Help with a debate on 14 Bolt SF vs. FF

[NEK5]

it happened to a buddy of mine....he had a govbomb in it tho

happened to me...blew the front too

 

[mrk5]

How about a rear D60FF. That would be a very good compromise between strength and ground clearance.

Or even one of those Sterling 10.5s. A mechanic I use locally is putting one in a Jeep Commando project, and it's beefy and still maintains good ground clearance.

 

[MuddinManny]

Considering this is ColoradoK5.com, this is one of the funniest lines I've read on here in a long time.

Why is this the funniest lines you've read?

 

[muddybuddy]

Why is this the funniest lines you've read?

cuz everyone and their mother run a 14bff, weither they need it or not, its just the cool thing to do

 

[loafer]

To me, this is a much more logical thought process than the origional post:

To me it is simply an 8-lug vs. 6 lug issue. If he is trying to choose between an 8 lug 14bsf and a 14bff then it is a no-brainer: 14bff. OTOH if he wants to stay 6-lug (which means he will NEVER go bigger than 37's) then a 14bsf is the only sensible choice. A 14bsf will handle bigger than 37's, but the 10b/D44 front wont, so if he plans to go really big he had best get the 14bff and be prepared to do a D60 in the future. But then, you already know that

I chose the 14bsf for the follwoing reasons:

- 6 lug capabilty
- less weight
- better ground clearance
- future mods will not include a D6o because I legally can not run anything larger than 33's, though I can get away with 35's.

 

[sandawgk5]

I agree there is nothing wrong with a 14SF. However desuading a guy from a 14FF with ground clearance as the only selling point presented I feel is bogus. Like I stated I used a 14FF as it was cheaper in the long run to use it as I have plans for 42s or bigger. I know alot of the AZ guys run 10 and 12 bolts but correct me if Im wrong you guys general have 37s or smaller. Stoopid argument really now that I look back on it. If I had a 14SF I would have built that and run it but I didnt since I was buying an axle I bought a FF.

I guess that is what it comes down to. If he has a 14SF I would use that. If he has to purchase an axle I would go 14FF or Dana 70 that is just me.

Ira

 

[marv_springer]

The issue here is that giving bad, self centered information to youngsters in this hobby is NOT the right thing to do.

Manny,

It is funny to me for this reason....

Have you stopped to consider that this might be just what you're doing.

I know I'm w/ a minority here... but here goes anyway.

The 14FF is a beefy piece. Does everybody need one? I think not. The general sentiment on this board is that you are a stupid noob rookie if you don't have a D60/14FF combo under your truck. Everybody tends to follow this w/out question.... and many times it seems that nobody's thinking about what they really need - they are just gettin' what's deemed "cool" by the crowd.

And while I don't criticize people for swapping in 1 ton axles, I sometimes tire from the notion that you can't drive off the pavement w/out them. For many of us, wheeling is more of a "balance" of what you can do w/ what you've got. This tests the driver, and illustrates that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Now, I realize that your thing is mud. I try my best to stay away from the mud, and I tend to like rocks and sand more. But suffice it to say that I've done alot of wheelin'.... and have yet to run a D60 Front or 14b Rear under any rig I've wheeled. Don't misunderstand me.... I'm not saying that everybody should wheel 1/2 ton axles. I am saying that you shouldn't always "point and giggle" when you see a rig on 1/2 tons. You just might be chasing it up the hill....!

Respectfully,

Marv

 

[MuddinManny]

I agree there is nothing wrong with a 14SF. However desuading a guy from a 14FF with ground clearance as the only selling point presented I feel is bogus. Like I stated I used a 14FF as it was cheaper in the long run to use it as I have plans for 42s or bigger. I know alot of the AZ guys run 10 and 12 bolts but correct me if Im wrong you guys general have 37s or smaller. Stoopid argument really now that I look back on it. If I had a 14SF I would have built that and run it but I didnt since I was buying an axle I bought a FF.

I guess that is what it comes down to. If he has a 14SF I would use that. If he has to purchase an axle I would go 14FF or Dana 70 that is just me.

Ira

Hey Guys,

This was meant to be a simple post just to help stop a fellow wheeler from possibly making a poor business decision.

• He has 10 Bolts-front and rear. He wants to upgrade to a D60/14BFF combo, to run 35's, possibly larger down the road.

• Along come a couple of crawlers who tell him that a 14BFF is no good because he will lose ground clearance. That was the whole of their argument.

• They spun the story enough to make this young guy change his whole game plan, drop down to 33's and want to get a 14SF, just for ground clearance sake, which isn't what he truly wants. They intimidated him into a decision based on their wants, not his needs.

There is nothing wrong with a 14BSF axle. It has it's purposes, but if you could get a FF for the same price as a SF, the advantages of a FF far outweight a lousy 1" of clearance, especially in the MUD.

Why is this so difficult to get? It's not a stupid argument. It's just trying to get the facts straight so someone can make an educated decision, not one based on complete BS.

Guess I'm just having a bad day. I'm not trying to rip into my K5 family. Sorry guys, I just hate seeing people mislead.

