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Front suspension idea

Blue85 said:
How are they different from any other leaf spring in this respect? I would suspect something loose, like the shackle bolts, front spring bushing, U-bolts, etc. I mean how can the spring be floppy enough to shift during steering, but not give massive body roll?

Have somebody turn the wheel while you watch everything underneath.

A couple other long shots:
-Bad steering U-joint hanging up?
-Front driveshift slip joint hanging up?
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I don't know, I just think I read that somewhere. It doesn't make sense to me.

The joints are good in the axle shafts and I've driven it with and without the front shaft with the same problem.

I've double checked the shackle bolts, u-bolts, center pins, and the hardware the holds the front spring hanger on and the rear shackle mount and they are all tight.

I'll just swap the springs and see if it's any different than with the 52's.
 
Leaf springs, can't live with them, can't live without them. Actually you can live without them but it's a little more cost up front.

New bushings all around will help keep the steering more precise so that's a pretty easy thing to try.

I don't like the inherent bind of a panhard bar but for street driving (limited range of travel being used) it will definitely help out. That will fix the axle location issues and may adjust your roll center height and change the roll characteristics a little too.

Good dampers can slow the rate of body roll but they won't change the amount of roll. When you whip the wheel they'll add support but on a long sweeper you're still going to lean the same. Stiffer springs or a swaybar are the only way to change this. In general the 52" systems as they're installed (overload pulled out) are REALLY soft and there's a lot of room to stiffen the spring and still have a good ride so that option isn't terrible.

Now I need to work for a while. Actually this kind of is work but I need to do other stuff.
 
I had 1/2 ton 52's on the front and they were scary on the highway. Now I have 3/4 ton 52s and it is WAY different. The ride is much stiffer, but they still flex a ton. Like Stephen said you still get all the roll eventually. There's no way I would want a 47" again, but I don't DD mine either.

I was gonna say broken center pin but you already checked that.
 
85 Jimmy said:
I've double checked the shackle bolts, u-bolts, center pins, and the hardware the holds the front spring hanger on and the rear shackle mount and they are all tight.
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Have you been under there while someone else was steering? It can be enlightening. I've seen a rig where the DS spring was walking forward and back over an inch :eek1:. I've seen the steering box moving on the frame and the frame flexing. Overall stuff doesn't always do what you think it does and those things will never get solved until you do know.
 
My Tahoe has 52s up front and I am on the verge of getting them removed and replaced with a link suspension. My issue with the 52s is not for body roll or even how the truck rides but is entirely to do with the steering.

My steering seriously feels like it is hooked up with a soggy noodle for a drag link. This is entirely because of the side to side motion that the narrow / long 2.5 x 52" springs allow. I've had a buddy turn the wheel while I watch and I can see the truck's body move a solid 1/2 inch sideways / upwards in either direction before the wheels go. When you look at how little actual motion there is in the tie rod you can see that amount of motion is a LOT of slop in the system.

I have hydraulic assist in the form of a balanced ram that replaced the tie rod, and I can say with certainty that hydraulic assist does not help with the slop. The ram doesn't move until the steering box comes up against some resistance to turning. There is so little effort needed to move the truck body sideways that the assist ram has very little effect to help the problem.

One thing that I installed that DID help considerably was the installation of a dual rate pnumatically disconnectable sway bar assembly in the front. With the bar locked in there is 1.5" of solid sway bar tube holding the front end from swaying and also keeping the body from lifting up away from the differential when steering. This removed a lot of the slop from the steering, but not all of it. When I disconnect the main bar and only leave the light sway bar connected up most of that steering slop comes back.

As mentioned above, you cannot really put a track bar in with leaf springs due to the different arc the bar and springs would have the axle move in. I have considered installing an easily disconnectable pan hard bar to fix the street manners, but I'd rather just swap to a link suspension to fix the problem entirely.

Also, keep in mind that 3/4 ton and 1/2 ton springs likely have the same main leaf and will flex sideways just as much regardless of the number of leaves stacked on top. Rubber bushings should definitely be replaced with stiff urethane and shackles should be kept as short as possible to remove as much sideways play as you can. Some folks report normal steering feel with their 52" spring swap, but I definitely can't. The 52s are awesome for wheeling rigs. They flex like crazy and ride very smoothly. But you give up a lot of streetability in exhange for the added offroad performance. I have considered installing a set of Ford front springs from an early 2000s Superduty. They are 3.5' wide and 54" long IIRC and could stand to work quite well for getting rid of all that lateral motion. The Fords run crossover(ish) steering from the factory.
 
