Geronimo: 1959 Chevy Apache

[folkenheath]

You would for sure need a tune of the VE tables as that is what speed density needs/ calculates airflow off of. By changing the intake, you change the air flow characteristics. It doesn't mean it has to be done on a dyno, but lots of logging through normal driving, but a wideband O2 will be needed to tune properly. It would have to be a load dyno to get the VE curves dialed in, and it still wont be that great. Speed density tuning from scratch takes 40+ hours, unless you have something simlar to start with. If you are using a Gen3 ECM the VE / SD tuning is somewhat simple.

I personally don't like SD for a driver due to temp change etc.

40 plus hours seems a little ridiculous, is the factory ECU that limited with SD? I guess I was assuming he was swapping all of the original parts and sensors over to the new intake setup, if so, it can't be that far off that it won't run OK with the stock cam. But if he is ditching the MAF and still using the stock ECM I have no experience with that.

I've tuned SD using one of the original Fast XFI systems(not self learning EZ-EFI but a 16x16 VE table, the newer stuff has 32x32 tables) with less than an hour for a base tune and then just driving around for an hour with me in the passenger seat, and that was a boosted application. That was 2 hours total, from scratch, and it ran fine. Now more could be done to fine tune for power at the track or on the dyno but it ran great driving it around and trying differnt throttle applications. Newer stuff is even easier because you can at least let it self tune parts of it if not all before you tweak it yourself if needed. Holley stuff can be VE or simply lb/hr based fuel flow tables.

I assumed the factory ECU has an intake air temp correction table, along with cold start tables, coolant temp tables, etc, etc, etc, does it not? SD still compensates for weather and barometric pressure variables, it's not a dumb system, you can still run in closed loop too. I am speaking of aftermarket, I don't have any experience with the factory ECU, that's where you come in for comparison.

 

[jekquistk5]

40 plus hours seems a little ridiculous, is the factory ECU that limited with SD? I guess I was assuming he was swapping all of the original parts and sensors over to the new intake setup, if so, it can't be that far off that it won't run OK with the stock cam. But if he is ditching the MAF and still using the stock ECM I have no experience with that.

I've tuned SD using one of the original Fast XFI systems(not self learning EZ-EFI but a 16x16 VE table, the newer stuff has 32x32 tables) with less than an hour for a base tune and then just driving around for an hour with me in the passenger seat, and that was a boosted application. That was 2 hours total, from scratch, and it ran fine. Now more could be done to fine tune for power at the track or on the dyno but it ran great driving it around and trying differnt throttle applications. Newer stuff is even easier because you can at least let it self tune parts of it if not all before you tweak it yourself if needed. Holley stuff can be VE or simply lb/hr based fuel flow tables.

I assumed the factory ECU has an intake air temp correction table, along with cold start tables, coolant temp tables, etc, etc, etc, does it not? SD still compensates for weather and barometric pressure variables, it's not a dumb system, you can still run in closed loop too. I am speaking of aftermarket, I don't have any experience with the factory ECU, that's where you come in for comparison.

Yes you have to have IAT and cold start tables. 40 hours is with changing tons of variables, cam, heads, intake etc. You could have it running pretty good in several hours, but not meet every single condition possible. 40 Hours is getting everything dialed, and running as close to stoich as possible. For Ryan's case it shouldn't take much time as the factory cam and heads are still in place.

 

[folkenheath]

Yes you have to have IAT and cold start tables. 40 hours is with changing tons of variables, cam, heads, intake etc. You could have it running pretty good in several hours, but not meet every single condition possible. 40 Hours is getting everything dialed, and running as close to stoich as possible. For Ryan's case it shouldn't take much time as the factory cam and heads are still in place.

Still sounds too slow, the one I was talking about did have aftermarket heads, pistons, intake, solid roller cam, and a procharger at up to 10 psi added. I am not saying it was perfect, I am just saying you would only be able to know the difference if you measured it at the track or on the dyno. But I'm talking aftermarket EFI, not factory ECU. You can literally watch the engine run on the table in the cells(floating bubble) and change it and have the engine react in real time. Does HP Tuners allow that?

 

[jekquistk5]

Still sounds too slow, the one I was talking about did have aftermarket heads, pistons, intake, solid roller cam, and a procharger at up to 10 psi added. I am not saying it was perfect, I am just saying you would only be able to know the difference if you measured it at the track or on the dyno. But I'm talking aftermarket EFI, not factory ECU. You can literally watch the engine run on the table in the cells(floating bubble) and change it and have the engine react in real time. Does HP Tuners allow that?

