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Considering a Suburban Tow Rig
- Thread starter Richcz28
- Start date
I used to laugh at back up cameras and said they were for bad drivers that can't back up. After having one, I admit it is really nice when backing up to a trailer tongue. I believe they didn't become a factory item until about '07 IIRC. Pioneer makes a nice setup, if you wanted to go aftermarket obviously.
Have you considered just buying something with the INTENTION to rebuild some components? There are a lot of freeway cruiser Suburbans out there that might have high mileage but have a clean body. Might be able to find something cheap enough with say, that 176K, and just go get the trans rebuilt right away so it's out of the way. I think it only costs about $2500 to do a 4L80E. Especially if it is still driving and doesn't have any hard part damage. I don't think I would be too concerned with a 6L or 8.1L. I would think 250K+ should be easily achievable from them without rebuilding. In a commercial vehicle moving weight, yeah, but as someone mentioned SUV's usually see a pretty easy life.
@rjfguitar, I could see some resurgence of gasoline-based tow rigs for 2 reasons.
1.) There are now a bunch of Dmax and 6.7 engines that have hit the end of their lifespans, leaving owners with an expensive pill to swallow when it comes to rebuild costs. I'm skipping over Ford as many of their diesel owners have already discovered the costs of rebuilding their engines (). In either case, some of the folks get nostalgic for engines that could be purchased and rebuilt cheaply. 6.5, 5.9, 7.3 and 6.2 engines weren't that expensive to rebuild, so this wider price gap is somewhat new. Will this drive a big block resurgence? No. But it is something that will be rattling around in the minds of folks who balk at spending $30k for a truck that requires a rebuild.
2.) The EPA has promised stricter diesel regulations. Diesels are already suffering efficiency losses (and maintenance headaches) under the current regulations. If new regulations continue to nibble away at efficiency faster than engine design is improving it, and if the price gap between gasoline and diesel fuel widens out, I could see a business case made for reviving gasoline tow rigs. Will this actually happen? IDK, it's all speculation on my part. But it doesn't seem too far-fetched to me. Time will tell.
Although, as noted before, "gasoline tow rig" doesn't necessarily mean big block. Given the movement toward smaller forced-induction engines, we're already seeing the 5.3 being on the larger end of the displacement spectrum. How times change.
You make valid points. I will bring up Ford. The 6.0L and especially the 6.4L come to mind. A lot of that though, is on the owners. When you upload a 200HP tune into your stock 2009 F250, play at your own risk with a very expensive toy..... Stock failure rates are blown out of proportion by the hot rodders, IMHO.
As far as emissions, I think we've already made that hurtle. The whole DPF and urea has brought diesels into a new level of emissions that should be "standard" for a long time. It's been a slow process trying to get these emission systems to be reliable, or even function properly for that matter in the beginning. But, it looks like the manufacturers will continue to get things more stream lined and better as time goes on. I think of it for diesels as it was for gas engines in the 70's. When big V8's were down into the 200's in HP because of emissions regulations, nobody then probably thought that 35 years later we'd have a 707HP production muscle car that not only passes emissions, but is much cleaner than any of the 70's80's smog V8's. Innovation is awesome.
It's interesting ( sorry Rich gonna continue the derail) that I have talked to several friends who I would consider typical diesel consumers. They tow maybe 6 or 7 times a year probably no more than 12 at the outside. A couple of these guys are wishing for gas motors. Not old school stuff but new technology type big block.
And there is only one reason. Fuel milage. All the emissions stuff has seemed to have greatly reduced fuel milage couple that with diesel around here being 10 to 20 cents more expensive than premium in the winter and there are alot of guys wanting a gas motor back.
I doubt it will happen but just an interesting observation I have made lately.
Modern engines are just head and shoulders above older engines irregardless of gas or diesel.
And there is only one reason. Fuel milage. All the emissions stuff has seemed to have greatly reduced fuel milage couple that with diesel around here being 10 to 20 cents more expensive than premium in the winter and there are alot of guys wanting a gas motor back.
I doubt it will happen but just an interesting observation I have made lately.
Modern engines are just head and shoulders above older engines irregardless of gas or diesel.
