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Lets talk about Echobit...

All I can say is "wow, guys!". Almost sounds like more than I want to swallow. I'm gonna check into the LLC info around here and see what my atty. says about it.

As far as using the Echobit name again, forget it. As explained above, I agree it would be best to leave that name behind. I have on my Car Quest account for a name "Smoky Hill Off Road" as the infamous Smoky Hill river runs thru town. Just sounded cool I guess. I think I could stick with that name and add the LLC after it.

Smoky Hill Off Road, LLC

What do you guys think?
 
SHO flip , or Smoky Hill flip sounds kinda nice . When someone asks , you say I have the " S-H-O" flip kit ,or the "Smoky Hill" flip kit . It can be abbreviated rather well in many ways :thumb:
 
Or, SHOR Flip, if you add the Road as one word. I don't know, keep the ideas coming.

I made one bracket side today. Its the outer bracket and I have 3 mounting holes to choose from. Will get a pic up later.
 
Talk to your lawyer. cause even though you get an LLC dosnt mean that you are completely protected. i know that my lawyer told me that there are ways to still go after peoples personall stuff even thought they have an LLC. That advice should be reserved for lawyers. Not us. We can help you with design and tech stuff. alot of us dont know enough about LLC to give advice , myself included. i do know that i am a sole properiter and that my lawyer advised me against becoming an LLC. Dont worry my personal assets are protected.
 
x2 on the lawyer. I hate to recomend that somebody go see one of those bloodsuckers, but the way we have set up our laws, it is the price you pay for doing business. No matter how you set it up; proprietor, LLC, corporation, they can still sue you for your personal assets if you don't do it right. Another thing to think about if you go the proprietor route, is getting an insurance policy to cover you if you get sued. You may find that way is cheaper and less of a hassle than doing an LLC or corp, but I really have no idea if it will be or not.
 
I'm curious why you don't just produce a batch and then sell.

The overhead is minimal, no wait times, which promotes impulse buying :D and it would still give you breathing space to keep up with fabwork.

I'm curious what is LLC? I get the gist, but what does it actually stand for?
 
Im not an attorney or an accountant, that said it really depends on the state you live in for the LLC. I own a business & use the LLC here (in Utah). I gotta say the Sole propertership is known to be the weakest possible entity here in Utah. Since you are solely responsible all liability is on you. Im sure your attorney knows whats up, I don't know any businessowners that use them. LLC's & C-corps are what most people use. It just depends on what your states case law is (how courts have ruled on it in the past). I think checking with a smart attorney is your best bet. I consult my attorney & my accountant when I have questions. Good Luck.:thumb:
 
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thatK30guy said:
All of these replies are the little things that add up and make me afraid to tackle something like this flip job. Namely because I don't ever want to leave this site and never want to create hardships with anyone here. Honestly, I'm not real sure or positive I want to make a bunch of these brackets to sell for the world. Maybe just make enough to sell to the members here only. Period. If someone else on another board don't like me making them everyone here and he wants some, tough luck. I don't know. Just something to think about. I'm just more afraid of losing you guys than I am customers.
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Wes,

I have thought for a long time about bringing back the Echobit flip as a viable product...

I actually own one of the original Echobit flips (never installed, new in the box!)... just so that I'd have a clear understanding of what he was producing for the money. I suspect I'm the only person on the planet who still has one in that condition :thinking: :D

The problem I keep coming back to is not about the liability (though that certainly needs to be addressed)....it's the reality of cost vs benefit on an item like this.

Even if you can get "free" time on a shop machine (the boss is eventually going to notice how much material you're running through HIS tools, BTW)...you still have materials and your own time to create those parts. There's welding, hand finishing, painting and then the really tedious aspects of answering online questions, emails, packing boxes and printing shipping labels. Then you need to make those trips to the USPS to get them shipped.

Factoring in all those hours, and the likely price of such a simple item (probably less than $100 shipped)......the compensation for your time is not really that impressive. Especially since you're taking all the risk up front with materials and labor costs, then hoping for a good result.

Adding insult to injury, there are inevitably going to be complaints from customers who can't figure out how to install it...or don't like it for some irrational reason. People will insist that you create this product and claim that they have "cash in hand"....but mysteriously can't be found again once the first batch is built and ready to go.


I've thought about this idea for a few years now....but I'll agree with the sentiment that if you're going to start a fabrication business, you'd better be willing to jump in ALL THE WAY and commit yourself to it. The internet is full of stories about people with "a MIG and a dream" who started a company to be just like those rich guys on television who build cool stuff.... then disappeared.



:usaflag:
 
Making a small batch would certainly help you figure out the cost/profit portion, but as mentioned, I think a lot of people don't really look at the "hidden" cost (your time, plus anything that might crop up like tools, etc) and that kind of sneaks up on them when they start production.