Unfortunately no, you have to log averages then import to the tables as the factory ecu doesn’t have a wideband input so all changes are logged to computer then uploaded to the ecu. Either way he choses the process will be the same, just different steps. Aftermarket ecu that have widebands have that advantage. For me I don’t mind spending the time to thin a harness and tune. For someone who doesn’t want to spend the time or doesn’t understand wiring an aftermarket ecu with harness would be the better and easier choice.

 

[folkenheath]

Unfortunately no, you have to log averages then import to the tables as the factory ecu doesn’t have a wideband input so all changes are logged to computer then uploaded to the ecu. Either way he choses the process will be the same, just different steps. Aftermarket ecu that have widebands have that advantage. For me I don’t mind spending the time to thin a harness and tune. For someone who doesn’t want to spend the time or doesn’t understand wiring an aftermarket ecu with harness would be the better and easier choice.

Interesting Jesse, thank you.

So that is a significant difference, you may eventually get to the same tune with most engines, it just takes more time and work to get there vs the live modifications you can perform with the aftermarket software, which may be saved with other tasks like wiring if you have a vehicle with a factory ECU and wiring already in it.

With aftermarket EFI, you can let it tune itself, or you can tune it manually live. You can watch the engine running and the floating bubble in the fuel or timing chart, look at the live A/F ratio, and make a change in that cell, and the engine will immediately respond. I've seen John Meaney tune an engine very close in one dyno pull from a scratch tune. And with the Holley you can literally overlay a datalog onto the fuel table and play through it and watch the A/F overlay the fuel table and go through and change them, or just let the self tuning do it for you most of the time.

The Holley software actually has a custom "Learn table" if you enable self learning. It combines the two if learning is enabled (you can also limit learning to certain RPMs, throttle positions, adding fuel only, subtracting fuel only, etc). Then with the laptop you can delete the learn table or automatically combine it with and even "smooth" the main table.

I have had to make custom harnesses for the aftermarket EFI before too, when you start adding a lot of custom controls and sensors it gets to that point.

Lots of options muddermilitia, everything has it's pros and cons....

 

[jekquistk5]

Interesting Jesse, thank you.

So that is a significant difference, you may eventually get to the same tune with most engines, it just takes more time and work to get there vs the live modifications you can perform with the aftermarket software, which may be saved with other tasks like wiring if you have a vehicle with a factory ECU and wiring already in it.

With aftermarket EFI, you can let it tune itself, or you can tune it manually live. You can watch the engine running and the floating bubble in the fuel or timing chart, look at the live A/F ratio, and make a change in that cell, and the engine will immediately respond. I've seen John Meaney tune an engine very close in one dyno pull from a scratch tune. And with the Holley you can literally overlay a datalog onto the fuel table and play through it and watch the A/F overlay the fuel table and go through and change them, or just let the self tuning do it for you most of the time.

The Holley software actually has a custom "Learn table" if you enable self learning. It combines the two if learning is enabled (you can also limit learning to certain RPMs, throttle positions, adding fuel only, subtracting fuel only, etc). Then with the laptop you can delete the learn table or automatically combine it with and even "smooth" the main table.

I have had to make custom harnesses for the aftermarket EFI before too, when you start adding a lot of custom controls and sensors it gets to that point.

Lots of options muddermilitia, everything has it's pros and cons....

Exactly.. I bet hp gets there eventually as efi live does have autove which calculates ve on the fly much like the aftermarket ecu s.

 

[Chevy305]

With an intake and throttle body change, as long as you use the same size injectors it'll start and run just fine. It won't be perfect but fine to drive on. Think of it as no different than installing headers without a tune. I drove my Silverado around for a month on headers without a tune. It wasn't ideal but ran and drove just fine. Where it might be weird is if the throttle is sized significantly different than the factory one.

 

[folkenheath]

With an intake and throttle body change, as long as you use the same size injectors it'll start and run just fine. It won't be perfect but fine to drive on. Think of it as no different than installing headers without a tune. I drove my Silverado around for a month on headers without a tune. It wasn't ideal but ran and drove just fine. Where it might be weird is if the throttle is sized significantly different than the factory one.

Glenn I think he was just going to change the intake and use an adaptor to use the stock throttle body even, so he can run one of the old style single barrel rochester air cleaners. Kind of interesting, I hadn't heard of that before. My brother might go that route for his 46 Chevy Fleetmaster project.

 

[muddermilitia]

 

[jekquistk5]

Okay... Although its more upfront, buying the Holley kit or another aftermarket ecu would be easier for you to make changes in the future. IE cam, headers, heads, intake etc. It will balance out with another reflash/tuning of stock PCM. Just more upfront cost.

 

[muddermilitia]

Okay... Although its more upfront, buying the Holley kit or another aftermarket ecu would be easier for you to make changes in the future. IE cam, headers, heads, intake etc. It will balance out with another reflash/tuning of stock PCM. Just more upfront cost.