Diesel , even with all the emissions crap is still king . Power eclipses even the most badass modern gas engines and mileage while working is still 50% better .
The only thing a gas engine is better at is initial cost of purchase.
Will an 8.1 pull a 20,000# load up a steep mountain grade ? Sure but it won't do it nearly as efficiently or anywhere close to as many times as a duramax. ( plug a Cummins into that equation and it gets even worse for the gas engine ) I would be curious to see a cost per mile comparison between a 8.1 and a 6.6 to 500,000 miles that pulled heavy 30% of the time , I would bet a case of Pendlton that the Diesel comes out on top, not only that the resale value on the diesel would still be pretty decent.
The only thing a gas engine is better at is initial cost of purchase.
Will an 8.1 pull a 20,000# load up a steep mountain grade ? Sure but it won't do it nearly as efficiently or anywhere close to as many times as a duramax. ( plug a Cummins into that equation and it gets even worse for the gas engine ) I would be curious to see a cost per mile comparison between a 8.1 and a 6.6 to 500,000 miles that pulled heavy 30% of the time , I would bet a case of Pendlton that the Diesel comes out on top, not only that the resale value on the diesel would still be pretty decent.
I actually totally agree. For anyone who is towing 30% of the miles on their truck it would be stupid not to get a diesel.
I'm just pointing out some anecdotal evidence based on my conversations with people that there in the future might actually be a demand for a big gas motor.
There is truly no argument that a diesel is a better option when towing.
But take me for example. I look at crew cab pickups all the time. I have seen 8.1 L trucks go for half the price of the exact same truck with a duramax. I am not sure what GM recommends but 87 octane seems to work well with the 8.1 considering the fuel cost difference here locally would be at least 30¢ and alot closer to 50¢ a gallon. I could rebuild the 8.1 and the Allison trans and still be ahead dollar wise.
But I don't really tow that much. And when I do it's less than 10k lbs.
And much of that is exclusive to our gas vs diesel price locally
I'm just pointing out some anecdotal evidence based on my conversations with people that there in the future might actually be a demand for a big gas motor.
There is truly no argument that a diesel is a better option when towing.
But take me for example. I look at crew cab pickups all the time. I have seen 8.1 L trucks go for half the price of the exact same truck with a duramax. I am not sure what GM recommends but 87 octane seems to work well with the 8.1 considering the fuel cost difference here locally would be at least 30¢ and alot closer to 50¢ a gallon. I could rebuild the 8.1 and the Allison trans and still be ahead dollar wise.
But I don't really tow that much. And when I do it's less than 10k lbs.
And much of that is exclusive to our gas vs diesel price locally
If gas is 30% cheaper, but you use 100% more , and the truck 50 % price but only lasts a 25% of the time you really don't save any money. Lower initial cost is the only benefit
I will agree that not everyone needs a 9000# crew cab diesel with 400hp
But saying a 9000# crew cab big block with 350 hp is cheaper doesn't really pencil out .
But saying a 9000# crew cab big block with 350 hp is cheaper doesn't really pencil out .
When I was really considering it the gas truck vs diesel truck actually end up being very similar assuming neither truck needs repairs. Considering that most diesels I was looking at had 250k plus on them and most of the gas trucks were more in the sub 150k mile range, I think it's safe to say both would have needed some repair.
It's an interesting debate though and at 150k miles studies would suggest the gas equivalent has a cost benefit but beyond 200k miles I would imagine the diesel levels that and at 300k+ I'm sure the diesel would win hands down.
But that pointless cause I will be in the slow lane all day long in my square body with a 6.5 praying it doesn't overheat and watching my EGTs closer than the road lol.
And I won't have a truck payment............just a mantainence payment lol
I'm enjoying the derail.
I was roughing out fuel costs the other day based on 20k miles a year. I might not always put on 20k miles a year, but that's close to what I average right now between the truck and the vw.
It sounds like an 8.1 would net me around 10mpg. If gas is an average of $2.50 over the next 5 years, that's a 25,000 fuel bill.... I could also look at that as the fuel cost to put another 100k miles on the truck.
