Looking for transmission advice, TH350 or SM465

[Bowtie85]

My main wheeling rig was a 465/208. Loved it, aside from the crappy gear splits.

Got turbo 350/205 in my k10, with 308 gears and 32" tires it has a terrible low range. But that being said, all it does is go down the road and no wheeling as of now.

A 32 splined 465 with a 241 would be the bees knees fwiw.

 

[Kay86K5]

How come nobody has said NV4500?

For a straight wheeling rig, I would never run a manual. I did that in high school and a couple years after that, and playing the 3 pedal tango on the trail blows....especially the type of wheeling I do which is more technical. The control of an auto far outshines a manual in technical rock crawling. But if you wheel more in mud or not as technical stuff, then shoot, the 465 does just fine and is probably the better choice since the first gear is so much lower than any auto. If you will mainly drive this on the road and do some occasional mountain driving/light wheeling, and obliviously you like having a manual, then go NV4500 to have the low first gear, you will get that smile on your face shifting gears on mountain roads, and you will get overdrive for highway.

 

[wetoolowdingbangow]

I think the manual is just more dependent on a good gear ration/tcase. Having seen what a 465/203/205 with 5.38s will do i can say theres no pedaling going on. Watching bmxbryants rig work was proof enough for me. I got away with 4.10s with the auto but the manual is going to feel just right with the new 5.38s.

The blanket statement of saying an auto will blow a manual away every time in rock crawling is no where near realistic. Its all a matter of set up and preference. Even the simple fact that youll have far more engine braking ability with the manual is worth a lot.

It can be summarized by saying that if you run an auto youd better be able to keep it cool and if you run a manual youd better have the gears to back it up if you dont want to be jimmying the clutch all day.

 

[Kay86K5]

I think the manual is just more dependent on a good gear ration/tcase. Having seen what a 465/203/205 with 5.38s will do i can say theres no pedaling going on. Watching bmxbryants rig work was proof enough for me. I got away with 4.10s with the auto but the manual is going to feel just right with the new 5.38s.

The blanket statement of saying an auto will blow a manual away every time in rock crawling is no where near realistic. Its all a matter of set up and preference. Even the simple fact that youll have far more engine braking ability with the manual is worth a lot.

It can be summarized by saying that if you run an auto youd better be able to keep it cool and if you run a manual youd better have the gears to back it up if you dont want to be jimmying the clutch all day.

@ssyork had with his s-10 an NV4500 (almost same granny gear as 465) with a 241/205 doubler and 5.38's and I still saw vidoes of him doing really technical rock crawling where he complained about his left leg getting tired from messing with the clutch...and his was hydraulic. If you look at most purpose built crawlers, you rarely find manual tranny's in them nowadays for a reason. But I guess everyone has their own interpretation of what "technical" rock crawling really means.

I do, however, really like your last statement there. Keeping any auto tranny cool is really the only key (you can get cheap tranny coolers at summit racing all day long that due the trick just fine), that and keeping the fluid level correct. And on a manual, when really wheeling it a lot, you will most likely being replacing clutch's more often since the nature of the beast will be working the clutch a lot (not really that big of a deal, or at least as big of deal as most like to make it out to be).

 

[82355]

Hard to have more control with a fluid coupling than with a clutch pedal.

Martin

 

[Kay86K5]

Hard to have more control with a fluid coupling than with a clutch pedal.

Martin

I think you mis-understood what I meant by control

 

[82355]

Oh, you didn't mean being in control?

Martin

 

[campfire]

If you look at most purpose built crawlers, you rarely find manual tranny's in them nowadays for a reason.

Do you think that is primarily due to the cramped leg downsides, or is this just a reflection of the fact that most American drivers today don't know how to drive a stick shift? I mean, many modern vehicle models don't even offer a manual option, that's how dead stick-shift driving is in this country.

 

[Kay86K5]

Oh, you didn't mean being in control?

Martin

Still mis-understanding

Do you think that is primarily due to the cramped leg downsides, or is this just a reflection of the fact that most American drivers today don't know how to drive a stick shift? I mean, many modern vehicle models don't even offer a manual option, that's how dead stick-shift driving is in this country.

No, I don't think that has anything to do with it. The type of people who build purpose built crawlers I don't think have a problem driving a stick. And the buggies being built don't have that much less room inside them as the old CJ's or Toyota's did.

What I mean by all of this is if you have never experienced it before, you will probably have a hard time understanding it. When you do "technical" rock crawling, you get in very hairy situations that just a slight blip of the throttle, or hitting the breakes just a little too hard, or even turning the wheel just a little too much can either mean you made the obstacle, or you are rolling back down the hill you just came up. With an auto, you can keep control a situation like this better than dealing with the rocking back and forth that occurs when you are playing the three foot tango of a manual (even if you have good gearing, this is still going to occur). And in those situations you are playing with the clutch so much to try and just let it out enough so you can let your foot off the brake to move to the gas that you start burning clutches faster than normal driving on the road.

So like I said before, for technical rock crawling, an auto will shine over a manual. If you play in mud, ditches, light crawling, hunting roads, a manual is freaking awesome and is in most cases a better tranny than an auto.

