why on earth do you need 4 batteries? Also I would agree with the masses that putting the batteries open to the passenger compartment is a bad idea. Also if any of the water/acid spills you'll be fighting progressive rust.
CK5
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batteries - relocating to the rear and doubling up
- Thread starter mudbuggy
- Start date
mudbuggy
1/2 ton status
I want to!
I can pull just over a 100 amp load with everything on. I only have a 105 amp alternator. I ahve had to repair the factory battery mount four times now and have used it very little at the cabin. The other battery tray I made from factory specs and installed it on the driver's side. I have installed 2 efans by relays, the first of switch plates by relay, and the rear work lights by relay. These 5 relays are mounted on the battery tray that I built under the hood and I am running out of room for electrical relay mounting too. If I remove the batteries from the front to the rear then I have room under the hood for the relays and switching equipment and housings for all this type of equipment. Why 4 batteries, well, the group 78 batteries are better utilized for the starting system, i.e. they have a better cca rating and less of a rc rating. The group 31 are the exact opposite, they are better rc rating and less cca rating, so following that ideaology I am using the group 78s for the starting system headlights, control systems, etc, etc, and the group 31 for aux systems, radio, amps, e fams, ac blower motors, (the front blower motor pulls 18 amps on high, the rear ac pulls 22 amps on high and yes both of these motors are new and tested to oem standards) Right there I have a 40 amp draw. Not including the smaller e fan (17 amps) and the larger e fan (18 amps). That's 35 amps. Together that's 75 amps, not including the computer to run 3.5 amps, the radio 1.7 amps, amps 2.0 amps. Now think about rolling down a window, or even worse rolling down 4 windows at once, What do you think happens at cruise speed, well not much but at idle in stop and go traffic you have a noticable difference.
I don't like to run more then a 10% of a batteries capacity, I have the room in this truck to do it how I would like to, so I am. Granted there are still alot of questions floating through my head, but if I try and add all the equipment that I want to, and I stay with only the two batteries then I should just put in a standing order with my interstate dealer of delievering a new battery every 6 months to me as long as I have this truck in this use.
I have changed my initial thoughts of a hydraulic winch, I am now thinking of an electric winch (12,5k on the front, 8k on the rear) that as well has made me think that I need to really take a closer look at my electrical demands. I really don't want to turn the ac off just to pull someone out of a ditch! lol
I have spent the past few months talking with my wife about purchasing a new 'cabin capable' truck. I have spent a few afternoons at some custom truck manufacturers talking specs, for the money I would spend the capabilitieswould not be what they say it would do. Then on top of having to return it for warranty issues. It just doesn't make sense to me to spend A LOT of money on a vehicle that I would use 'occasionally', that's just a waste of resources. Plus, I like the older trucks, they aren't made to this style of workmanship now, and likely will never be again.
I will have, with the group 78 batteries, 1600 cca at 0 degrees, 2000 ca at 32 degrees. 170 minute reserve capacity with 25 amp load. On the group 31 batteries, I will have 1460 cca at 0 degrees, 1800 ca at 32 degrees, 380 minute reserve capacity with a 25 amp load. That's not bad figuring that I won't have a generator making noise and if I leave a light on all night then I can come out in the morning and hit the emergenacy self jump start switch and be off and running. Plus I'm not spending 60g on a new truck, that's a lot more money I can spend on a motor!!!
Granted there are still a lot of things that need to be worked through and figured out.
All input is welcome!!!