Manny

 

[MuddinManny]

Manny,

It is funny to me for this reason....

Have you stopped to consider that this might be just what you're doing.

I know I'm w/ a minority here... but here goes anyway.

The 14FF is a beefy piece. Does everybody need one? I think not. The general sentiment on this board is that you are a stupid noob rookie if you don't have a D60/14FF combo under your truck. Everybody tends to follow this w/out question.... and many times it seems that nobody's thinking about what they really need - they are just gettin' what's deemed "cool" by the crowd.

And while I don't criticize people for swapping in 1 ton axles, I sometimes tire from the notion that you can't drive off the pavement w/out them. For many of us, wheeling is more of a "balance" of what you can do w/ what you've got. This tests the driver, and illustrates that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Now, I realize that your thing is mud. I try my best to stay away from the mud, and I tend to like rocks and sand more. But suffice it to say that I've done alot of wheelin'.... and have yet to run a D60 Front or 14b Rear under any rig I've wheeled. Don't misunderstand me.... I'm not saying that everybody should wheel 1/2 ton axles. I am saying that you shouldn't always "point and giggle" when you see a rig on 1/2 tons. You just might be chasing it up the hill....!

Respectfully,

Marv

Hey Marv,

I hear ya. I dont have an issue with 10 Bolts, nor will I laugh at them. I have them right now, and chose to switch out mainly because of the horsepower of my new 383 and the 39 TSL's. Yes I do MUD so the 1 ton drivetrain was really the only good choice for me. But what's good for me, might not necessarily be good for another. I've always felt that way.

As far as my friend goes, I didn't tell him to get the 14 Bolt FF. I advised him of all the + and the -'s of each axle. He already made the decision to change out the 10 bolts one his own. That was part of his original plan. Yes, I agree you can build 10 Bolts strong enough to handle 35/37 inch tires and run the snot out of them without issue. In fact, that's what he's gonna do. That's what his budget allows him, and I FULLY SUPPORT HIS POSITION! I support it even knowing that that very same combo for others has been a disaster, poppin' axles and diff's, left and right.

All I'm saying is this...as veteran/experienced wheelers who've "been there, broke that", we should just lay out the benny's and negatives of each option and let the person ask questions, and choose for themselves rather than impress our own personal biased view points and cause them to make decisions that go against what they originally were trying to do, or don't fit their financial profile. There are usually mutiple paths to the same destination. Which one works best is ultimately a persons' decision.

I'm just mad because my friend was mislead due to ground clearance scare tactics. Nothing more.

Thanks! I appreciate your explanation.

Manny

 

[bajaviking]

Please remember to tell this young friend of yours that he will have to buy new wheels, he will have to spend money on getting the front converted to 8-lug,he will have to spend money to get his e-brake working, after doing all that the 14 bolt FF is not that cheap anymore plus it's a lot more time to do the work.

I keep my rig as light as possible and run 35" tires with a 10B front(locker) and 14bSF(welded) in the rear and I beat the snot out of it in the rocks, sand, trails, everything. I have broken the front shafts a couple of times but never the rear. If I was going to go bigger I would probably want to go 14BFF but then I would also want to go Dana 60 and with that bigger tires, gears, 8 lug wheels and who knows what else and then all of sudden we are talking mucho money.

Each to his own but for me it was easier to just throw a 14 bolt SF in it and be done with it. You don't need 44" boggers and 1 ton axles to have fun.

 

[MuddinManny]

I would go with a 14FF as they are cheaper to find and cheaper to build. Sit down with him and give him the breakdown of rebuilding, regear, and locker. That and the selections for a 14FF are better ease of gear setup. That does not even get into the strength differences. I personally feel it is a waste of money to not use a 14FF unless he already has the other axle and it is setup the way he needs it and it is ready to bolt in.

Ira

I did that exact thing Ira. He wanted proof because the crawlers brow beat him into fearing that 1-2" difference. The proof is meant to be sought in this post. However, somehow, it's gotten twisted around to make me out to be the villian and the one twisting his arm to get a 14FF. Not so! I just want him to get the best bang for the buck. How? By presenting him with the best info I know, to let him make the educated decision. I'm not paying for the axle-HE IS!

Manny

I need a beer

 

[MuddinManny]

Please remember to tell this young friend of yours that he will have to buy new wheels, he will have to spend money on getting the front converted to 8-lug,he will have to spend money to get his e-brake working, after doing all that the 14 bolt FF is not that cheap anymore plus it's a lot more time to do the work.

I keep my rig as light as possible and run 35" tires with a 10B front(locker) and 14bSF(welded) in the rear and I beat the snot out of it in the rocks, sand, trails, everything. I have broken the front shafts a couple of times but never the rear. If I was going to go bigger I would probably want to go 14BFF but then I would also want to go Dana 60 and with that bigger tires, gears, 8 lug wheels and who knows what else and then all of sudden we are talking mucho money.

Each to his own but for me it was easier to just throw a 14 bolt SF in it and be done with it. You don't need 44" boggers and 1 ton axles to have fun.