Like @skunked said, it all depends on the use of the vehicle. I think sometimes I get annoyed at some of these threads of guys just asking vague questions of "Which is better, manual or auto?" or some variation of it without giving some background on what they will use it for. There are up's and down's to both....we need more info

 

[sreidmx]

Im chiming in, and wtf @bent72 Why aint I in the posse??
After driving Ethel, and @secutright 's sbc with 465/205 4:10s and 37s I am sold.. there are some things that I might not like but for a crawler trail truck.. I cant see how you can go wrong. Low makes all the "forcing" a th350 up crap seem like a joke, Ive had autos in all my trucks and had really really good luck with them all. So I really dont have a reason to switch, after driving two offroad, fast and slow I really dont see a downside especially in a truck with either a diesel that will idle itself up anything and through the brakes, or with EFI, If you are carbed Id suggest moving a pedal close to the throttle or hand throttle.. Otherwise the engine braking cant be beat, which is a big deal decending steep crap.. anyway.. I am sold.. I dont care if the splits are wide, just build an engine that revs to make the difference up or one that makes enough torque.. like a diesel..

and

It is sounding better and better everyday.

If you are remotley serious, Ill give you the Sm465 I was given recently.. Freee just to see you drive the truck..

 

[skunked]

@sreidmx did you say sm465 and fast in the same sentence?

 

[sreidmx]

yes, tall gears and 37s in 2nd make for a long gear, thats good though because it works amazing, and you can hear that 350 bark... @secutright we need video of tis.. its ridiculous..

 

[skunked]

What I mean by all of this is if you have never experienced it before, you will probably have a hard time understanding it. When you do "technical" rock crawling, you get in very hairy situations that just a slight blip of the throttle, or hitting the breakes just a little too hard, or even turning the wheel just a little too much can either mean you made the obstacle, or you are rolling back down the hill you just came up. With an auto, you can keep control a situation like this better than dealing with the rocking back and forth that occurs when you are playing the three foot tango of a manual (even if you have good gearing, this is still going to occur). And in those situations you are playing with the clutch so much to try and just let it out enough so you can let your foot off the brake to move to the gas that you start burning clutches faster than normal driving on the road.

The reverse manual valve body is another sweet thing to have on your side if you happen to get those front tires off the ground

 

[skunked]

yes, tall gears and 37s in 2nd make for a long gear, thats good though because it works amazing, and you can hear that 350 bark... @secutright we need video of tis.. its ridiculous..

I bet.

when I mean fast I mean banging through gears fast.

 

[sreidmx]

I bet.

when I mean fast I mean banging through gears fast.

With a new clutch and non wobbly shifter you can row it plenty fast, plus the sound between shifts is epic.. hard to explain easy to hear,
with regards to the technical crawling, this is a gear ratio problem, you should have to be juggling sticks and pedals if you have enough control of the ratio, the sm has the 3.7? 1st, so that is equal to a 700r4 which is about as low as you can get, then it has a doubly low gear and then you still have low range, add a crawler box and you have two gears for every situation.. This is just like autocross, or drifting, the clutch gives you the control you dont have with an auto, the auto gives you the torque multiplication you dont have in a manual. If you are trying to be tactile and finesse I think the manual wins everytime.. Its all driving style, and talent.. and when you run out.. your upside down.

 

[Bent77]

@sreidmx and @secutright
I didn't wanna stir the pot with your name if you're not all in, I see we're good.

@skunked i agree where you are going about the reverse TH350. It helps. Having spent a decade and a half bombing automatics in drag cars, it is a money game. Want a good one that will hold up, bring cash
I finally opted out on TH350s because I couldn't keep high gear clutches in them. This included top of the line components, extra clutches, and spragless

Competition crawling: yeah, I would go away from a clutch. But only because running the pedal on technical aspects like was mentioned with Norby. The harder it gets technically, it's hard on the left leg. I don't buy the torque multiplication of 2x across the board like some guys claim.
If I was going to go nucking futs crawling hardcore, I would look auto. Spend that much on a rig, what's $3500 go a bomb proof auto. But not a 350/60/65/700. 400 or 4L80-85 or better. Because I'm old and my knee is fooked up. From hockey, not wheeling

Budget/factory stuff, I can't trust the automatics

 

[sreidmx]

I agree @bent72

 

[wetoolowdingbangow]

Beyond chevys I know a ton of people who rock a manual in their rigs who do very technical rock crawling. I'd say at least 90% of Toyota rigs are manual. If auto was superior you would see a lot of people swapping to them.

I disagree that the auto is better for any sort of rock crawling. Not saying the manual is the best either. There really neck and neck in this comparison.

Like bent said it'd have to be a worked auto for me to even look sideways at it.

There's people who will drive circles around you with a manual vs auto and vice versa. Some people work the magic!

I choose manual because I feel like I'll have more control myself. I can't juggle worth a shit but I sure can rock my 450s clutch on a double black diamond trail. To each their own.

After seeing my buddy's bronco with a zf5 and bmxbryants 465 doubler setup, I was sold. He'd start it in gear and just let it walk up the rubicon.

 

[FOR MUD]

Oh boy a manual vs auto thread!!

Manuals = Towing, driving around town on the weekend, light wheeling, If you like replacing driveline parts, if you live with no traffic
Autos = Towing, driving every day, hard technical wheelin (Including mud) if don't like replacing driveline parts, if you drive with a lot of traffic

Both have there place.

What are you people doing to over heat an auto? Ever hear of running the right size cooler? I've ran the same TH350 for the 16 years...In the mud, in the rocks with zero problems....And yes, it is a rebuild....It cost me $250 to get done.
I do have a manual in my Jeep.....It's fun to drive to a point.

I always find it funny to see the manual only type get all worked up....You know, only women drive autos and us manly men like sticks .I think they they are only over compensating to hide their true feelings when it comes to autos.

 

[6872xtc]

A Toyota 4 banger wouldn't work well with the parasitic drag of an auto.
They also use Birfield? joints that can puke!!!!

But at least we get to bullshit with lots of guys at once on here!!!



Now where is my turbo encapsulator????