Engine Design Options...Two ways to build a 509?...aw heck, lets make it a 632BBC !!!

[Greg72]

I just did a DD calculation, and while I now know that DD is a ****ty program, and not to be trusted, this is just a estimation. Apparently, with a 631 cube motor (502 block bored to 4.600 and stroked to 4.75), WP Jenkins Merlin Aluminum Heads with 2.50" intake and 2.00" exhaust valves, 9.0:1 compression, Large Tube headers with open exhaust, 1100CFM Demon Carb, Dual Plane-High torque intake manifold, and an 11-230-3 cam, you should be puting out around 800ft/lbs at 2000rpm (more at 600rpm, likely closer to 900ft/lbs at idle) and 430hp at 3500 rpm. Not a bad idea... but again, DD has never been accurate, so I wouldn't put much faith in it.

COOL!

Can you do a screen capture of the dyno results, or save it as a .JPG, or .XLS???

Any chance you could either post it, or email it to me: [email protected]

 

[rjfguitar]

Ok....WHY? Greg, why do you want such a large motor with so many ponies? Gas has become a fortune and it's going to suck it down like crazy. You don't plan on running deep mud or anything right? I thought big power wasn't needed for the rocks?

I could see if you were building a mud truck but this will be a crawler right?

I'm not trying to bring down the thread at all....just curious if 500-600HP is NEEDED?

 

[Ryan B.]

Maybe you haven't been following how greg is building the ultimate blazer with the biggest and baddest parts and no expense spared.

Is 500-600 hp Needed? yup. is it going to be enough is the question. no such thing as "too much motor".

 

[big_truxx]

i always liked engines with same stroke/bore ie caddy 500 4.3" each or stroke a 454 to 4.25" just like its bore (482cid) or make the bb 4.5" squared and 572 cubes

 

[big_truxx]

I just did a DD calculation, and while I now know that DD is a ****ty program, and not to be trusted, this is just a estimation. Not a bad idea... but again, DD has never been accurate, so I wouldn't put much faith in it.

they are sposed to be within 5% acurate. so give or take 5% of its #'s it should be quite acurate.

 

[rjfguitar]

Maybe you haven't been following how greg is building the ultimate blazer with the biggest and baddest parts and no expense spared.

Is 500-600 hp Needed? yup. is it going to be enough is the question. no such thing as "too much motor".

Well if he's going for the biggest and baddest than I would understand.

But, I still don't see how 600HP would be needed.

 

[HarryH3]

It's just freakin' awesome when you pull out to pass someone while driving to or from the trail...

 

[thatK30guy]

Ok....WHY? Greg, why do you want such a large motor with so many ponies? Gas has become a fortune and it's going to suck it down like crazy. You don't plan on running deep mud or anything right? I thought big power wasn't needed for the rocks?

I could see if you were building a mud truck but this will be a crawler right?

I'm not trying to bring down the thread at all....just curious if 500-600HP is NEEDED?

Its not the "ponies" that you should be concerned about. Its the TORQUE these motors put out. I've got a few mags with the Mitchell motors in them and they had some 600-some cubed motor to run on pump gas and draw "only" 18 inches of vacuum at idle WITH THE A/C ON, and still made just over 800 lb. ft. of torque!!!

So, you gotta ask yourself, what to do with 800 lb. ft. of torque? (In the words of Bam Margera.....) Whatever the f--- I want!

Greg, let me see if I can find my Mitchell catalogs and the mags with the articles. They were pretty impressive.

BTW, why not check into the crate engines Mitchell builds? He's got some pretty radical things in there. Let me see if I can find the catalogs........

 

[Greg72]

Its not the "ponies" that you should be concerned about. Its the TORQUE these motors put out. I've got a few mags with the Mitchell motors in them and they had some 600-some cubed motor to run on pump gas and draw "only" 18 inches of vacuum at idle WITH THE A/C ON, and still made just over 800 lb. ft. of torque!!!

