sunnyc123abc
1/2 ton status
Can't you just sell them as pieces of metal with holes in it and not advertise them as flips. That way your not responsible for how we use them.
CK5
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Lets talk about Echobit...
- Thread starter thatK30guy
- Start date
Sell them as shackle flip paperweights. Or bookends. 
I hope all of this isn't scaring you off K30GUY. Just making sure you go into it with your eyes wide open.
I'm still gonna make some and get the prototypes out. I may see what kind of feedback goes from there before I make a final decision. I'm not real eager about the legal terms about this. If I could find a way to just sell these "under the table", I would. Heck, eBay's sounding more feasible to sell thru than as a vendor. I don't see why I couldn't just sell them in the For Sale forum instead. One idea to get non-members to buy these flips would be for them to pay up the $25 membership fee so they can reply in the F/S forum to purchase a flip.BGKYK5 said:
I don't know yet. Lets wait and see.
uao85
1/2 ton status
you could always change the design slightly and call it something else entirely so you wont have name or product association, or legal issues. I am thinking of different bolt hole configurations allowing the use of different lengths of springs, or achieving different shackle angles. I will be mocking up a setup sometime soon that I want to use on my truck, I will post up some pics when I get around to it.
Remington
Remington
Screw it check with the moderators and see if you can just list them in the classifieds as a unfinished product (ie unpainted and you must supply your own bolts. no liability on how you use them) as we all know what they are for and we install them as we see fit. im sure you could also recommend the ord greasable shackle bolts and let them figure it out from there. lol call them the echobit paper weight!
Or...
I could get everything needed to complete the flip and sell them as a kit where the buyer has to weld the pieces together to complete them. This way I'm not liable for the welding. Its weld, install and wheel at your own risk.
I could get everything needed to complete the flip and sell them as a kit where the buyer has to weld the pieces together to complete them. This way I'm not liable for the welding. Its weld, install and wheel at your own risk.
I think you're going to find that anyone who already owns a welder will not be interested in the kit.
IMHO, there are two major categories of people on this site:
1. Those with the desire to build their truck with as many bolt-on parts / kits as they can find. Anything that requires welding is a hassle and is beyond the scope of what they can do (or want to do). Think about it, this is who guys like Kert (DIY4X) is selling to... complete solutions that people can bolt on with a minumum of fuss.
2. Those members who own welders and other hardcore tools, who are not afraid to make ANY modification to their truck. These fearless types don't need a "kit" and will certainly bitch about any product that isn't as cheap as the materials used to make it. You are not likely to ever sell things to people in this category.....at least not simple parts.
That's my take anyway.... owning a welder completely opens up the world of fabrication, and allows people to build their own parts for next to nothing ($$$).
I skimmed this so if I missed anything, let me know, but here is my quick take in general-
Disclaimer - worth the paper its written on if you are lucky.
LLC - worth everything you now, or will ever own. They are fairly cheap (your family lawyer can do one for you for a few hundred) and work great. Only way to get to you is if you fail to follow the rules or intentionally do something.
Hiding the income - great way to "not follow the rules" of the LLC and ruin it. Get an account in the name of the LLC and run all of the $$ through that. Get a CPA to set it up. Your wife only gets part of what you make, not an LLC that is sure to show a loss as it gets started and buys writeoff's (for about 3 years of the IRS will think that it is a hobby). And if you think that a woman scorned is bad, try the IRS.
Patent - you will never sell enough of these to pay for a patent search, much less an actually patent and no one makes enough to ever sue you anyway. Just make sure that there is some "improvement" that sets yours apart.
Using the name - if you really want to, and they have not registered it as a trademark, go ahead. But know that if you ever do make any money, they can sue you just to be a PITA and cost you lots of $$ to be "right". I would use a unique name.
Business plan - write everything down. Everything. Materials cost, realistic time to make at whatever rate you could make just working overtime, sell, help customers, set up and deal with banking, cost of paypal/bank accounts/CPA/Taxes...... Then add 30% to the total. Then figure out what net profit you can make after all expenses. If its worth it, and you don't mind the time suck - go for it.
Disclaimer - worth the paper its written on if you are lucky.
LLC - worth everything you now, or will ever own. They are fairly cheap (your family lawyer can do one for you for a few hundred) and work great. Only way to get to you is if you fail to follow the rules or intentionally do something.
Hiding the income - great way to "not follow the rules" of the LLC and ruin it. Get an account in the name of the LLC and run all of the $$ through that. Get a CPA to set it up. Your wife only gets part of what you make, not an LLC that is sure to show a loss as it gets started and buys writeoff's (for about 3 years of the IRS will think that it is a hobby). And if you think that a woman scorned is bad, try the IRS.
Patent - you will never sell enough of these to pay for a patent search, much less an actually patent and no one makes enough to ever sue you anyway. Just make sure that there is some "improvement" that sets yours apart.
Using the name - if you really want to, and they have not registered it as a trademark, go ahead. But know that if you ever do make any money, they can sue you just to be a PITA and cost you lots of $$ to be "right". I would use a unique name.
Business plan - write everything down. Everything. Materials cost, realistic time to make at whatever rate you could make just working overtime, sell, help customers, set up and deal with banking, cost of paypal/bank accounts/CPA/Taxes...... Then add 30% to the total. Then figure out what net profit you can make after all expenses. If its worth it, and you don't mind the time suck - go for it.