Blue85 said:
Have you been under there while someone else was steering? It can be enlightening. I've seen a rig where the DS spring was walking forward and back over an inch :eek1:. I've seen the steering box moving on the frame and the frame flexing. Overall stuff doesn't always do what you think it does and those things will never get solved until you do know.
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I haven't been under the truck while someone else is turning the wheels. I pretty much do everything by myself, it's kinda hard to get someone to help.

Russell said:
My Tahoe has 52s up front and I am on the verge of getting them removed and replaced with a link suspension. My issue with the 52s is not for body roll or even how the truck rides but is entirely to do with the steering.

My steering seriously feels like it is hooked up with a soggy noodle for a drag link. This is entirely because of the side to side motion that the narrow / long 2.5 x 52" springs allow. I've had a buddy turn the wheel while I watch and I can see the truck's body move a solid 1/2 inch sideways / upwards in either direction before the wheels go. When you look at how little actual motion there is in the tie rod you can see that amount of motion is a LOT of slop in the system.

I have hydraulic assist in the form of a balanced ram that replaced the tie rod, and I can say with certainty that hydraulic assist does not help with the slop. The ram doesn't move until the steering box comes up against some resistance to turning. There is so little effort needed to move the truck body sideways that the assist ram has very little effect to help the problem.

One thing that I installed that DID help considerably was the installation of a dual rate pnumatically disconnectable sway bar assembly in the front. With the bar locked in there is 1.5" of solid sway bar tube holding the front end from swaying and also keeping the body from lifting up away from the differential when steering. This removed a lot of the slop from the steering, but not all of it. When I disconnect the main bar and only leave the light sway bar connected up most of that steering slop comes back.

As mentioned above, you cannot really put a track bar in with leaf springs due to the different arc the bar and springs would have the axle move in. I have considered installing an easily disconnectable pan hard bar to fix the street manners, but I'd rather just swap to a link suspension to fix the problem entirely.

Also, keep in mind that 3/4 ton and 1/2 ton springs likely have the same main leaf and will flex sideways just as much regardless of the number of leaves stacked on top. Rubber bushings should definitely be replaced with stiff urethane and shackles should be kept as short as possible to remove as much sideways play as you can. Some folks report normal steering feel with their 52" spring swap, but I definitely can't. The 52s are awesome for wheeling rigs. They flex like crazy and ride very smoothly. But you give up a lot of streetability in exhange for the added offroad performance. I have considered installing a set of Ford front springs from an early 2000s Superduty. They are 3.5' wide and 54" long IIRC and could stand to work quite well for getting rid of all that lateral motion. The Fords run crossover(ish) steering from the factory.
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That's pretty much exactly my experience with the 52's. If it was an offroad only truck it would be great, but I want this thing to be able to be a DD if I need it to be.

I'd love to swap to a 3 link front and 4 link rear, and maybe someday I will. If not for the great offroad handling, just for the road manners, but right now it's not going to happen. Maybe sometime in the future, but not now.
 
Russell said:
My Tahoe has 52s up front and I am on the verge of getting them removed and replaced with a link suspension. My issue with the 52s is not for body roll or even how the truck rides but is entirely to do with the steering.

My steering seriously feels like it is hooked up with a soggy noodle for a drag link. This is entirely because of the side to side motion that the narrow / long 2.5 x 52" springs allow. I've had a buddy turn the wheel while I watch and I can see the truck's body move a solid 1/2 inch sideways / upwards in either direction before the wheels go. When you look at how little actual motion there is in the tie rod you can see that amount of motion is a LOT of slop in the system.

I have hydraulic assist in the form of a balanced ram that replaced the tie rod, and I can say with certainty that hydraulic assist does not help with the slop. The ram doesn't move until the steering box comes up against some resistance to turning. There is so little effort needed to move the truck body sideways that the assist ram has very little effect to help the problem.

One thing that I installed that DID help considerably was the installation of a dual rate pnumatically disconnectable sway bar assembly in the front. With the bar locked in there is 1.5" of solid sway bar tube holding the front end from swaying and also keeping the body from lifting up away from the differential when steering. This removed a lot of the slop from the steering, but not all of it. When I disconnect the main bar and only leave the light sway bar connected up most of that steering slop comes back.

