger vehicle around them.

Tim, the new ram 1500 has 4 wheel disk brakes that are too large to fit in anything smaller than a 17" wheel. Then wilwood offers a 4 piston caliper option for it. This trucks brakes are larger, lighter, and better designed than most other autos 10+ years ago. Oh... and a 1500 is just one of those little wimpy 1/2 tons/forums/images/graemlins/ignore.gif. Maybe your K30 tow rig is unsafe after all /forums/images/graemlins/deal.gif
 
Have you ever had to pick up a semi drum and a 1 ton drum...? I see what you are saying and you are correct about leverage. You have to consider the leverage and pressure of the "hydroboost" 1 ton hydrualic system vs. the leveraged pnumatic system of a semi trailer (look at the slack adjuster assembly, vacuum canister, and acuator lever). The reason the drums on the semi's are so thick is due to the pressures exerted on them. True they aren't "huge" compared to a 1 ton, but they are much thicker and stronger due to the added braking pressures and leverages exerted on them (same reason I said try stopping a fully loaded trailer with a 1 ton pickup even if you had a way to actuate the trailer brakes).

I do not disagree with you on the 5th wheel versus the 2 5/16" trailer ball (never did).

If you look in my profile you will see that I do truck pulls and we have had the sled which empty weighs 45,000 lbs up to 90,000 lbs with added weight in the transfer box. With the pan up and the box over the semi wheels, just about any truck in the "parking lot" can pull it, but I would not like to see it going down the highway. Again just because a rig can pull something doesn't mean it can stop it or manuever it properly.

Trust me, I am not trying to argue at all OR say that X pounds is safe and Y pounds are not, I just wanted to say there are many things to look at and consider before hauling down the highway. /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
 
I don't have much experience hauling trilers with a pick-up truck that have brakes, so I really don't know how well they do or don't stop. I do have a lot of experience driving semi trucks. I agree with you that the braking systems on the semis are strong, but thier weak link is the heat build-up. I used to drive a truck that didn't have a jake brake (engine brake, compression brake) and at the bottom of some mountains I had brake smoke everywhere. My brakes at that point are useless. You are right though that there is no answer right or wrong... and many variables need to be considered.

Back when I drove my friends truck we did our own maintenance, so yes I have picked up semi drums, but not because I wanted too... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif I think the drum weighs more than me.
 
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Are you serious?

Look at the frame, axles, and the 19.5" wheels and tires that truck has. That is why it has a higher load capacity, not because it has more axles or whatever you may think.

A pickup on 16" tires and wheels cannot be compared to something like you've got pictured above with HUGE axles and wheel bearings, springs or air ride, an 8" tall heat treated frame, etc, and you'd be a fool to even think of comparing such a truck to a pickup.


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Just to set a couple things straight, those are 22.5's not 19.5's, aluminum Alcoas not steel rims(I drove that rig for 2 years) While it looks like it has a rear suspension it is actually a hard mounted axle (the ride sucked to say the least) That frame is actually not as heavy as it appears (truck was built by Chevron for the Las Vegas show and then sold) I bent the heck out of the frame with an S-10 on the top, Amigo at the front of the deck, a Fifth Ave on the tail and a F450 (old body) diesel 4x4 Utility Box on the wheel lift. And the only air ride on that rig is on the tag axle which didn't work for squat compared to the ones on my mixer (rated at 100,000lbs) As to the front springs, two 3.5" wide leafs. That's it, hardly a heavy rig. It had a GCVWR of only 24,000lbs, I'm willing to bet most of those guys hauling cars have a higher GCVWR than I did.

I understand your point, I don't totally agree with you because I've hauled well over 120,000lbs legally and well within the specs of the equipment I used (231,400lb GCVWR). But I wasn't trying to bash you or start anything with my comments. And I would have felt a lot safer with multiple axles and more brakes than what my rig had.

It just seems to me that if the truck has been built properly (maintained properly as well), the trailer is of sufficient capacity, and the driver is properly trained then it really should be safe.
What I think a lot of folks fail to understand is that the rigs normally used to pull those trailers are not stock, those have been built specifically for this type of towing by either the manufacturer or a third party company. It isn't just a set of plates that allow them to haul that much weight. One of the companies I used to work for actually built these rigs for a supplier, I saw first hand what goes into building some of them.

As to 6.2Blazer asking for statistic, I can get statistics to prove anything. That doesn't make you guys wrong or anyone else wrong; there are multiple points of view to most any argument. I just don't put much stock in statistics much less to those supplied by the USDOT, or ones relating to the trucking industry since most tree hugging desk jockeys (the folks who typically come up with these stats) would sell their mothers to get big rigs off the road so they had more room to drive their eco friendly rice boxes.

The last thing I want to ask is, what do you consider overloaded?
Because (just to make a crude point) I can load my van up to the point that the rear springs are flattened and the tires are ready to blow out, but be no where near my GVWR.

Anyway good to know some people are out there trying to keep others aware of the possible problems of over loading rigs./forums/images/graemlins/waytogo.gif
 
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If you take a look at some of the components of the drivtrain, suspension, and braking system of an 80,000 LB rated semi you will not see that the parts used are not really that much more large in comparison to the 1 ton stuff.

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Are you joking??? I was just checking out a class 8 tractor out in our garage at work that was having brake work done and the drums and shoes are frickin' HUGE as compared to the stuff I took off my 14ff.

The really ironic thing about this whole thread is that there is another thread going on where a guy wants to use a 1/2 ton pickup with a beefed up suspension and 14ff rear axle to haul a K30 (maybe 8,000 lbs. total load when on a trailer) and everybody is advising him that it would be bad and to get a 2500HD or 3500 truck to do it. If you can safely haul 25,000 lbs. with a 3500 dually than I don't see what the problem is pulling a measly 8,000 lbs. with an 1/2 ton truck /forums/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
 
Wheelbase and rear suspension makes a huge difference as you should know.
 
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Are you joking??? I was just checking out a class 8 tractor out in our garage at work that was having brake work done and the drums and shoes are frickin' HUGE as compared to the stuff I took off my 14ff.

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They are huge, but compare them while you think of what they have to do, and factor in the leverage effect of a 42" tall tire. The 80,000 lb braking system stopping 80,000 lbs is comparable to a 1 ton braking system stopping 30,000 lbs given that it has a tri-axle trailer. In my opinion (which means nothing more than anyone else's /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif) the 1 ton stuff is proportioanal in size compared to the 80,000 lb stuff. No, I don't recommend hauling 80,000 lbs with your 14 bolt.

In the other post you referred to, I would say go for it, he is actually making a 3/4 ton out of it anyway. The one thing that concerns most though is that it is going to be lifted...
 
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