For those that have had both in a truck, BBC or SBC?

[73k5blazer]

Ok Scott, you got me. I want a BBC now. I hope your happy.

The deal is, I also want a production class EFI system. I do like the Ram Jet system, but the Ram Jet 502 is $10k. I wouldn't mind spending money, but that just seems way too much for what it is.

However, GMPP did make an all alum ZL1 RamJet 454 and tuned the controller for the 454. It was a limited prod. run (200 I think), and was stupidly priced (came in around 20k , actually here's one on eBay now!)
Using the parts list from that engine, it's the same RamJet 502 system, just a different part number for the computer, which I've already looked up and you could buy from GM separate. The RamJet complete system is also available from GM by itself, complete with harness, injectors manifold/rails...etc)

WIth that, one could conceivably purchase an old tired production 454 block (they are around here for as little as $100), with machine work, and adhering to the specs of the cam and heads for the ZL454 they built, so the RamJet tuning would work right, one could conceivable build a nice Ram Jet 454 for, I price around $6800. That's with alum heads, 4340 forged crank and pistons. A wee bit cheaper if one used iron heads. That's only about $1200k more than the RamJet 350. Of course, if one wants to compare apples to apples, I could get a tired old 350 block for near nothing and build it cheaper than the GMPP ramjet 350 price.

For those that may be wondering, I've thoroughly researched various EFI systems. I won't run a carb, the ones available today just aren't up to the job of daily use in cold, salt, snow, heat these days, IMHO. And the Holly and Accell EFI system, you have to tune yourself, which I think won't come out much better than tuning a carb. I like the GM system as I know they've put over 1800 hours of tuning into that system and that's after it was initially developed for boats, and those are trained GM engineers, the attention to making it work right in cold, high altitude, heat, humidity, smooth idle. Not to mention weather, vibrations and other little things. Just my opinion, and that's what I want.
Oh, the K5's got SM465/205 with 14bff rear and Dana44 front. So the drivetrain is ok to take it I believe. I havn't bought d-shafts yet, they'll be on the way.

Anyway, the question is, money aside, is BBC worth it in a K5? I will tow some, a 4 place enclosed snowmobile trailer, but my K5 with the factory tired 350 never seemed to mind that trailer, and we usually only take 2 trips a year and I don't always drive. Medium trail use (not much rocks here in MI).

So for those that have had or have a nice 350 vs. a BBC, is the BBC really worth it or necessary in a K5?

I was set on the SBC, but several people I know, and some more thorough reading here is making me want a BBC now. I can't imagine why? The thinking was since I've put so much into my K5 thus far, it is my 'dream truck' after all, the best of the best, so why not a BBC.

I know the standard response will be, well, if you can, go for the BBC. I just kinda wonder from people that have had both in a trail/DD rig, what their thoughts are. Is it really that much better.

 

[BGKYK5]

Get a GenIII 6.0. You'll come out way ahead on $$$ and weight, and get factory EFI. Not quite a BBC, but close.

 

[K5dreamer]

one thing you might want to look into, and im just throwing it out as an option, is a system from MassFloEFI.com. I have not used this system but have looked into it, and i would probably personally give it a shot if i were building an engine right now. Im usually not a big fan of customer testamonials, but there are several write ups from hot rod magazine, car craft, etc. etc. and they seem to think it delivers on its promises. and its a helluva lot cheaper than the GMPP system. Probably a much lower profile as well, so you wouldnt need like a 4in cowl hood.

 

[sweetk30]

wrecked 2500 or 3500 with 8.1 bbc would be my swap for big block if i had the cash and option to buy.

 

[Snoozer]

I'll throw in 2 pennies here...

I'm in the same boat as you are. I kinda want a BB. If nothing else, to have bragging rights that its under the hood! Sure, stroked small blocks can make the same numbers. But those numbers are made at a lot higher rpm than a BB makes them. I wont even go into fuel economy. BBC will always get less than SBC. It takes fuel and air to make power. The more displacement you have, the more fuel and air you can cram in a cylinder, the more power you'll have on tap. Its as simple as that. Doesn't mean you shouldn't aim for the best bang for your buck though either! I think there can be a compromise!

The other thing to consider is the availability of aftermarket support. The SBC is the most coveted engine platform in the entire world. I have yet to see a parts catalog or a car enthusiast magazine that doesn't have oodles of inventory support and article write ups on the SBC. So I've been on this fence with you for a while.

But I'm like you...
My truck will be my toy that I hit the trails with and also camping and hunting. If its not going to be your DD, I would say consider the BBC. Then tell ME how you like it!!

 

[k20]

big blocks for life. Anyway, back before I gave up on fuel injection (I hate going outside and it wont start, time to start guessing) anyway, I was looking at Mass Flo EFI. Its a mass air setup, basically stick it on with a base tune, and it will tune itself. May want to look into that.