So, you gotta ask yourself, what to do with 800 lb. ft. of torque? (In the words of Bam Margera.....) Whatever the f--- I want!

Greg, let me see if I can find my Mitchell catalogs and the mags with the articles. They were pretty impressive.

BTW, why not check into the crate engines Mitchell builds? He's got some pretty radical things in there. Let me see if I can find the catalogs........

Wes,

The Mitchell catalogs are what got me started on this whole thing... (I'd like to see any articles you find though). The crate stuff he builds is RAD, but as discussed earlier his focus is on high HP engines (drag racing, full WOT type stuff)....my idea is really to do what that "Chevy High Performance" article did, take an HP-motor, throw away about 100 Peak HP, but gain all sorts of bottom end torque in the process.

I've been playing with an "evaluation" version of DesktopDyno that somehow appeared in my InBox this AM (thanks mystery helper!) and I already have a 632 producing over 720Lbs of torque from 2000RPM on up to around 4500RPM. The torque is falling off at higher RPMs but maybe with more work on the cam and head selection I can get the overall TQ curve even wider and flatter!!!

RJF,

I find it surprising that I have to extoll the virtues of "wretched excess" to a guy with a 3000 watt stereo system! Of all people, I figured you'd understand....


Let's face it, this '69K5 is not going to be my "daily driver" or anything (I've got about 4 other vehicles I could use for that).....this project is all about building something really unique and truly wicked (and I don't mean "wicked" like they say here in NH, I mean "wicked" like EVIL). A Blazer that can pull the front tires off the ground from a roll, just by mashing the throttle.....or that can do a 4WD burnout on dry pavement.....or something that can climb the steepest hills in 4LO with no gas pedal because it's got 700Lb/Ft of torque at idle and a 130:1 crawl ratio. Nobody needs a vehicle like this......but it's something I've WANTED to build for a while. The idea of using Mog axles, and a 6-Speed Manual are really strange and cool things I'm excited to do. There are about a million engineering problems to solve to make all of this work the way I want. I've been building this truck in my head for about the last 2 years....and I hate to admit that it will be probably 2 more years before I get the space to start assembling all of these parts into what I've imagined.

I see this project as an expression of "the best of what I've learned" type deal. I've only been into K5s since 2001, but I've been spending every free moment thinking about ideas, issues, (building things like ExcelCAD to teach myself suspension theory)...I'm even building the entire tube frame chassis in 1/4-scale right now on my dining room table a few feet away from where I'm sitting now (BTW -> it's about 40" long!)....I guess you could say I've got an ADDICTION???

Anyway, it's the kind of thing that I'm excited about....and it sounds like there are a lot of other people who get excited about stuff like this too (no matter HOW impractical it ultimately might be)

 

[rjfguitar]

It's just freakin' awesome when you pull out to pass someone while driving to or from the trail...

It sounds like it will be a trailered type K5. But if it sees the street that would be cool too.

 

[thatK30guy]

Greg, went downstairs and dug out some old mags and catalogs, from what I've had.

I found a Mitchell Monster Merlin 638 c.u.i. motor that is advertised as a "maximum street stocker". It produced 770 HP and 790 ft.lbs. torque, on pump gas. Using a 10.200" iron block, Merlin VR iron heads, roller cam, custom oil pan, Hardcore 1150 CFM Dominator and the price at that time was "only" $13,995.

This article was in a special "side issue" magazine by Popular Hot Rodding, the Annual 1999 issue and it was written by Cameron Evans. Its 10 pages long and very detailed.

I could go on and on about the article but would rather scan it and post it up here for everyone else to view. Its got ALL the specs and details about the 638.

Then I found my Mitchell catalogs and browsed them. The 638 is in one of them, too. Right below the 638 was the same engine advertised as "All Aluminum", "TRUE Pump Gas" "900 HP" "Coming Soon" "$26,995" motor. Don't know if this ever hit the market or not as I've never seen it in the mags or anything.