If I went ecoboost, it sounds safe to figure an average of 20mpg. People are legitimately getting 22-25 mpg on the highway empty and around 14 loaded. This truck would cost $12,500 less in fuel.
My math may just be rough and a little skewed but you get the idea. Add in what some of you all consider maintenance i.e.: tranny rebuild, engine rebuild, and replacing everything else on the 8.1, suddenly it becomes a far more expensive option. I know I'm negating taxes and insurance.
Let's not forget that the value of the new truck doesn't equal zero at the end of this cycle. The value of the new truck after 5 years and 100k is still in the 15-20k range.
So, you've spent roughly 30k on the new truck plus $12,500 in fuel. Which gets you a total cost of $42,500 over 100k miles.
The used truck is $10,000 plus at least $5,000 in major repairs plus $25,000 in fuel. The used truck costs $40,000 over 100k miles.
Without going diesel in a used vehicle, there may not be much point, unless the used vehicle is super cheap, has super low miles, and has been really well maintained.
I was roughing out fuel costs the other day based on 20k miles a year. I might not always put on 20k miles a year, but that's close to what I average right now between the truck and the vw.
It sounds like an 8.1 would net me around 10mpg. If gas is an average of $2.50 over the next 5 years, that's a 25,000 fuel bill.... I could also look at that as the fuel cost to put another 100k miles on the truck.
If I went ecoboost, it sounds safe to figure an average of 20mpg. People are legitimately getting 22-25 mpg on the highway empty and around 14 loaded. This truck would cost $12,500 less in fuel.
My math may just be rough and a little skewed but you get the idea. Add in what some of you all consider maintenance i.e.: tranny rebuild, engine rebuild, and replacing everything else on the 8.1, suddenly it becomes a far more expensive option. I know I'm negating taxes and insurance.
Let's not forget that the value of the new truck doesn't equal zero at the end of this cycle. The value of the new truck after 5 years and 100k is still in the 15-20k range.
So, you've spent roughly 30k on the new truck plus $12,500 in fuel. Which gets you a total cost of $42,500 over 100k miles.
The used truck is $10,000 plus at least $5,000 in major repairs plus $25,000 in fuel. The used truck costs $40,000 over 100k miles.
Without going diesel in a used vehicle, there may not be much point, unless the used vehicle is super cheap, has super low miles, and has been really well maintained.
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Don't forget fuel filter changes and double the amount of oil for oil changes for a diesel. It adds up.
Yea, I used to just get my truck oil changed at jiffy lube or wherever and the last time I went it became no longer cost effective. I hate having to dispose of the oil after and the general mess I always make, but in the past 5 years a diesel oil change by me has easily doubled in price.
Fuel filters for the 6.2 are cheap. Are they pricey for the newer trucks?
I still don't get it when people post up this reason. A fuel filter for my Cummins Dodges is under $15, I think the fuel filter for my 7.3 PSD trucks is even cheaper than that.
IIRC, the LS and big blocks hold 6 quarts. My diesels hold 12. I go nearly twice the mileage in my diesels as I do with the gas stuff. Yes, a diesel's oil filter does cost a few dollars more, it's bigger. Factory air boxes are nearly identical between gas and diesel in the same chassis so the air filter is a wash.
If someone utilizes proper mileage out of their diesel's oil change instead of dumping good oil at 3-4K, there is little extra cost on the diesel side. At least a small enough difference it's not even worth a consideration when purchasing a vehicle.
If you drive anything that requires a synthetic oil the prices are the same. I get the 2.5 gallon jugs of delo at Wally World for 28$ my 5qt jug of synthetic for the VW is 37$.. the filter costs triple what a 6.2 filter costs.. and that's a car.. maintenance costs are moot.. especially when your not towing year round and just piling on highway miles.
You are correct...the stupid gas vs. diesel debate will live on forever. I will always say that if you tow quite a bit in a month, hands down just get a newer diesel. I have towed with a few before and they are hands and foot better than any gas motor out there (stock or built). I just think some people should really debate how they are going to use a truck before they make a purchase. Some of the points that @blazinzuk has just made is exactly the way that I think. If you are the type of guy who only tows once or twice a month (if that), then is a diesel really necessary for you? I vote no. I think you can get more for your money buy going with an 8.1 or 6.0 3/4 ton rig and still be happy with more money in your pocket. But if you tow regularly and tow heavy, then by all means buy the diesel...you will never regret it.