I can pull just over a 100 amp load with everything on. I only have a 105 amp alternator. I ahve had to repair the factory battery mount four times now and have used it very little at the cabin. The other battery tray I made from factory specs and installed it on the driver's side. I have installed 2 efans by relays, the first of switch plates by relay, and the rear work lights by relay. These 5 relays are mounted on the battery tray that I built under the hood and I am running out of room for electrical relay mounting too. If I remove the batteries from the front to the rear then I have room under the hood for the relays and switching equipment and housings for all this type of equipment. Why 4 batteries, well, the group 78 batteries are better utilized for the starting system, i.e. they have a better cca rating and less of a rc rating. The group 31 are the exact opposite, they are better rc rating and less cca rating, so following that ideaology I am using the group 78s for the starting system headlights, control systems, etc, etc, and the group 31 for aux systems, radio, amps, e fams, ac blower motors, (the front blower motor pulls 18 amps on high, the rear ac pulls 22 amps on high and yes both of these motors are new and tested to oem standards) Right there I have a 40 amp draw. Not including the smaller e fan (17 amps) and the larger e fan (18 amps). That's 35 amps. Together that's 75 amps, not including the computer to run 3.5 amps, the radio 1.7 amps, amps 2.0 amps. Now think about rolling down a window, or even worse rolling down 4 windows at once, What do you think happens at cruise speed, well not much but at idle in stop and go traffic you have a noticable difference.
I don't like to run more then a 10% of a batteries capacity, I have the room in this truck to do it how I would like to, so I am. Granted there are still alot of questions floating through my head, but if I try and add all the equipment that I want to, and I stay with only the two batteries then I should just put in a standing order with my interstate dealer of delievering a new battery every 6 months to me as long as I have this truck in this use.
I have changed my initial thoughts of a hydraulic winch, I am now thinking of an electric winch (12,5k on the front, 8k on the rear) that as well has made me think that I need to really take a closer look at my electrical demands. I really don't want to turn the ac off just to pull someone out of a ditch! lol
I have spent the past few months talking with my wife about purchasing a new 'cabin capable' truck. I have spent a few afternoons at some custom truck manufacturers talking specs, for the money I would spend the capabilitieswould not be what they say it would do. Then on top of having to return it for warranty issues. It just doesn't make sense to me to spend A LOT of money on a vehicle that I would use 'occasionally', that's just a waste of resources. Plus, I like the older trucks, they aren't made to this style of workmanship now, and likely will never be again.
I will have, with the group 78 batteries, 1600 cca at 0 degrees, 2000 ca at 32 degrees. 170 minute reserve capacity with 25 amp load. On the group 31 batteries, I will have 1460 cca at 0 degrees, 1800 ca at 32 degrees, 380 minute reserve capacity with a 25 amp load. That's not bad figuring that I won't have a generator making noise and if I leave a light on all night then I can come out in the morning and hit the emergenacy self jump start switch and be off and running. Plus I'm not spending 60g on a new truck, that's a lot more money I can spend on a motor!!!
Granted there are still a lot of things that need to be worked through and figured out.
All input is welcome!!!
The simple solution is to install an alternator with a higher amp rating and then change out the main feed wire to the alternator to accomodate the higher amp rating.
DEMON44
Low-Tech Redneck
Yea. Upgrade the alt for sure. I've got a 180 amp upgrade waiting to go on my cummins.
Even my Ford stock runs at 115 amp load. For ecms and injectors. If you want to add gadjets and winches kick that 105 to the curb. And step up the program.
Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk
Even my Ford stock runs at 115 amp load. For ecms and injectors. If you want to add gadjets and winches kick that 105 to the curb. And step up the program.
Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk
mudbuggy
1/2 ton status
For sure got a 150 amp cs 144 (pontiac transport or buick roadmaster oem). The alternator is on hold until I figure out what I am to do for the dash indicator, how or what I am doing, plus the plug for the cs-144 is different then the cs-130. I am making a stop at the pull a part lot on the way home tomorrow from my shop. I am looking at a kit that will bring the alternator to 250 amps charging at idle, I think it's around 325 or so at 2000 rpm. Just haven't decided on which kit, there is one local, they have all of the parts in stock, but it is more money then the online. Guess worst case I can by two kits and go from there!!!
I'm trying to avoid purchasing something then using it for a week or two then it sitting in the garage for a few years. makes it a lot easier with the wife!
My biggest issue now is getting the charge to the batteries and the alternator reading what the isolator is telling it. It is a Noco 140 amp isolator. I will probably have to go bigger when I do the upgrade to the cs-144. It is what it is.