As mentioned above, you cannot really put a track bar in with leaf springs due to the different arc the bar and springs would have the axle move in. I have considered installing an easily disconnectable pan hard bar to fix the street manners, but I'd rather just swap to a link suspension to fix the problem entirely.

Also, keep in mind that 3/4 ton and 1/2 ton springs likely have the same main leaf and will flex sideways just as much regardless of the number of leaves stacked on top. Rubber bushings should definitely be replaced with stiff urethane and shackles should be kept as short as possible to remove as much sideways play as you can. Some folks report normal steering feel with their 52" spring swap, but I definitely can't. The 52s are awesome for wheeling rigs. They flex like crazy and ride very smoothly. But you give up a lot of streetability in exhange for the added offroad performance. I have considered installing a set of Ford front springs from an early 2000s Superduty. They are 3.5' wide and 54" long IIRC and could stand to work quite well for getting rid of all that lateral motion. The Fords run crossover(ish) steering from the factory.
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I went through all of this in the late 90s and I wish I could just send everyone right to the end but I'm finding that solution is not what everyone is looking for all the time. Lots of us enjoy the process (as frustrating as it can be) and guys do stuff as their skills, budget and involvment varies.

That said, coilovers are the end game. Anything you do to make any suspension system better is just winding around on the path toward that goal.

Let's see if my path sounds familiar:
Start off with re-arched spring all around, approx. 2.5" of lift, 31-33" tires
Next: unknown 4" front springs, flip in back, 33-36" tires
install TCI 4" EZrides
build my first custom springs front and rear at about 5" lift
steering has sucked since day one, build crossover
want steering precision beyond leaves and crossover, install panhard bar with goofy stuff to not bind when the panhard forces it side to side.
get tired of fighting it all and know that big tires are going to make axle control an issue with leaf springs and swap to coilovers. I should note that the leaf to coilover swap had nothing to do with "flex" or articulation. The leaves gave me all the articulation I wanted and I really only hoped to keep that with coilovers. It was control I was after and leaves could not provide.
That was in 2001 and other than some changes in axle placement and geometry I'm using the same shocks and basic layout today and it's still good. Good meaning we don't work on it much, it can do things like pre-run for KOH for a week and get tarped till we need it again and it's getting ready for it's 4th Ultimate Adventure trip with 1000+ miles on the road and trails. Obviously it's hit a happy spot with the suspension.

I really think our factory mounting point (not factory length) custom springs hit the sweet spot for a non-linked truck. Rates are practical (soft enough for great ride and flex but not super floppy), steering response is reasonable with crossover (not great but reasonable) and it's stuff you can bolt on and drive in a day with hand tools. Our UAK2500 is a great example of a very buildable truck that's really capable on leaves. Do I wish it had more travel and drove better? Sure, but it was a bolt on install and really does great for what it is.
 
Stephen said:
I should note that the leaf to coilover swap had nothing to do with "flex" or articulation. The leaves gave me all the articulation I wanted and I really only hoped to keep that with coilovers.
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Finally, someone has said it. This is the most true statement I have heard in a while. My 52's in the front flex just as much as most all coilovers I have seen, but I can't do 50 mph in sand whoops like they can :D.

This truly boils down to what do you really want out of your truck? Do you want to be able to wheel really hard and do some really hard trails, or do you care a little more about road manners? I have heard so many people complain about road manners with the 52 swap. I will admit, when I went from 4" TC lift springs in the front to 52's, I felt more body roll and steering was a little bit "looser" than before, but I am not building a K5 with 1 tons and 39's to drive well on the street! I want a wheeler. And to be honest, after a little while, I don't even notice the difference with 52's now, it just feels like how the truck is supposed to drive.
Now, if you care more and more about being able to drive it on the road for a considerable amount of time (and you don't have the time/money/whatever to go links with coilovers) than don't go with the 52's. It's that simple. It's not like my 4" lift springs didn't flex at all before, it's just that the 52's flex a whole lot better. But I still had a lot of fun wheeling my rig with 4" lift springs. However, I was willing to give up a little less road manners to be able to flex more (but it's not like I can't drive it down the street at all. I have had the thing up to 65 multiple times and still feel totally safe). Once again...what do you really want out of your truck?!?! I think more of us need to ask this question to ourselves when building these rigs
 
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Kay86K5 said:
Finally, someone has said it. This is the most true statement I have heard in a while. My 52's in the front flex just as much as most all coilovers I have seen, but I can't do 50 mph in sand whoops like they can :D.

