Aftermarket EFI

[beater_k20]

start by building a good longblock... that 350 is worn out. whats wrong with a factory TBI/TPI style setup? you're building a truck not a racecar, horsepower means squat. torque puts it into motion, horsepower just maintains the motion.

 

[84_Chevy_K10]

start by building a good longblock... that 350 is worn out. whats wrong with a factory TBI/TPI style setup? you're building a truck not a racecar, horsepower means squat. torque puts it into motion, horsepower just maintains the motion.

I don't know what you're talking about, the engine in my truck right now still has crosshatch on the cylinder walls.

Torque without horsepower is useless, horsepower without torque is impossible. To say that horsepower means squat is ignorant to say the least.

I'll do some more research on the Edelbrock system, it sounds more promising than it did before.

The Holley stuff is sounding like a potentially good idea too.

This is for Tim, just for the record, factory sensors make it cheaper to repair and buy parts for if something were to fail versus an aftermarket part that cost more and has to be ordered.

My junk rides on the trailer for a reason. If **** breaks it goes back onto the trailer, where the under-warranty factory-stock Diesel powered tow rig (with factory EFI) drags it's raggedy behind back to the yard.

 

[Z3PR]

How about this baby from Hilborn .

Here is the link to the web page for this setup: http://www.hilborninjection.com/product.asp?Id=361&CatId=10

Damn, I like that. What's it cost ??

 

[BlueBlazer]

Torque without horsepower is useless, horsepower without torque is impossible. To say that horsepower means squat is ignorant to say the least.

Saying this everytime someone talks about torque and HP does not make you sound any smarter. You know exactly what Jeremy meant, build it for low to mid range power and don't worry about making 400 hp and whatever rpm you were shooting for, especially on a tired 350.

 

[84_Chevy_K10]

Saying this everytime someone talks about torque and HP does not make you sound any smarter. You know exactly what Jeremy meant, build it for low to mid range power and don't worry about making 400 hp and whatever rpm you were shooting for, especially on a tired 350.

Don't tell me how to build my engines, I'm perfectly clear on what I want. My next engine is going to have a forged crank and be balanced. I can't leave the 5000 RPM rev limiter in there forever, it spoils all the fun.

Back on topic, aftermarket EFI for 400 HP.

 

[dirtwarrior17]

I like the holley tbi setup because its half the price and does what i need it to do. I spent 700 on the pump, manifold, and tbi all brand new out of jegs and am going to spend another 400 for prominator and labtop. I haven't had it on the road or anywhere else because of registration and insurance but it revs like a sprint car motor in my driveway and doesn't starve(not even close) at all. It reacts real quick and revs way up there with one stab of the throttle...I don't see the need for the mpfi system unless you want it and have the money or are looking to make over 400 hp.

 

[84_Chevy_K10]

Well I'm not shopping price. I've got two TBI setups. If I go TBI I'm hitched to the motor I have. I'd rather go MPFI and be done with it.

 

[dyeager535]

He said aftermarket. TBI isn't what he's looking for. Stock stuff isn't for everyone, and even I will admit, playing with PROM burning is not as easy as turning knobs or using software that spells out the changes you can make, and (apparently) compensates for the changes in other ECM parameters, instead of chip burning, where you make a change at A that affects B, which forces YOU to go in and change B. Which may affect C, and so on and so on.

Tim, have you looked at this?

I know nothing about it except a few people over on thirdgen.org run it and talk about it.

 

[84_Chevy_K10]

Interesting, but pricey. The Edelbrock stuff is $2200 or so and looking really good right now.

I'm going to weigh my options, power vs. price before I buy anything. If I have to settle for making 300 HP and I can use mostly stock parts, I still may.

 

[BlueBlazer]

You didn't state it was going to be a new engine and I was only clearing up what I thought Jeremy was saying. Lighten up a little.

 

[84_Chevy_K10]

It's not going on a new engine right away, thus why I asked for 400 HP "potential".

I just want to leave the doors open.

It'd be hard for me to tear down the engine that is in my truck, there really is nothing wrong with it.

 

[dyeager535]

As you well know, figure out your "hard parts" (engine CID, cam, heads) and then figure out what will support the power those pieces are capable of.

As an example, if you end up with a 250HP engine, $2200 for the edelbrock would be pretty wasteful IMO. BUT you'd still have to worry about chip burning for best power, economy, etc., with TBI.

If you start out with hard parts that will get you to your 400HP goal, if the Edelbrock as is will support 400HP, that $2200 may be well spent, and no more expensive in the end as modifying the heck out of some other system.
My TPI setup cost me $500, plus shipping. Then bought another runner because one was dented. (shipping on most of these items too) New ESC module and knock sensor. New TPS. New cap and rotor. Fuel pump. Sending unit. Probably 20+ trips to the wrecking yard and private owners for parts. ECM holder. Service/electrical manual for diagnosis/proper understanding of the system, $50. Time spent pulling wires out of harness I can't use/routing harness. PROM burning stuff. All the other components are still used. (IMO that means nothing, but you get the picture) If you want to add in the other stuff, running Vortec heads cost me another $300 for the specific intake, and that was an unusually good deal. I'm easily over $1000 in "hard" parts alone for the EFI swap, and I guarantee that the TIME I spent dealing with all of this (to include the trips to wrecking yard, gas, blood, etc) if figured out to even $10 an hour puts me over $2000.

