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Intrested in soft tops for K5's? looking into Manufacturing them. update post 118

When STC went out of business, I looked into this some. And again when Bestop stopped.
THe old man at STC wanted wayyyy to much money for his business, but it was for sale, all the patterns and sources and whatnot.
Way too much.
My mother-in-law used to sew seats for a OEM seat supplier, she knows how to sew heavy stuff, I looked into creating a business model to create the templates, small shop to sew in, creating the bracketry and whatnot, starting very small and working up (The full-size ford bronco and older ramcharger guys need tops too!) . It's not as simple as it sounds or on first look. There's alot of little things that is what makes a top a good top.

The first thing I looked at was, why did Bestop and STC stop making them.
Well, this one is not so detrimental. STC seemed to go out of business because the old-guy wanted to retire, from what I can tell, the lawsuit (which is why STC changed from Kayline) and something with his son not wanting the business or something, it seemed he went out of business because of reasons other than pure lack of sales.

Bestop seemed to stop making them because, and this is purely my opinion from research done by me, they are a huge giant company that seems to be headed in another direction. They now make seats, consoles, lots of other things besides tops (I wouldn't be surprised to see them change their name), they deal with high volume stuff they can sell alot of, which usally means late model vehicles only. Now, that said, It would not surprise me one bit to see them make a run of the K5 tops again, they still have their pattern for it, I'm sure if things got slow one week, they might make a run and make a few hundred of them again. WHen I inquired via eMail, a sales tech used very careful wording in the response, "we are not making these tops *right now*". You wouldn't say that unless you perhaps planned to make a run of them again, if it makes sense. Anyhow, so yes and no, they stopped selling because of low volume, but not that they couldn't sell any of them, just not to the par of most of the products this company sells.

Ok, so well, sales might not be so much of a problem. So...moving on, parts. If you look at what comes in an STC fastrac kit, there's lots of little pieces and stuff. Some of it is cheap fab (like the bows). Some of it is stock metal. For the stock metal, for some of the pieces, you need to buy high volumes to get some of the goofy c-channels and whatnot that they are. You not going to be able to buy a couple 20' sticks of that special thin c-channel I found. Min order on some of those pieces of metal was 10000'.
You'll need to make some jigs to perform the metals to the body, for in the case of the windshield frame.

I think the biggest factor in the whole deal is what people want and expect from it.
Everyone seems to want something different. I want a skyler type. I want a fastrac, I want a simple snap, I want a heavy can-back style so I can put stuff on top, I want this, I want a bikni. Everyone has their opinions on what they want, as any normal consumer would. One type and style doesn't seem to appeal to the masses. You have to factor than in when trying to create a business for it.
Now, when you factor in costs of material, time spent to reserach at least 2 different styles, creating those patterns, time to spend fabbing all the little pieces, learning curve, etc..in conclusion, at volumes of less than 500/year, which in all likelyhood this would be, I couldn't sell them for less than $1200, which is more than most people are willing to pay for a soft top. It was starting to look like it was going to be harder than previously thought. Now are there things one can do to reduce costs, I'm sure, but the inital figures wern't adding up.

I'm not saying it can't be done. I'd love to see it done. I'm more just sharing my input on the subject here from my own research. From the research I did, making a business out of it, it was going to be a tough go. YOu seem to have a different approach than I do with the one run, I'm taking orders up front, who will buy for sure type of approach, so mabey that is a better way to go.

Oh, BTW, if your going to utilize the existing rear window, you'll need some pretty stout framing to support that thing in its upright position (you have to think worst case where the window shouldn't break, like a sudden stop where no other vehicle damage would occur, there's alot of force at the top of that thing in a sudden panic stop situation). The other thing one might worry about, is alot of peoples K5's don't have a working rear window, some remove those components all together to save weight, along with a soft top, so keep that in mind.


Thank you very much for this kind of feed back. I totally appreciate it a ton. This is the kind of stuff I will have to overcome to have this work. I have some good ideas allready, but I cant think of everything, hence the reason I inquire with you guys on this. No better experts in my openion.

All I can say is I will give it my best shot. It will either work or it wont. I think my experience in maching tooling and knowing materials and how to fab will help, I hope. I want to do this "on a budget" but with a good quality product in the end. Exactly the reason for the larger bow tubing I want to use, among other improovements I have come up with, along with the suggestions and ideas I have recieved here aswell.
 