This truly boils down to what do you really want out of your truck? Do you want to be able to wheel really hard and do some really hard trails, or do you care a little more about road manners? I have heard so many people complain about road manners with the 52 swap. I will admit, when I went from 4" TC lift springs in the front to 52's, I felt more body roll and steering was a little bit "looser" than before, but I am not building a K5 with 1 tons and 39's to drive well on the street! I want a wheeler. And to be honest, after a little while, I don't even notice the difference with 52's now, it just feels like how the truck is supposed to drive.
Now, if you care more and more about being able to drive it on the road for a considerable amount of time (and you don't have the time/money/whatever to go links with coilovers) than don't go with the 52's. It's that simple. It's not like my 4" lift springs didn't flex at all before, it's just that the 52's flex a whole lot better. But I still had a lot of fun wheeling my rig with 4" lift springs. However, I was willing to give up a little less road manners to be able to flex more (but it's not like I can't drive it down the street at all. I have had the thing up to 65 multiple times and still feel totally safe). Once again...what do you really want out of your truck?!?! I think more of us need to ask this question to ourselves when building these rigs
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I think you're exaggerating a little bit with the "50mph in sand whoops" deal. My driving force around more precise axle control was being able to drive over dry mud ruts cleanly. I remember being able to get up on top of the ruts but I could never hold it there. As soon as I got up on top it would fall back in no matter what I did with the wheel since the steering was just that sloppy. This is every day stuff in the back country. I've watched trucks in staight on mud pits where the slightest bump in the ruts throws the truck off line and the driver is sawing the wheel like mad trying to keep it straight.

I guess my point is that I get a little tired of "it's a trail rig and it's supposed to drive crappy" when the control of a better suspension is useful on the trail too. We don't have to build to KOH levels to realize the benefits of this idea. Bring the spring rates up a little, keep spring lengths practical, use good shocks, etc. It will drive better on AND off road and cost little more if any. And don't believe anyone who tells you their leaf springs work just as good as a linked suspension. A good leaf system is amazingly good for the time and effort invested but it will never do it all like links.

For the OP, I'm with you on trying the springs you have that will bolt back on. If you don't like how stiff it is again there's a lot of middle ground on spring rates and shock systems. And I fully understand wanting to be able to just drive the truck more. I really don't like how my K5 sits for weeks at a time when it's just fun to drive. The re-do/prep job going on right now should make it a lot better to drive on the highway and hopefully make it to where I can at least drive it to work once a week.
 
I went 50mph in the whoops at KOH in my Tahoe. And broke it. Badly.

Felt ok until that happened though :D Like Stephen said, links for me is NOT about articulation. Its all about axle control. I want precise steering and predictable compression / rebound control. Links and coil overs give me that, leaf springs do not.
 
I just got finished swapping the old lift springs back in. It looks like my axle is only about 1" forward and I checked my caster and I'm sitting at between 9-10* with 4.5" shackles. In spec would be between 7.5-8.5* and with the 52's I had 5-6*.

I need to get 2 shorter bolts for the spring plate since this spring pack isn't as fat and I need to drill out the upper holes on the shackles to 9/16". I should be able to drive it this weekend, so I can report back again after the road test.
 
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Yeah I will be very curious what your immediate seat of the pants feel is on ride quality and flex. My old lift springs (pro comp 6") were so stiff that when I flexed the truck a lot you couldn't open the doors!

Where do you measure caster? I never thought about that and I have freakin 7" shackles. I used some shims to get the pinion angle normal looking.
 
hillbilly deluxe said:
Yeah I will be very curious what your immediate seat of the pants feel is on ride quality and flex. My old lift springs (pro comp 6") were so stiff that when I flexed the truck a lot you couldn't open the doors!

Where do you measure caster? I never thought about that and I have freakin 7" shackles. I used some shims to get the pinion angle normal looking.
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I had these Tuff Country EZ ride 6" springs on the truck before and they didn't flex all that much, but then my shackle angle was straight up and down. Now it's close to 45*, so I'd think that they should flex more and have more droop.

I measure the caster with an angle finder on the top of the king pin. I used to work at a shop with an alignment rack and it confirmed the caster angle with the 52's was the same from the rack and the angle finder.
 
Well, I just took it for a test drive and it drives way better than the old 52's. It's alittle stiffer, but the steering is tight again.

I won't be able to flex it out unless I unbolt the shocks. Right now they're too short and only have about 1.5" until they max out.
 
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