Yes, it's a $100 piece, but if your time is worth $20/hour, (just making that price up, it's really on you, how much is your time worth?) and each piece takes an hour or two to finish, X dollars for raw material, any tool or energy costs added, plus another hour or two for taking the order, fielding questions, (I know vendors must get tons of email, and that's part of ebing a good business, being responsive) getting the piece boxed up, dealing with the payment, and getting the item to USPS, in the above situation you are making at worst $20/piece, at best $40.

I think using what you make at work as a benchmark for what your off-time is worth is pretty fair. If you are working outside of the office, you are still working, so IF you were able to simply stay at the office those extra hours making normal pay, instead of working on your own "business", what would your income be?

This is where you see a lot of people complaining about the price of products that are in a niche market. Yes, the materials only cost X dollars, but the time an individual has to invest in getting that part from raw material to your door step has to be worth something, or they wouldn't be selling a product. And not saying you should, but double the cost of the shackle flip. Is that easier to justify the potential risk and hassle? I suspect you'll find that most of the successful businesses on here have a pretty nice profit margin on their pieces, but once all the costs that are transparent to the consumer are factored in, it's not as large as it would appear on the surface.

Maybe most people can't justify their bought not built this way, but most people can make anything within reason, and building things is fun, but if I am on a timeline, (and there is ALWAYS something else I can be doing) and my time is valuable, is the product good enough that I couldn't build it better, and can't make it for substantially less money?
 
The last couple of posts bring up some very good points.

That 'flip' is a specialty product in that it doesn't require dropping the tank. It truly is as bolt on a mod as you can get. And there is a segment of society that WANTS that and will PAY for that. CK5 is known as a 'built not bought' culture out of neccessity, if there was aftermarket support for our rigs like there is for Heeps there would be a ton of cash being spent.

My point is price them high! If someone wants them they'll find the cash. You might sell less units, but that is perfect, that means less, phonecalls, emailing, boxing, mailing, problems, etc.

As for your reputation here, you are already a known and respected member, and most of the senior membership is 'in the know' as far as the cost and difficulties associated with your idea. I don't think anyone would criticize you for 'over pricing'.

Those that aren't in the know can reference this thread which shows the care and consideration you are displaying along with the cost and hassels involved and better appreciate the need for a higher price.
 
BGKYK5 said:
x2 on the lawyer. I hate to recomend that somebody go see one of those bloodsuckers, but the way we have set up our laws, it is the price you pay for doing business. No matter how you set it up; proprietor, LLC, corporation, they can still sue you for your personal assets if you don't do it right. Another thing to think about if you go the proprietor route, is getting an insurance policy to cover you if you get sued. You may find that way is cheaper and less of a hassle than doing an LLC or corp, but I really have no idea if it will be or not.
Click to expand...

I'm one of the bloodsuckers. I set up manufacturing companies for a living. You should ALWAYS set up some form of entity that gives you limited liability. If you have partners, LLC is the right way to go. If its just you, a Sub S corporation is the ticket. Thing is, most people think if they have and LLC or Inc. that they are protected. You are only protected if: (a) you follow formalities - minutes, filings, current on gov't filings, (b) you are properly funded (insurance can cover this) and (c) you don't use the company as your personal piggy bank. One of the post talked about getting at your personally. Its called "piercing the corporate veil". I've done it several times. If you follow a,b and c above, you will largely avoid this. Some states allow a "homestead" status for your house to protect from creditors...I know OK and FL do. All that to say: some entity to give you limited liability, adequate insurance, don't use it as a piggy bank, and keep up with your formalities and gov't filings. If you want to talk in more detail, feel free to PM me, or email me at [email protected] , but these are the broad strokes...
 
How about a web site for orders that keeps track of inventory? It could say x remaining and then no more orders would be allowed until you have made up some more.

Heck, you could set up an ebay store and only make listings for parts you actually have on hand. I think it can handle a lot of that stuff automatically.
 
I have a new thought for everyone here: what do I do now, to "hide" this business and income because some of you know and some of you don't, that I'm paying child support and alimony to the ex-wife. Is there anything to do to keep her from gaining from the sales of these brackets?

Why not just sell these in the For Sale forum as an individual instead of a vendor? Did Mike (Echobit) have all these legal stuff mentioned above to cover his ass? Or did he do it without?
 
why not market them as used items with no warrenty threw ebay or some such thing.
 
I'm sure it's the same in the US as here. If you want the benefits of insurance and liability and writeoffs than you are sol it's one or the other.

If you want go beneath the radar it should be easy as pie. In fact, here you can do so until a certain point of income, likely the US has a similar setup.

As for the ex. If the business shows a loss constantly, then I don't see how she could collect. And again, here, it is a benefit to show a loss for the first I believe 3 years.
 
If you've got a lot of the same item, it's very simple to list another like item on Ebay. Of course, more of your potential profit goes down the drain as they (and Paypal if you accept it) take their cut. Not much overall, but talking at least a couple of dollars total.
 
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