I have a company who knows the Kayline/STC story and actually tried to have a relationship and build tops for them but found it too difficult to deal with them. The owner was actually very willing and excited in developing a top for the K5's and Bronco's as well. He said he has had a bunch of intrest in tops for these rigs but he did not want to do a scratch prototype build for one. Since I have a pattern and STC is out of bussiness he is happy to work with me on this.

I need to get to work, Need to install the top on my rig and document changes that need to be made per suggestions made here from you guys and my ideas too. Take pictures of areas in question, then ship the top to him to disect for pattern measurments and to see of there is any items sewn in the top that might need to be manufactured. If its just material it would be easy for the most.

He agreed on my material choice, said that the Jeep material is a quality top material. He likes what I had to say about my ideas for a simplified build of these tops. Said I didn't have to order tops in huge quantity either once we develope a good pattern.

Needless to say, thats good news for forward progress on the endover. One step at a time.
 
Nice! Yeah, one step at a time.

When I talked with the guy at STC, it was almost as if he really didn't want to sell the buisness. Kayline used to be huge in the 70's and 80's, they even had a couple OEM contracts for certain convertibles. I think the emotional factor of once being very successfull and now struggling to keep it alive, was too much for him.
 
From what 73k5 said: I would just make one type of top for each generation of blazer in the black denim material and have every top be the same. Less headache and fewer problems in the long run. In the beginning I wouldn't worry about special features and custom crap. Just give us a top that is reasonably priced, somewhat easy to install, well build and strong, folds easily and the windows zip out easily. Damn-it my head is getting sun burned, hurry up already.
Hoby
 
I think Kert @ DIY4X is a prime example of what we on CK5 love. Great product, at a great price, with great craftsmanship. This being said I believe if you can develop a top that is built strong w/ great quality but yet affordable, it would sell like hotcakes. Now saving cost on finishing expenses like painting the metal, making welds super clean, and what not, are things I believe you could leave out to reduce the price for the consumer. Those are things we can do. The simple things like that I believe are what could get you under your $800. But a strong, durable, well-made product I think would be the backbone of a top I want to buy
 
Just a few remarks of caution, I'm the naysayer old guy, after all :D (and I really miss the flipoff smilie):

DIY4X products are at a price level that's what, ten-fold lower than the price of a soft top? No argument on DIY4X quality - and I'm an ORD guy anyways...- but I think this is not a valid comparison. The pain level for that first purchase is simply higher - something for rnd2 to consider.

Soft tops are not a gotta-have-it product, since they only add limited functionality. It's a vanity thing, as you actually save more weight by having no top, and no tailgate, and bringing your snowmobile gear and goggles just in case, rah rah... but I digress. Nothing wrong with making/selling a 'vanity' product. Heck, half the US economy is built on that. But reality is that there was always a lot of interest in soft tops on this site, and also a lot of IwouldreallyreallylikeasofttopbutrightnowIdon'thavethemoneymaybenextyearewhenIgetmytaxrefund... So, methinks real $$$-in-hand interest might be difficult to gauge... maybe a $100 retainer strategy might work in producing/selling new soft tops... just a thought.

Personally, I've checked out soft tops every once in a while, and I've always been reluctant. While I liked the CanBacks, I didn't feel like spending $1200 on something that I might want, but don't really need. Even at around $600-ish, the STC or Bestop vinyl tops were around for many years, but they already looked awfully saggy on the company website. I figured it'll only get worse in the Arizona sun. Based on the number of soft top K5s I've seen, I can't help thinking that the sales volume wasn't very high, and the 'selling like hotcakes' may not apply. And I won't put up with dysfunctional nonsense like not being able to open the tailgate w/o undoing the top - at least not on my K5 (I've got enough of that on my wife's FJ40...).

I guess I'm the reluctant customer who has the money in hand but is not convinced about the products that money would buy. $1200 for a CanBack (the STC stuff didn't look good re quality and functionality...) can buy a lot of 'wheeling trips...

Last tidbit: Black color in the Southwest sun is going to soak up a lot of heat. It's one of the reasons we haven't replaced the soft top on the FJ40, but patched it to get a few years out of it.



Thanks man, I welcome this kind of feedback to keep my sight clear as to what Im potentially getting myself into. Your right, its not a got-a-have product, But it is a product that people are interested in. There convertables, Everybody like convertables. You have to have a soft top to go topless :D.

Its also a product that does have a shelf life. At first I might sell a bunch, then it more then likely will taper off in sales, to maybe just one a month. Before then its time to get out. Im aware of this sinario. But, there are still alot of Blazers out there, and Bronco's. Its still early in the research and development stage. As said before, I may find out its just not profitable to even have a go at it. Im willing to make an attempt at it atleast.