 

[73k5blazer]

I've looked at the MassFlo stuff. It's a simplistic system, and that's how they acheive it's ease of adjustability and plug an play. But again, it doesn't compensate for altitude, vacuum changes (better known as, stepping on the gas, or changes in vacuum), humidity, and other factors, and the nail in the coffin is all their wire connections are old school unsealed stuff, which will rust and corrode inside of 2-3 years around here, causing unnamed issues.
I don't have experience with it, mind you, just my observation.

 

[k20]

well its a mass air setup, a speed density setup is what relies on the vacuum signal. As far as altitude, it is measuring the amount of air that passes over the sensor, then it checks it against the o2 sensor. So in effect, it is compensating for altitude changes.

As for the wiring connectors, I dont know of any aftermarket setup that uses weatherpack connections.

 

[Fabrimacator21]

If I was you I'd look into a 383... You can build a 500 ft lb 450hp 383 for around 4000. By the time you put tpi (from junkyard) and get all the tuning tools your at 5500 or so. Then you'd have to pay for some dyno time and let an expert tune it which would probably at the very most run you another 800. When it's all said and done it'll blow any 6.0 out of the water for the money with numbers damn near identical to a bb with better gas mileage.

I'm a big fan of the 6.0l and newer motors but the new stuff is not cheap to hot rod. Also you'll have a brand new motor with the 383 instead of wondering if the previous owner kept up on oil changes.

 

[K5dreamer]

of course i could be a devils advocate here and if youre just after torque..... you could always swap a 4-53T into the bay. or, if youre really nuts, find an aluminum block 6v53T military Detroit Diesel. Throw a 5 speed spicer manual behind it, and youve got 700+ lbsft of torque. and sweet mary mother of god if youve ever heard one of those spool up to max rpm.... and you could even jake brake it for going down hill......

course im just a diesel nut... i LOVE my 6.2L, and have been inspired by the heath performance diesel 300hp 6.5TD. if only i had the money to act on such inspiration

 

[BGKYK5]

... your at 5500 or so.... When it's all said and done it'll blow any 6.0 out of the water for the money ...

I'm a big fan of the 6.0l and newer motors but the new stuff is not cheap to hot rod. Also you'll have a brand new motor with the 383 instead of wondering if the previous owner kept up on oil changes.

Yes but you could get a stock 6.0L for $1k and swap it in for another $1k and have 350hp for a third the price of a built 383 and much better fuel economy.

Yes a built 383 or BBC would smoke it, and the GenIII stuff is expensive to hotrod, but why hotrod it, you'll have GenIII bragging rights with it stock.

 

[dfl701]

Just go buy the 502 and that way you can say yes I have a BBC 502. How many people can really say that? That would be a nice feeling

 

[Fabrimacator21]

Yes but you could get a stock 6.0L for $1k and swap it in for another $1k and have 350hp for a third the price of a built 383 and much better fuel economy.

Yes a built 383 or BBC would smoke it, and the GenIII stuff is expensive to hotrod, but why hotrod it, you'll have GenIII bragging rights with it stock.

I hear ya... I've thought about it too but I have a hard time buying used motors.

Where can you get one for 1k? Most around here are 2g's and up.

 

[muddermilitia]

You already have the fiberglass body, put in an aluminum head small block with some minimal work and the truck is gonna fly! I know a guy with a fiberglass bodied early bronco with a Supercharged 5.0L and he can lift a front tire when he gets on it.

 

[73k5blazer]

If I was you I'd look into a 383... You can build a 500 ft lb 450hp 383 for around 4000. By the time you put tpi (from junkyard) and get all the tuning tools your at 5500 or so. Then you'd have to pay for some dyno time and let an expert tune it which would probably at the very most run you another 800. When it's all said and done it'll blow any 6.0 out of the water for the money with numbers damn near identical to a bb with better gas mileage.

I'm a big fan of the 6.0l and newer motors but the new stuff is not cheap to hot rod. Also you'll have a brand new motor with the 383 instead of wondering if the previous owner kept up on oil changes.