 

[gotmud77]

I have been running the edelbrock kit for about a year know and it has worked great. Yes you have to use there chip but you can adjust from there. It is very responsive and the fuel economy is great. I went from using a tank a week to a tank every two weeks. So just in the fuel savings along it was well worth the cost of the kit. As for price i have seen them for $2099 at summit and thats about the cheapest i have seen. That was the four barrel kit. #3500 i think. The only problem that i have had is that the o2 sensor is very easy to burn up. As soon as you put it under water for any amount of time you will end up putting a new one in. Other then that its great and i would reccommend it to anyone thinking of upgrading.

 

[dirtwarrior17]

Dyeager535:

Last time i checked holley and accel were aftermarket parts... just becasue they are tbi doesn't mean its stock. If he ever changes the cam he will have to deal with the same problems he would with tbi. It doesn't take much to squeeze 400 hp out of a 670 cfm 2bbl holley tbi, holley projection 2" manifold, accel 45 psi pump, and a prominator. your looking at 1100 bucks if you buy all the stuff brand new and get a deal on a labtop. I'm not saying this is the right setup for tim but its not as hard or as expensive as you made it sound...


weren't you the one who convinced me that burning your own chips is the way to go?

 

[dyeager535]

Last time i checked holley and accel were aftermarket parts... just becasue they are tbi doesn't mean its stock.

Tim's not talking about just the TBI. He's talking about the whole system. That means wiring, sensors, ECM, etc. If I replace the throttle body on my TPI, it's still stock TPI, just a different TB.

If he ever changes the cam he will have to deal with the same problems he would with tbi.

I'm not understanding the edelbrock system totally, but thats ok. I see mention of burning a chip, but then I see "tuning", so I'm not sure how they do that. It sounds as if they get you started, then you finish tuning it. If the tuning procedure is simple and doesn't require actual chip burning, that saves time, effort, and money over a stock system.

weren't you the one who convinced me that burning your own chips is the way to go?

You and I are set on making stock stuff work. We are "paying" for our decision by dealing with chip burning and tuning. All the aftermarket stuff is going for is to replace the "complexity" of chip burning. If they can do that, and as Tim is pointing out (numerous times) he isn't talking about stock setups, something totally different isn't bad. It's not about talking somebody into something, it's just reality. Tim says "I'm not asking about stock systems". So why would I try to talk him into one? You say "I've got TBI and I want to make 400HP" so I try to help you discover what it will take to get there with the system you have. Two totally different situations and people.

If you want a stock EFI setup to work properly, you have to tune it, and in our case, that REQUIRES PROM burning.
If you don't want stock, you will pay more money, but the complexity level and time required, (ideally) is decreased.

Nothing wrong with either, as long as one isn't far superior to the other.

 

[dirtwarrior17]

From what i understand you tell them your cam profile and a couple other important pieces of your motor and they burn you a chip for your motor. But say you change the cam....you have to change the chip just like you would in our case. I don't know if its exactly the same but it sounds like it.

IIRC i was going to have a chip burnt at a shop on a dyno... now im buying a prominator and labtop... that is what i meant when i said you talked me into burning my own chips.

All the aftermarket stuff is going for is to replace the "complexity" of chip burning

does that mean make it easier?

the tbi swap is mainly for the higher hp capability in my case. don't know if thats what your meant or not.

 

[dyeager535]

I think we are taking Tim's thread off-topic.

I'm too lazy to look up the Edelbrock system. (as an example) BUT:

If Tim sticks with stock TBI, and modifies the engine, for top performance, PROM burning is a necessity. No argument there from anyone. If Tim NEVER changes the engine or any components for the rest of the engines life after burning a PROM, PROM burning equipment would be "pointless" *IF* he could get a PROM burned right, for less money than the PROM burning equipment.

Now say he wants to make 400HP. His stock TBI system is going to require the aftermarket TB for sure, and thats not all, we know this. Again, if he goes with Edelbrock as a for instance, and out of the box, it will support 400HP, he's already ahead of a stock TBI system, if not factoring cost. He gets his chip burned (or whatever they do) spends a couple hours fine tuning, and he's done. Less time than stock, hasn't had to put together a list of parts, hasn't had to learn PROM burning, etc. So there is a definite convenience factor there.

However, the catch to all that (IMO) would be if indeed a head, cam, intake, exhaust, or whatever change is in the future and it requires a new chip from Edelbrock. The convenience is still there, but if another chip is $300 or so, thats a very large factor if at some point cost IS something you are thinking about, *especially* if you expect the motor to be torn down often, lots of component swaps, etc.