If it works out cool! IF it does'nt, I tried, and there is no shame in that.
 
Everyone is making good points. But I will say that I believe that there are more people out there that have the "I need a top" than the "I want a top". The theory of the top not being a "gotta have it", I believe, is false. there are a lot of guys that don't like to have their hard tops on most of the year but don't have access to a quality soft top and would do damn near anything to get their hands on a bikini or full soft top. The hardcore trail rigs won't spend a lot on a quality soft top but most of us are not that hard core wheelers and need some type of weather protection because we are the weekend warrior wheeler. Just my $.02.
Hoby
 
I want one cuz my AC don't work so great :D I'd rather have the top down breeze during the summer down here where it's balls hot
 
Everyone is making good points. But I will say that I believe that there are more people out there that have the "I need a top" than the "I want a top". The theory of the top not being a "gotta have it", I believe, is false. there are a lot of guys that don't like to have their hard tops on most of the year but don't have access to a quality soft top and would do damn near anything to get their hands on a bikini or full soft top. The hardcore trail rigs won't spend a lot on a quality soft top but most of us are not that hard core wheelers and need some type of weather protection because we are the weekend warrior wheeler. Just my $.02.
Hoby
I have to agree here. The only reason I want one is I like having the top off during the spring and summer months, but I have my kids that shouldn't have to be exposed to the sun all summer long. The soft top allows me to have the windows out, giving full open feel, while still keeping the sun off the kids.

I can still take it completely down when I want, and I don't have to fight to lift the heavy hardtop back on when it rains.
 
Keep the feedback coming guys. It is very appreciated. Its just fuel to the fire to make me feel good about doing these. I have not even posted this ANYWHERE else.......yet. This is my home, so I care about what you guys here at CK5 have to say first and formost.
 
i wanted to lope the top off my '80 to make a full 'vert, but i rode around w/ a friend the other day in his convertable car, and i think i convinced myself to leave my 1/2 top on my k5, if i have the 1/2 top off and tube doors, i believe i would be happier than having a full 'vert, altho they are so cool!
 
i wanted to lope the top off my '80 to make a full 'vert, but i rode around w/ a friend the other day in his convertable car, and i think i convinced myself to leave my 1/2 top on my k5, if i have the 1/2 top off and tube doors, i believe i would be happier than having a full 'vert, altho they are so cool!


your crazy..

Full tops rock
532757_591_full.jpg
 
Just to put it in perspective, for about $800 you could buy....

A used D60
An ARB with compressor
A brand name winch
A good welder

Having said that it is still cheaper than...

An Atlas
A decent crate motor
a new set of wheels and tires
A Dynatrac axle

For some people that other stuff will be a priority, for others a soft top will.

Those numbers are just to illustrate the choices we CK5'ers face with our limited $$$. Nobody needs to chime in bragging about how they found a pristine D60 for $15 and a case of beer. :doah:
 
Dont have any plans to do that. Full tops are HOPEFULLY gonna be my gig.
Seriously, the ultimate design lets you run a full top or a Skyler-type tonneau cover on the same mounting system. The mounting system installs once, using the factory hard-top holes. Then you have the flexibility to buy one top later and then go between the two top styles whenever you want. This probably just applies to the 76+ models, though.

And how will you eliminate drilling on the tailgate?
 
Seriously, the ultimate design lets you run a full top or a Skyler-type tonneau cover on the same mounting system. The mounting system installs once, using the factory hard-top holes. Then you have the flexibility to buy one top later and then go between the two top styles whenever you want. This probably just applies to the 76+ models, though.

And how will you eliminate drilling on the tailgate?


Thats going to be a challenge, but I have some ideas. Its something I will tackle. I think for simplicity, when the soft top is on the tailgate window should be down. Just use the soft top rear pannel with the window in it to keep the weather out. Having a channel for the widow to roll up in to probably is not practical. It will add cost to the top, I dont want this.

My bud has a good idea on how to capture the window if it rattles while in the down posistion, I could use this to mount the channel to to hold the rear pannel to the tailgate. I want to use the Jeep style channel to attach the pannels to the truck. Preferably no snaps. Unless you guys prefer snaps? I just think they can pull thru the top over time. I like the plastic interlocking channel on the jeep tops.
 
x2, and and I also think it is best to assume the tailgate window will be down when the soft top is on. You don't want to design it in a way that would prevent people from saving even more weight by switching to a pickup tailgate.
 
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