That's what I'm leaning towards now. I'll live with the ugly stock intake for a little bit.

CPP exhaust manifolds arrived last weekend along with my trans dipstick and fuel sending unit. Gas tank will be here today. I'm hopping to get the trans unbolted and removed and get the 4l60 flexplate off tonight. The guy I bought the motor and trans from said he has a 4l80e flexplate with the spacer that he will give me. So I'm gonna give him the 4l60e flexplate in return. if anybody is looking for an LS motor or parts or a trans to go behind it and you live in the chicagoland area, let me know. I got the guy for you

 

[muddermilitia]

Ok back to work.

Got the correct flex plate and spacer. So put that on and put the transmission back in. I left something on the flexplate before I put the trans in



I put on the CPP LS conversion manifolds. They fit like a dream.





Dad and I went to the junkyard last Friday and got a bench seat from a 88-98 Chevy truck. It fits fantastically in this cab. I still need to drill 4 holes to mount it, but I set it inside yesterday just to see how it looked.



We also grabbed a steering shaft from a 96 XJ Cherokee. It fits the gearbox of course but I think it will be too short. We will have to cut it and lengthen it.



Then yesterday I worked on cutting up the cab on the truck I originally bought. I'm gonna sell the pieces to people to use for patching their cabs. Already have a potential buyer for the cab back wall and floor section.

 

[muddermilitia]

No truck updates except I sold off the back cab wall and floor from the parts truck.

In the mean time my dad has been helping me get my new (to me) air compressor set up in my cellar beneath my garage. Yes, we moved this down a set of stairs. The electric is almost finished. Then need to run the air line upstairs to the garage. She's an 80 Gallon.



I have also been trying to learn custom painting. I've worked on this practice panel off and on for the last few weeks. I have only used store bought aerosol paint for now. I eventually will work my way up to a spray gun (never used one before)




And some practice on another panel last night



And yes, some of the tape edges suck. I have learned not to cheap out on the fine line tape. Bite the bullet and buy the $17 rolls....

Oh and these pics were all before wet sanding and polishing

 

[muddybuddy]

Very cool, going to be a sweet truck!

 

[muddermilitia]

Ive been busy working on this off and on the last 2 weeks. I painted this for my girlfriends birthday. The logo in the middle is her side business' logo. @Deuling printed the logo in vinyl for me. It's all painted from aerosol cans. I still need to wet sand it.



Now that the paint project is practically finished, I can get back to the Apache.

I got a tilt column for it and started looking at how I will mount it.

I also painted the belt tensioner and took the alternator to my local alternator rebuilder. He gave me an extra front and back halves of the alternator case so I could paint them and then he rebuilt the internals.
I got a good amount of OT at work earlier this month so I decided to treat myself. @folkenheath set me up with an Edelbrock intake manifold and fuel rails. If you need edelbrock parts, give him a shout.



I also got a new battery tray and painted that too. I'll install that next week and get back to installing the steering column.

 

[Smokinthehippies]

The more I see it the more I like that green on the block.

 

[muddermilitia]

I'm gonna try and make (or have someone local) make an adapter to put my DBW throttle body on this intake like so:



Also I have been working on installing the steering column. Its a universal 30" long tilt column from CPP. I'm using the lower mount from the EZ-Chassis swap kit. The dash mount is just something I rigged up temporarily. The steering wheel is a Mooneyes metalflake green, picked that up from a swap meet in October

 

[muddermilitia]

Holidays slowed me down. I was gonna use an XJ steering shaft but I ended up ruining the one I had so I ordered a Borgeson shaft with CPP I joints. Get the parts and realized 1 of the joints I ordered was the wrong one. But CPP had closed for end of the year inventory and it took me 3 weeks to get it.. Also I didnt care for the upper steering column mount I had so I got a different one.





Messed around with the steering shaft a little yesterday. I need to shorten it a little bit.


It just barely clears the control arm.





I got a new radiator last week. I went with a 55-59 chevy truck LS swap radiator from Superior radiator out of Michigan. The fan and shroud stick out farther than I thought they would. I need to trim some of the front frame crossmember to allow the radiator to drop down enough. But you can see clearance is extremely tight. I might have to change to dual fans.



I pulled all the front sheetmetal off tonight so tomorrow I work on trimming that crossmember as well as cut off the front of the frame horns so they will clear the bumper.



Also last week I started looking into the gas tank situation. I just picked up a pair of K5 gas tank frame crossmember that I will use to fit this tank to the C10 frame.

 

[muddermilitia]

Just showing it off with the garage door open. It's a shame to cover all this up with sheet metal

 

[Chevy305]

Just do what @Deuling does and drive around without the hood