I'm trying to avoid purchasing something then using it for a week or two then it sitting in the garage for a few years. makes it a lot easier with the wife!
My biggest issue now is getting the charge to the batteries and the alternator reading what the isolator is telling it. It is a Noco 140 amp isolator. I will probably have to go bigger when I do the upgrade to the cs-144. It is what it is.
mudbuggy
1/2 ton status
Found it!
Thought that I lost the write up that I got with the new alternator (105 amp). It details how to install an idicator light for when the alternator is (or not) working. Now to find the rest of the parts for the light. Just checked out in the garage, nothing there, might be at my shop, if not I'll pick up a new one tommorrow. Need to swing by radio shack and get the right resistor, hopefully I'll have an indicator light by this friday, then it's time to modify the plug and then install the 150 amp alternator.
Thought that I lost the write up that I got with the new alternator (105 amp). It details how to install an idicator light for when the alternator is (or not) working. Now to find the rest of the parts for the light. Just checked out in the garage, nothing there, might be at my shop, if not I'll pick up a new one tommorrow. Need to swing by radio shack and get the right resistor, hopefully I'll have an indicator light by this friday, then it's time to modify the plug and then install the 150 amp alternator.
super k
1/2 ton status
I'm totally lost here. Is this because of a winch or what? I don't follow what the problem is from running the batteries where the General (and all other makers) put them or why all the extra battery is needed on a healthy electrical system. At least I've never come across any reason in all my experience to want to move them. Keeping it simple is what works best for me when it comes to electrical systems. I guess I'm missing something here?
mudbuggy
1/2 ton status
Why?
Why move the batteries?
1. I am tired of repairing the oem battery brackets. Just after getting the truck I installed a battery tray on the driver’s side just like oem, except it was of my design. I have removed and repaired the factory oem battery tray at least 6 times since I have owned the truck and I haven’t really had any ‘hard core off road time.
2. I need more room under the hood for relay wiring of equipment for the operation of the truck and the subsystems that I am planning to install. i.e. relay for headlights, relay for high beam, etc, etc. I have 5 relays under the hood now and I am out of room.
3. The way the factory mounts the batteries is rather questionable. The batteries are mounted up front for weight distribution rather anything else. Even modern vehicles are now produced with batteries in the truck under the spare tire. The amount of juice used by the starter is virtually the same compared from then to now, the load of the batteries have increased with the introduction of the electric fans, modern Wi-Fi in vehicles, air conditioning systems, etc, etc. The average alternator coming out of the factory as of 2005 is 140 amps, compared to 1970 which was 65 amps.
4. The batteries will be in a cooler environment. Fact is the under hood temperatures can reach upwards of 200 degrees at times. Having a battery in those conditions can cause more damage to a battery then using it in prolonged cold environments.
5. I want to attempt to do this. I have had three vehicles that I have relocated the batteries to another area of the vehicle. I have never had an issue of fumes, explosions, or leaking acid. With that being said, I have also been very proactive towards maintaining batteries. With the batteries in the rear chances are that they will also be much cleaner, and less susceptible to corrosion from road debris. (At least I’m hoping!)
6. After I get the batteries relocated to the rear I will rewire almost all electrical systems to feed off of the battery group that I want to based upon the batteries design. For example, it’s not a good idea to be in a -20 degree environment and try to start with a deep cycle battery, it might do it once or maybe twice, but more then that I wouldn’t count on it. Thus the purpose of me moving and adding the group 31 batteries. The group 78s are designed as a starting battery, and the group 31 are designed as a dual purpose battery, it can be discharged without damaging it.
7. Once I get the systems where I want them to operate from and finish the interior electrical rewire, I haven’t figured it out to the amp, but I am guessing that with all systems drawing a load including front and rear winches (which how often are both your front and rear winches doing a max pull? Rarely) I might be in the neighborhood of 500 amps – 800 amps? Might be more than that. This it also with EVERYTHING on!!! Another fact that I am looking at is the addition of another cs-144 if the parts to upgrade one alternator is above the cost of a new (with warranty) cs-144. That will be an easy way to produce 300 amps at 2000 rpm.
