Manny's 83 K10 (INDEX)(56K) Manny answers his critics and FALSE ACCUSATIONS

[Seafarer76]

I hear ya. Last time I tore down my D44, I ended up having to go back in for something similiar.

 

[JEBSR]

I wouldn't say that those nuts backing off is common, but I have seen it twice. Once on a CJ5 and once on my Blazer. I agree with the red loc-tite. keep one thing in mind though. We know this stuff for one reason. We have either learned from making the same mistakes or from others in the past that have tought us.

With that in mind, I know it is frustrating but don't get to down on it. Next time you will be the guy helping a fellow member out cause you know the right way to do it. I think you have done an outstanding job in assembling the whole deal. Good Job brother

 

[Seafarer76]

Jeb is right. You are doing an outstanding job.....and seeing those nuts back off once is enough....

 

[JEBSR]

Yes Manny, please don't misunderstand my post, deffinately replace the nuts or use loc-tight. After re-reading my post I didn't state that plain enough. I mean it has happened, so don't take the chance.

 

[JEBSR]

You tha man (ny)

 

[HarryH3]

...continued...

The passenger side procedure is exactly the same:

1. Grease the outer bearing and install in the race.
2. Secure with inner lock nut with pin, torque to 50 ft/lbs, back off, retorque 35 ft/lbs.
3. Align the pin to interlock with the lock washer
4. Secure with outer lock nut, torque to 65 ft/lbs.
5. Grease inside of hub
6. Install Warn hub body
7. Install large lock ring
8. Install axle stub snap ring
9. RTV hub edge and install hub lock cap with O-Rings
10. Wipe it down and make it purdy!

Manny, While you have it back apart, insert step 2A when you put it back together:

2A. Back off the inner lock nut 3/8's of a turn. THEN go on to step 3. (Also note that the holes in the lock washer are offset from the keyway. This is so that if the pin doesn't line up with a hole, you can pull the washer off and flip it around to get alignment, rather than moving the inner nut.)

The bearings will be too tight if you leave that nut torqued down. There is supposed to be a few thousandths of play in the bearings after installation. Also note that you should be turning the rotor as you torque the inner nut. The procedure is supposed to make certain that the bearing races are fully seated in their bores so that they don't shift and create slop in the bearings while driving.

 

[miniwally]

Manny, While you have it back apart, insert step 2A when you put it back together:

2A. Back off the inner lock nut 3/8's of a turn. THEN go on to step 3. (Also note that the holes in the lock washer are offset from the keyway. This is so that if the pin doesn't line up with a hole, you can pull the washer off and flip it around to get alignment, rather than moving the inner nut.)

The bearings will be too tight if you leave that nut torqued down. There is supposed to be a few thousandths of play in the bearings after installation. Also note that you should be turning the rotor as you torque the inner nut. The procedure is supposed to make certain that the bearing races are fully seated in their bores so that they don't shift and create slop in the bearings while driving.

Also torque the outer nut to something more like 150 ft/lbs

That way they won't loosen up.

That is the torque reading from some manual that we found a few years back right after we were seeing problems with the Race blazer having loose wheel bearings all the time. The outer nuts are not tight enough at 65 ft/lbs and back off somehow.

 

[HarryH3]

Hey Harry,

Yes, I did that. I'm sorry, I was tired when I wrote this. I torqued to 50 ft/lbs while turning the rotor/hub assembly. I then backed of 1/4 turn or 90*, then tightened back to 35 ft/lbs. When I put the lock washer in the pin did not align, so I loosened the inner nut to get the proper engagement. You are absolutely correct concerning the pressure of the nut against the bearing and the bearing side play. I just went around it a different way.

Thanks again!

Manny

Manny, it still doesn't look right in that explanation. You need to loosen the nut 3/8's of a turn AFTER you torque it to 35 ft/lbs. So you loosen it TWICE during the process.

 

[HarryH3]

Hey Miniwally,

According to published Military Standards CVM1008/9, the outer nut is to be torqued to only 50 ft/lbs. Haynes/Chilton say 65 ft/lbs. The Pirate4x4 Bible says 50-70 ft/lbs. I compromised at 65. 150 Ft/lbs, respectively, is way too much and could IMHO cause damage. I will not torque that tight.

I have the data sheets if you need to see them.

Thanks!