If money were no object, I'd love to try this Monster Merlin. I remember one other mag had a test done on this motor by Mitchell himself, in which he installed in his Chevelle. He had made some comment about sitting at the stop light with the A/C on and the big motor just purring like a kitten until he mashed the go-pedal. I think you get the idea here.

 

[rjfguitar]

Wes,
RJF,

I find it surprising that I have to extoll the virtues of "wretched excess" to a guy with a 3000 watt stereo system! Of all people, I figured you'd understand....

Now 3000 watts would be overkill, a battery killer, and annoying.....I've got half that.

Let's face it, this '69K5 is not going to be my "daily driver" or anything (I've got about 4 other vehicles I could use for that).....this project is all about building something really unique and truly wicked (and I don't mean "wicked" like they say here in NH, I mean "wicked" like EVIL). A Blazer that can pull the front tires off the ground from a roll, just by mashing the throttle.....or that can do a 4WD burnout on dry pavement.....or something that can climb the steepest hills in 4LO with no gas pedal because it's got 700Lb/Ft of torque at idle and a 130:1 crawl ratio. Nobody needs a vehicle like this......but it's something I've WANTED to build for a while.

Well then go for it by all means. I was just wondering if there was really any NEED for that kind of power. I was just curious if you were looking for this much power because you feel you will need to have your foot buried into 600/800 kind of power because something like a 400HP 454 simply won't be enough. If it's mainly to match a wild axle breaking motor to a wild and crazy K5, then I agree. It would be a woody shrinker to pop the hood and find a 305.... in something like you have planned.

 

[Greg72]

It sounds like it will be a trailered type K5. But if it sees the street that would be cool too.

Actually with the 6-speed (and it's .50:1 overdrive), it should run very nicely at highway speeds.... I'll trailer it to events like Moab where I'm going 2000 miles each way. But for most local events, there's no reason that I shouldn't be able to just drive it to the places I want to go. (If I can't drive and ENJOY it whenever I want then I haven't built it right.... )



Admittedly, it's going to be a "thirsty" mutha. I'm already accustomed to getting only 7MPG and filling up a 50 gallon tank (Burb)....so spending a C-note to put some gas in a vehicle is something I've already experienced!

 

[mcinfantry]

what 6 speed is .50 overdrive? im building a new project and would like to see more on that!

 

[Greg72]

what 6 speed is .50 overdrive? im building a new project and would like to see more on that!

The T56 and Richmond 6 speeds both have .50 overdrives

The Viper version of the T56 can handle pretty decent power, and there's a "modded" T56 out there that can supposedly handle up to about 650HP.




ps - If you do this conversion before I do, you'd better post pics!

 

[HarryH3]

I was just wondering if there was really any NEED for that kind of power. I was just curious if you were looking for this much power because you feel you will need to have your foot buried into 600/800 kind of power because something like a 400HP 454 simply won't be enough.

Once you experience "Violent Acceleration™ ", you'll understand that there's no going back... It's a want more than a need.

 

[Z3PR]

Sense you live so close to Bill Mitchells shop, I'd give them a call, tell them what your goal is, and what you are looking at, and see what they recomend.

 

[thatK30guy]

I've had a few phone conversations recently with both the Shafiroff and Bill Mitchell shops, to discuss my idea.

Go back up. He has been talking to Mitchells shop.

 

[rjfguitar]

Once you experience "Violent Acceleration™ ", you'll understand that there's no going back... It's a want more than a need.

My sled will pull a 12 second quarter, that kick is fun I'll agree. THats fine if that is what he wants, I was just curious if he needed that much power too, no big deal.

 

[Ryan B.]

Have you found ANY BBC fuel injection that can keep up with 632 cubic inches!? would be nice to have it still purring and running perfect on a sidehill.
I have this feeling its gonna need more than 1000 cfm! and i don't think BBC ramjet or edelbrock proflo was really designed for something that huge.
Maybe custom built injection is what you're gonna be after with a custom built monster motor.