As always all thoughts and comments are welcome and suggested.
Why move the batteries?
1. I am tired of repairing the oem battery brackets. Just after getting the truck I installed a battery tray on the driver’s side just like oem, except it was of my design. I have removed and repaired the factory oem battery tray at least 6 times since I have owned the truck and I haven’t really had any ‘hard core off road time.
2. I need more room under the hood for relay wiring of equipment for the operation of the truck and the subsystems that I am planning to install. i.e. relay for headlights, relay for high beam, etc, etc. I have 5 relays under the hood now and I am out of room.
3. The way the factory mounts the batteries is rather questionable. The batteries are mounted up front for weight distribution rather anything else. Even modern vehicles are now produced with batteries in the truck under the spare tire. The amount of juice used by the starter is virtually the same compared from then to now, the load of the batteries have increased with the introduction of the electric fans, modern Wi-Fi in vehicles, air conditioning systems, etc, etc. The average alternator coming out of the factory as of 2005 is 140 amps, compared to 1970 which was 65 amps.
4. The batteries will be in a cooler environment. Fact is the under hood temperatures can reach upwards of 200 degrees at times. Having a battery in those conditions can cause more damage to a battery then using it in prolonged cold environments.
5. I want to attempt to do this. I have had three vehicles that I have relocated the batteries to another area of the vehicle. I have never had an issue of fumes, explosions, or leaking acid. With that being said, I have also been very proactive towards maintaining batteries. With the batteries in the rear chances are that they will also be much cleaner, and less susceptible to corrosion from road debris. (At least I’m hoping!)
6. After I get the batteries relocated to the rear I will rewire almost all electrical systems to feed off of the battery group that I want to based upon the batteries design. For example, it’s not a good idea to be in a -20 degree environment and try to start with a deep cycle battery, it might do it once or maybe twice, but more then that I wouldn’t count on it. Thus the purpose of me moving and adding the group 31 batteries. The group 78s are designed as a starting battery, and the group 31 are designed as a dual purpose battery, it can be discharged without damaging it.
7. Once I get the systems where I want them to operate from and finish the interior electrical rewire, I haven’t figured it out to the amp, but I am guessing that with all systems drawing a load including front and rear winches (which how often are both your front and rear winches doing a max pull? Rarely) I might be in the neighborhood of 500 amps – 800 amps? Might be more than that. This it also with EVERYTHING on!!! Another fact that I am looking at is the addition of another cs-144 if the parts to upgrade one alternator is above the cost of a new (with warranty) cs-144. That will be an easy way to produce 300 amps at 2000 rpm.
As always all thoughts and comments are welcome and suggested.
whether a battery is deep cycle or not has nothing to do with how it starts a vehicle... the amp draw is the amp draw, whether that's 300 amps from a 700 cca deep cycle or a 900 cca "starting" battery...
mudbuggy
1/2 ton status
Absolutely, but how the battery recovers from the draw is coupled with the life span of the battery
DEMON44
Low-Tech Redneck
I've got a brand new 130 amp 22si here if your interested. Oem new not reman. You can probably crank that baby up.
Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk
Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk
meanboyjr
1/2 ton status
I made inset batt boxes just in front of the wheel wells on my old '81 Jimmy. Nothing fancy for wiring or anything, but dang did it ever get rid of every stupid squeak and groan from up front. The weight of the batt's on the factory trays up front caused a lot of noise over bumps as the trays deteriorated over time. Washboard fire roads killed mine quickly, and I had repaired them several times before relocating.
I replaced all my batt cables with 1/0 fine strand welding cable, which also made a big difference.
The dimple die batt hold down looks slick. A set of those dies is on my wish list as the next tool for me.