I think you're going to find that anyone who already owns a welder will not be interested in the kit.
IMHO, there are two major categories of people on this site:
2. Those members who own welders and other hardcore tools, who are not afraid to make ANY modification to their truck. These fearless types don't need a "kit" and will certainly bitch
Pretty sure im a #2 lol but i didnt think i bitch that much
Yeah basically no one wants to make and sell them because the risk/expense out weights the profits. to make them profitable you would have to sell them for bout $50.00 less or the same price as the ORD or DIY shackle flip kits. and even then you would have to supply greaseable bolts and nice instuctions. all that = wasted time. I personally would just make it for yourself and a couple of your local buddies. there are enough of us on here that have welders and the capability to make them, that we could in our own regions make ones for our buddies. marketing them would be a waste of time. No one is gona pay for a design that is plastered all over the web that they can get for free and go to a local weld shop and have them made for under $50.00
Just my $0.02
Wes its probably a little late to try flying under the radar on the "vendor" thing. You have a couple posts on this and we all know your plan. If you don't want to go the vendor route then e-bay might be a good place to sell them.
For the LLC look at legalzoom.com.
Last, I think Greg is right on the money about what he said about the welding thing. Personally I think you should go for it. JMHO, but I wouldn't sell them for less than $150. Mike was getting around $100 and obviously that was not enough to make it profitable. I'd hate to see a guy with knowledge base go out like that.
For the LLC look at legalzoom.com.
Last, I think Greg is right on the money about what he said about the welding thing. Personally I think you should go for it. JMHO, but I wouldn't sell them for less than $150. Mike was getting around $100 and obviously that was not enough to make it profitable. I'd hate to see a guy with knowledge base go out like that.
Well, I'm still planning to tackle this but still weighing my options as far as legal stuff goes. I will look into eBay as a "buy it now" option only.
I'm planning to go to a fabrication plant about 35 miles from me and see what they have to say about using a waterjet to cut out mass quantities of these brackets and I bring them back to work to weld them up. I'm guesstimating I can get about 40 sets of brackets out of a 4x8 sheet of metal. This would be a good starting batch to go from and see how they sell. But it all depends on how much the materials and waterjet labor costs first.
I'm planning to go to a fabrication plant about 35 miles from me and see what they have to say about using a waterjet to cut out mass quantities of these brackets and I bring them back to work to weld them up. I'm guesstimating I can get about 40 sets of brackets out of a 4x8 sheet of metal. This would be a good starting batch to go from and see how they sell. But it all depends on how much the materials and waterjet labor costs first.
fireplug
1/2 ton status
No one is gona pay for a design that is plastered all over the web that they can get for free and go to a local weld shop and have them made for under $50.00
Just my $0.02
I'll take that bet! Totally marketable. Fills a void. Do it. Start small. Keep your risk level low.
Craigslist, Kijiji, maybe Ebay. The power of word of mouth will bring the customers to you.
sunnyc123abc
1/2 ton status
any progress?
Yes! Still in the works right now as we speak. I've already got two members picked out to be surprised with prototypes.any progress?
No, don't ask who they are. You will know when they're up for sale soon enough.
sunnyc123abc
1/2 ton status
Yes! Still in the works right now as we speak. I've already got two members picked out to be surprised with prototypes.
No, don't ask who they are. You will know when they're up for sale soon enough.
Nice
can't wait
sunnyc123abc
1/2 ton status
any updates?
Kert and I took a "break" from this as we are still ironing some kinks out.
reddog64
1/2 ton status
I bought some of the originals from echobit for 160 with greasable bolts...
Never got to putting them on.. sold them to someone here...
I'd be interested in getting rid of the rear blocks with these...
Looking forward to progress...
Never got to putting them on.. sold them to someone here...
I'd be interested in getting rid of the rear blocks with these...
Looking forward to progress...
Pookster
1/2 ton status
I have one of the original echobit flips.. still working, hasnt broken (yet).
We're forgetting one important category- that is guys who may have the fabrication tools, but who are a little less than keen on welding something that is structural.
I look at myself as one of those- I've never had a weld failure and I do it by the book in terms of prep, penetration, etc. Maybe Im just overly paranoid.But either way, I am not a professional welder, nor do I claim to be one.
I have a lincoln mig, a miller synchrowave, grinders, and a plasma cutter. Doesnt mean i want to risk it. Some things are better left to the professionals!
Does this mean that professionally made stuff doesnt fail? No, but it also means I get to point the finger at someone when it does!
getting to potentially point a finger at someone is worth the money. Not to mention time- yes, i could build my own flip, and if i had some speciality setup I probably would, but for run of the mill applications, someone already made the calculations for me.
We're forgetting one important category- that is guys who may have the fabrication tools, but who are a little less than keen on welding something that is structural.
I look at myself as one of those- I've never had a weld failure and I do it by the book in terms of prep, penetration, etc. Maybe Im just overly paranoid.But either way, I am not a professional welder, nor do I claim to be one.
I have a lincoln mig, a miller synchrowave, grinders, and a plasma cutter. Doesnt mean i want to risk it. Some things are better left to the professionals!
Does this mean that professionally made stuff doesnt fail? No, but it also means I get to point the finger at someone when it does!
getting to potentially point a finger at someone is worth the money. Not to mention time- yes, i could build my own flip, and if i had some speciality setup I probably would, but for run of the mill applications, someone already made the calculations for me.