My bad, he's already converting his front to 8 lug, has the parts, and already has the wheels. As far as the e-brake is concerned, as long as he has the 14 bolt cables, it should be a direct bolt up. That is what I have read here in CK5. If wrong, please correct me. I don't want to mislead him.

Agreed...I've had fun from 31's to 38's. Now I'm going to 39's and see no point in 44's for me. Each time I had great fun!

Manny

 

[sandawgk5]

Please remember to tell this young friend of yours that he will have to buy new wheels, he will have to spend money on getting the front converted to 8-lug,he will have to spend money to get his e-brake working, after doing all that the 14 bolt FF is not that cheap anymore plus it's a lot more time to do the work.

I keep my rig as light as possible and run 35" tires with a 10B front(locker) and 14bSF(welded) in the rear and I beat the snot out of it in the rocks, sand, trails, everything. I have broken the front shafts a couple of times but never the rear. If I was going to go bigger I would probably want to go 14BFF but then I would also want to go Dana 60 and with that bigger tires, gears, 8 lug wheels and who knows what else and then all of sudden we are talking mucho money.

Each to his own but for me it was easier to just throw a 14 bolt SF in it and be done with it. You don't need 44" boggers and 1 ton axles to have fun.

His original plans where to go Dana60 and 14FF. The way I read it is he is still going to have a Dana 60 front but they convinced him to go with a 14SF solely for ground clearance.

Ira

 

[sandawgk5]

Damn Im too late.

As for the ebrake as long as his axle is from a late style the cables are the same. I have backing plates and cables from an 84 and mine bolted right up to my K5 primary cable. If I would have been picking I could have got the axle with the correct style ebrake cable.

Ira

 

[bajaviking]

My bad, he's already converting his front to 8 lug, has the parts, and already has the wheels. As far as the e-brake is concerned, as long as he has the 14 bolt cables, it should be a direct bolt up. That is what I have read here in CK5. If wrong, please correct me. I don't want to mislead him.

Agreed...I've had fun from 31's to 38's. Now I'm going to 39's and see no point in 44's for me. Each time I had great fun!

Manny

Well if he already has the 8 lug wheels wheels and parts for the front I have to agree with the 14BFF.

 

[sandawgk5]

If he is indeed putting a Dana 60 in the front I really do not see the reason to put a SF axle in the rear, period. If ground clearance is a concern use a Dana 70. More ground clearance than a 14FF and stronger.

Ira

 

[beater_k20]

There is nothing wrong with a 14BSF axle. It has it's purposes, but if you could get a FF for the same price as a SF, the advantages of a FF far outweight a lousy 1" of clearance, especially in the MUD.

Manny, have you ever actually had a truck that was worth its scrap price in the mud? less weight, and more ground clearance are EVERYTHING in the mud.

 

[Confedneck79K30]

thats like all the people in this town on 44s with half ton chebby stuff.... but im gonna run 38s and break one tons, just do it right,...

 

[BURBicon]

14bff

I'm po' Y trash, I recommend the 14bff for one reason. The Detroits are cheap and you can install them in about an hour. Shave that sucker before you bolt it on and you'll never look back.

 

[MuddinManny]

Manny, have you ever actually had a truck that was worth its scrap price in the mud? less weight, and more ground clearance are EVERYTHING in the mud.

Beater, I've had 4 trucks under my belt that I've mudded:

1983 Toyota 4x4 DLX
1984 Toyota 4x4 4Runner DLX
1989 Toyota 4x4 V6 X-tra DLX
2002 Toyota Tacoma 4x4 SR5 Off-Road Package

I've played in mud from stock to 8" of lift, 29's to 35's, and all I know is this: Yeah, it's important to have ground clearance. Getting the body and frame up are what you wanna do. Higher the better, so it creates less drag in the mud when you start to bog down. Toyota's are infamous for their light weight. So there never has been a concern there. That's why they go a little farther and get into more trouble! Even so, to a full-size, 1-2" of a lip on a 14Bolt isn't going to make or break you in the MUD. I don't care how you cut it, slice it, or jam it. Even in ruts, if you bottom out on the 14 Bolt chances are the ruts are too deep for your tire or close to the depth to begin with. More than likely you'll lose traction anyway. Every situation is different, and if there is one thing I know about mud, it's anything but consistent.

When you're building a full-size rig for mud, I have found that there are compromises that need to be made. Need strength up front, go Dana 60 for big meats and high horses, but the trade off is the weight. Same with the 14 Bolt. Dude, all I know is that building a mud truck is more about balancing the big three: Size, Weight, Strength, than just saying less weight and ground clearance. Ain't gonna happen, at least not in a plain jane, non-truggied, even if you cut the fenders, full size, runnin' 35-37's and up.

JMHO...later on it may change a bit as this is my first full size. But from everything I have read, nope, nada....I'll let the rock crawlers nickel and dime, let the bling bling crowd follow; the 14 Bolt lip and shed a little extra inch. I'll take the beef, thank you.

Manny