Rene
Oddly enough, I like this idea. It should be relatively easy to seal off and vent compartments, or to use a gel cell, as already mentioned. My stock batt tray is on it's last legs already, and this gives me some food for thought.
mudbuggy
1/2 ton status
Thanks for the offer,but I have a very good line on parts locally. Thanks again
super k
1/2 ton status
Thanks for explaining all that,mud buggy. I've never had such issues and wondered if there was a reason I never thought of or had yet to experience. I've been 'wheelin' since the 64 amp era (and even 47a was standard) and have done dual alternators/batteries for winches (always preferred pto). Always willing to learn something new.
mudbuggy
1/2 ton status
No problem. I'm basically tired of having to react. Trying something different to be proactive. Anytime
badmix
1/2 ton status
Cool deal, Im with mudbuddy on this. He is doing it cause he wants to. Thats enough reason for me. 
.
We tie multi batteries together at work on a daily basis. We are running 3 deep cycle batteries in Series (double voltage) as back up to our telecom system.Its not that hard at all. Im going to run mine in my trailer in Parallel (same voltage, double capacity). Same with my dual battery setup in my Blazer.
The only and biggest issue with moving batts to the back is the wiring and routing. Just got to make sure it doesnt get chaffed on frame rails or body parts and that the cable is big enough. Even length of cable will add to the amp draw on the system.
. We tie multi batteries together at work on a daily basis. We are running 3 deep cycle batteries in Series (double voltage) as back up to our telecom system.Its not that hard at all. Im going to run mine in my trailer in Parallel (same voltage, double capacity). Same with my dual battery setup in my Blazer.
The only and biggest issue with moving batts to the back is the wiring and routing. Just got to make sure it doesnt get chaffed on frame rails or body parts and that the cable is big enough. Even length of cable will add to the amp draw on the system.
how are you running out of room to mount relays? They are little one inch squares that can be mounted anywhere. If its one thing these trucks have is room in the engine compartment.
Why not run duel alternators?
Why not run duel alternators?
mudbuggy
1/2 ton status
I'll go out to my truck now and take pics of the setup for relays and the busbar. Problem is that I can't upload until I get home tonight. I don't like crowding wiring together. I think I have 5 relays in there now with room for four more in that same spot.
Cool deal, Im with mudbuddy on this. He is doing it cause he wants to. Thats enough reason for me.
We tie multi batteries together at work on a daily basis. We are running 3 deep cycle batteries in Series (double voltage) as back up to our telecom system.Its not that hard at all. Im going to run mine in my trailer in Parallel (same voltage, double capacity). Same with my dual battery setup in my Blazer.
The only and biggest issue with moving batts to the back is the wiring and routing. Just got to make sure it doesnt get chaffed on frame rails or body parts and that the cable is big enough. Even length of cable will add to the amp draw on the system.
If they are 12 volt batteries then it's triple voltage (36 volts).
mudbuggy
1/2 ton status
Pics
100 amp breaker -
with the charge wire to the second group 78 battery is in my hand. The relay to the left controls the switches in the dash. When power is removed then everything goes off. If I would run this to a constant 12 volts I could turns things off or on without the key on
Busbar
- got a whole other side that is open. Just don't have room for wire routing
Relay mount
- four mounted there, the relay that controls the switches themselves is up next to the circuit breaker
1st group 78 battery
- the truck is tied to the oem side post. The second battery is hooked to the first through the top posts. I know those clamps are junk, I have the marine grade clamps at home for the finished project
Don't know if this is going to work. Here we go!
100 amp breaker -
with the charge wire to the second group 78 battery is in my hand. The relay to the left controls the switches in the dash. When power is removed then everything goes off. If I would run this to a constant 12 volts I could turns things off or on without the key on
Busbar
- got a whole other side that is open. Just don't have room for wire routing
Relay mount
- four mounted there, the relay that controls the switches themselves is up next to the circuit breaker
1st group 78 battery
- the truck is tied to the oem side post. The second battery is hooked to the first through the top posts. I know those clamps are junk, I have the marine grade clamps at home for the finished project
Don't know if this is going to work. Here we go!