I'm not a big fan of the TBI EFI for various reasons. It's an ok system, I wish I had it on my 4.3lv6 in my c10.
6.0l is an interesting idea. I was looking more into that, the stand alone controllers and what's need to make it run right. Could be interesting. I don't want a half used motor though, so if I got one, I'd go through it completely. I'm not looking to hot rod, I want some torque and performance, but once installed, I also don't want to screw with it, at all. I've had enough of my share of swapping metering rods in a parking lot because it clouded up and started to rain. I'm not gonna be pulling the motor out and adding things to it either, once installed, I want it there to last for the long haul.

of course i could be a devils advocate here and if youre just after torque..... you could always swap a 4-53T into the bay. or, if youre really nuts, find an aluminum block 6v53T military Detroit Diesel. Throw a 5 speed spicer manual behind it, and youve got 700+ lbsft of torque. and sweet mary mother of god if youve ever heard one of those spool up to max rpm.... and you could even jake brake it for going down hill......

course im just a diesel nut... i LOVE my 6.2L, and have been inspired by the heath performance diesel 300hp 6.5TD. if only i had the money to act on such inspiration

I like diesels too, I have one in my '97 with the 6.5ltd. It's got high mileage and still running strong, great motor. I wouldn't do that to my poor little Dana44 though, the 1000lbs+ of diesel weight above it would kill it.

Just go buy the 502 and that way you can say yes I have a BBC 502. How many people can really say that? That would be a nice feeling

It's alot of dough man. 10k, she'd be nice, but damn, that's pricey.

You already have the fiberglass body, put in an aluminum head small block with some minimal work and the truck is gonna fly! I know a guy with a fiberglass bodied early bronco with a Supercharged 5.0L and he can lift a front tire when he gets on it.

The glass isn't saving that much weight. It's heavy duty glass, thick, heavily reinforced, add in a full steel cage to frame and heavy gauge bumpers, OBA ank, and other weight accessories, and while I don't know yet, but my guess is 4500-5000lbs. It was 5500lbs stock before I tore it down.

I'm swinging back and forth now. The 6.0l presents some issues with the tuning and ECM, I need to do more research on that. Then I lean to the RamJet 350, then I lean back to building my own BB 454 with the RamJet system. Grrrrrr..........I thought I had this settled last year.

 

[Greg72]

BBC will be effortless power compared to the SBC...

Do you have a HP/TQ target for the truck? That might settle the discussion in a hurry. The higher that value is, the better the argument looks for the BBC.....cubes rule, and building a high-displacement/ high HP SBC ain't cheap.

 

[dfl701]

It's alot of dough man. 10k, she'd be nice, but damn, that's pricey.

oh i know its alot! to be honest i dont think i would go with it either. i would lean towards the 454 and rebuild it. the power they put out is ridiculous. all these guys are right. i think you just need to decide which BBC you want

 

[73k5blazer]

I'd like min 400ft-lbs for tq, and 350hp. The 350 RamJet gets that, but just barely.

I know how minimums go. When I was looking for houses, I wanted 10acres minimum, preferred more, but no less than 10. Since around here, 10acre plots are alot more common than anything above 10acres (with a decent house on it, that is), what did I end up with, 10acres. Now while I'm very happy with my 10, it kinda wish I had 20 or 30. Of course that's how it always is, right, the grass is always greener syndrome.

I know the 350 would be just fine, but I just don't want to wonder, what if.....is the BBC, that much better. The efforless mention is a very good point. The BBC is going to get to that 400 mark much much easier.

Bah...well, I'll have to make a decision soon here. Early april is my target date for engine choices, and I want to have this truck finished by mid-summer, so..I'll have to sh!t or get off the pot here...

 

[Greg72]

350HP/400TQ isn't exactly a difficult target for a small block.... the 1HP/CubicInch thing is pretty easy to achieve these days.

I think it's going to come down to what sort of "deals" you find out there. All things being equal, if you can find a BBC short block at a price similar to what a more built SBC is going for, then the TQ number should be easy to hit.

A rebuildable 454 can be found for between $500 - $1000 with all the accessories. If you do a "stock" rebuild on it you might be able to get it assembled with machine work for another $2000.

The fuel injection system you want is going to cost you some $$$ no matter what platform you decide on, so really it seems like the question you need to answer is how inexpensively can you get into a fresh BBC long block, and how far off the mark is it from the SBC crate motors you're looking at.

 

[Fabrimacator21]

I'm not a big fan of the TBI EFI for various reasons. It's an ok system, I wish I had it on my 4.3lv6 in my c10.
6.0l is an interesting idea. I was looking more into that, the stand alone controllers and what's need to make it run right. Could be interesting. I don't want a half used motor though, so if I got one, I'd go through it completely. I'm not looking to hot rod, I want some torque and performance, but once installed, I also don't want to screw with it, at all. I've had enough of my share of swapping metering rods in a parking lot because it clouded up and started to rain. I'm not gonna be pulling the motor out and adding things to it either, once installed, I want it there to last for the long haul.

I was saying put TPI on it... not tbi. TPI can handle 450hp and can be had cheap at your local junkyard. TBI is a PITA when you start making over 300hp. (ask me how I know)

I'm not up on all the costs of BB parts but I know they are quite a bit more expensive then SB stuff.

If your not worried about weight and gas mileage then I'd say all it comes down to is how much power and or torque for your dollar you can get out of a sb and bb.