In my case for the stock EFI, I already have a laptop, and I have a friend I am borrowing the PROM burning equipment from. The cost to do this for me is very low ($55 for the adapter, ZIF and couple of chips) but there will definitely be a LARGE amount of *time* spent tuning.

This post is about aftermarket EFI. All the aftermarket stuff is a copy/derivative of the foundation laid down by the major car manufacturers, and from what I've seen, none of it is far inferior to stock anymore. The ONLY penalty to the aftermarket is really the cost, and the point I'm trying to make is that if time is worth anything to you, paying more for aftermarket EFI (as Tim is asking about) may in the long run cost you more money, but save you a bunch of time and hassle.

The know you more about EFI in general is going to help whether you are looking at stock stuff or aftermarket, so it's not hurting anything to learn about all the systems that are out there.

Yes, aftermarket is trying to make things easier. I doubt a push mower company is any competition for Toro, because it's just easier to use a gas powered self-propelled mower. If you are told using the stock system is going to require chip burning, and that is going to take a fair amount of time, learning, and some specialized equipment, OR you can buy something that will get you close, and you spend a couple of hours doing final tune, which are you going to do if money is no object?

Me, I am INTERESTED in seeing what I can accomplish by modifying what GM started me with. Not everyone is interested in expending that effort, and there is no way (or reason) to try and force anyone into it. Tim has plenty of information available on stock systems, and what he would need to do to make a stock system with 400HP, and thats not what this thread is about.

 

[dirtwarrior17]

Dyeager535:

Last time i checked holley and accel were aftermarket parts... just becasue they are tbi doesn't mean its stock. If he ever changes the cam he will have to deal with the same problems he would with tbi. It doesn't take much to squeeze 400 hp out of a 670 cfm 2bbl holley tbi, holley projection 2" manifold, accel 45 psi pump, and a prominator. your looking at 1100 bucks if you buy all the stuff brand new and get a deal on a labtop. I'm not saying this is the right setup for tim but its not as hard or as expensive as you made it sound...


weren't you the one who convinced me that burning your own chips is the way to go?

Tim said he was considering it so nobody is forcing anybody to get anything, and its still on topic. 1000$ is a lot of money that can be put elsewhere in his truck. to me that well worth my *time*

I am just trying to show him all his options and what they would cost because i have this system, know how it works, and how much it costs. He doesn't have to spend 2200 to support 400 hp and then be at the mercy of edelbrock for another 300 everytime a change is made. I don't know how that system works or if you really have to buy a chip from them again but if you have to buy a 300 dollar chip everytime you upgrade/downgrade its gettin pretty expensive.

I know one of the edelbrock systems uses the stock PROM and if that is the one we're talking about, he will end up burning his own chips anyway or paying 300 for every new mod.

The ONLY thing stock about the setup i have and described above is the computer and harness. seeing as i spent 700 on a *stock* tbi system, the mpfi is a *stock* system too because it uses the computer and harness from the original EFI. ONLY difference is its MPFI.

Tim: If you buy the holley stuff and put it on your tired 350 before you upgrade to a higher hp motor you can just put the tbi and manifold on and leave the pump stock until you need to uprgrade... doesn't really save you just means you won't have to PROM burn for a while.

Holley 670 cfm TBI, Holley projection 2" EFI manifold, Accel high pressure (45psi) fuel pump, labtop, prominator: $1100 and you have to spend some time burning. You won't be sacrificing power with this system unless you are up over 400 HP

edelbrock MPFI system: 2200 and you get MPFI but will have to mess with chips when changes are made.

It's up to him... I've said what i wanted to say.

 

[79Stomper]

Interesting, but pricey. The Edelbrock stuff is $2200 or so and looking really good right now.

I'm going to weigh my options, power vs. price before I buy anything. If I have to settle for making 300 HP and I can use mostly stock parts, I still may.

I am running the Edelbrock 3503. I started to go with the 3500 but figured that would be overkill on my motor and would have to tune it WAAAYYYYY down. My motor is pretty much stock except for cam and timing gear/chain set. Hey if your still planning on coming to Tellico next month, and not in a hurry to buy soon, take a look at my truck while your down. Hey I might even let you take it for a spin around the camp................

 

[dyeager535]

Tim said he was considering it so nobody is forcing anybody to get anything, and its still on topic. 1000$ is a lot of money that can be put elsewhere in his truck. to me that well worth my *time*

Tim said:

Considering future potential for motor upgrades, I'm thinking aftermarket EFI may be a better choice.

I'd like:

400 HP power potential

Easy tuning with their device or a laptop computer

Port fuel injection

Preferably with NO stock components what so ever.

I'll let him answer your topics, it's his thread, I'm not going to sit here and try to defend his decision to DISCUSS other options.