And yes, my V3500 had a TBI350/TH400 combo in it before, and I just swapped in an 8.1/NV4500 into it with a full stand alone harness and a tune on the 8.1. For me, this truck will never be a DD, it will be a fun/tow rig that gets driven maybe once a week, if that. So I couldn't justify the costs of purchasing a diesel or even swapping in a Cummins into mine....for my situation, this combo in this truck is perfect. I'm not completely done yet (getting close), but I will be right around $14,000 when the build is done (with paint too), but I did it over a year and have no payment.....and it turns heads
Either way, I don't want to come off like a dick, I just comment on threads like this to hopefully get people to really think about how they are going to use a truck before making a purchase.
Oh, and the 8.1's are very popular in the marine world too...I found that out when I started doing research on the motor before my swap....8.1's in some of those boats are freaking bad A$$
We may have made this hurdle, but the EPA is notorious for inventing new hurdles on a semi-regular basis. Not sure how long current standards are going to last, but it's kinda like betting on the wind direction on the 31st of February 2 years from now. Your guess is as good as mine.
There's no argument that diesels win the towing game. But many of the people who NEEEEEED a tow rig will hardly ever tow with it. And many buyers are short-sighted. As much as I like doing the math before buying a vehicle (like Rich has done here), most folks don't. And it's easier for a salesman to push a small price increase vs. the larger premium that diesel rigs command. Someone who tows <500 miles a year is not likely to shell out big bucks for a Dmax, but would still like to feel power on command. I see this person wanting a cheap high-HP engine.
But IDK, this isn't how I actually evaluate vehicles. I'm guessing based on the people that I know and the stuff that I read. Pure guess work.
On with the derail. I work on a fleet of utility trucks, mostly ford. We have had so many failures with the '07 and newer diesels that we are going back to gassers, at least on some of our trucks. Until next year when you will no longer be able to get anything but a diesel due to the v10 being phased out for emissions reasons. Take for example an '08 6.4L powerstroke. Most of ours are on at least there 3rd engine by the time they get to 150K miles. We have one currently that we just added up all the maintenance and repair costs on it and it is over $160,000 since it came out of warranty(that also includes repairs on the utility body not just the engine and chassis). To replace one of those engines at a dealer with all the extras we add on it is usually about $25-30,000. Our trucks that have gone with the v10 gas engine usually get about 50-75,000 before needing an engine. To replace a v10 it is at least half of the cost of the diesel. Oil changes also for example. A diesel will cost a couple hundred for oil and filters if you change all the filters. A gas engine will be roughly $25-30 for oil and air filter and maybe another $30 bucks for oil if you buy the good stuff. As far as fuel economy my diesel trucks get roughly 10 mpg and my 15,000lb service truck with a v10 gets about 7 mpg. All of the fuel gets put on a card and kept track of. We were doing some figuring the other day with total fuel costs and the diesels were actually costing more if broken down by miles and fuel used. I wish the auto makers were still offering a big block gas option. After being a diesel mechanic for 13 yrs and working for a fleet I would definitely go with a gasser. There are just too many costs added on with a diesel. If I was towing a trailer every single day I would prob go diesel but most likely it would be a medium duty but for the few times a yr I tow I would rather have a gasser. My personal '04 6.0L powerstroke needs $3,000 in injectors and another $500-600 for a FICM. If a turbo goes out that's another couple thousand and this is with me doing all my own labor. I plan on running it till it takes a sh*t and then swapping it out for an 8.1L or another big block chevy gasser. Just my two cents but to each his own.
Are you planning on DDing the new rig? I was thinking you would only be using it sporadically. If you really are planning on putting 20k miles on it every year, the math changes.
And once you start calculating fuel costs for a rig you drive regularly, common sense takes over and you wind up with a Saturn and a 6.2 truck.