Manny

Manny, when GM started using auto-locking hubs on the 10-bolt axles, they changed the torque value for the outer nut to 150 ft/lbs. I think it was mostly due to the way that the drive mechanism for the locking hub was connected to the special lock washer that was used with the auto hubs. In any case, the spindle itself wasn't changed, so if a 10-bolt spindle can safely take 150 ft/lbs then I'd think that a Dana 60 spindle can for sure.

 

[HarryH3]

Harry, no offense, but I'm only moving the nut slightly, its not measurable. It doesn't break the hold completely. No one can go just 3/8" turn and get that on the money. Some play is going to happen. Not trying to be a smartass, and I want to do it right, but there has to be some give somewhere in getting things lined up. There is none with that lock washer due to the tab.

Manny

Manny, I'm still not sure that you're following me... You WANT there to be some play in the bearings. You should not torque the inner nut to 35 ft/lbs and then leave it at that tightness. You MUST back off the inner nut after the second torque setting or your bearings will overheat from being too tight.

 

[miniwally]

I can completely understand why they did that with the auto hubs, but in regards to manuals, why would three viable sources, i.e., US ARMY, Chilton, Haynes and all the information in Pirate be wrong for all these years? It doesn't make sense. 150 ft/lbs of torque is a lot of torque! Is everyone torquing that high?

Manny

To get them to stay tight YES.

It is friggin tight and seems odd but since we discovered the 150 ft/lbs deal we have not had the left side bearings loosen up.

I don't care what you torque them to I just figured I would provide a bit of help.

BTW Manny if you put new bearings in (I think you did) you will need to set the preload agian later as they seat in.

 

[miniwally]

Here is my method of setting the bearings.

Step 1 throw the torque wrench on the bench and forget about it. This is a feel thing.

Tighten the inner nut to the roughly 50ft/lbs area. Spin the hub around two or three times. Loosen the nut, tighten the nut till you feel it start to get tight, rotate the hub a bunch, back off the nut agian and then while turning the hub tighten the nut till the hub gets some resistance. Install the locking washer deal and then the outer lock nut. I do 150 ft/lbs on this nut, I have not broken things with that torque and am around quite a few vehicles that use that same torque setting.

This is a feel more than a text book set in stone thing.

Take a deep breath.

After the 3rd or so time you dive into the hubs this all gets easy. 1hr start to finish for a complete knuckle replacement is my record.

 

[gmc4cw]

Here is my method of setting the bearings.

Step 1 throw the torque wrench on the bench and forget about it. This is a feel thing.

Tighten the inner nut to the roughly 50ft/lbs area. Spin the hub around two or three times. Loosen the nut, tighten the nut till you feel it start to get tight, rotate the hub a bunch, back off the nut agian and then while turning the hub tighten the nut till the hub gets some resistance. Install the locking washer deal and then the outer lock nut. I do 150 ft/lbs on this nut, I have not broken things with that torque and am around quite a few vehicles that use that same torque setting.

This is a feel more than a text book set in stone thing.

I do mine by feel also. never had one come loose and haven't toasted any bearings. Tighten the inner down while spinning the hub. getting itsnug where it is adding resistance to spinning the hub. back it off. slide in the washer. tighten the outer nut. I just keep spinning the hub. you can feel when it's too tight.

isn't wrenching fun?

 

[miniwally]

After you get to do this work here.

View attachment 40256

because of this

View attachment 40257

Working on it in the shop where it's clean is a breeze.

 

[HarryH3]

The torque to 35 ft/lbs creates a limit to that play so the bearing stays in contact with the race but isn't wedged in so tight that it cannot spin freely.

The outer nut is torqued against the lock washer to prevent the inner nut from backing off due to the bearing possibly spinning due to the hubs motion.

Let's concentrate on this part... What I'm saying is that you do not want the bearing to "stay in contact" with the race. It is supposed to be slightly loose. GM spec calls for something like 1-10 thousandths of end play in the bearings, after the outer nut is tightened. When you tighten the outer nut, it does move the inner nut up even tighter against the bearing. So if you start with "tight", you end up with "real tight". You don't want to leave the inner nut tightend to the 35 ft/lbs setting. You must back off from there to get the end play correct. Backing off roughly 3/8's of a turn from the 35 ft/lbs setting will get you right in the correct end play range after the outer nut is torqued down.

 

[Seafarer76]

Manny, can you check in the manuals what the end play of the hub is supposed to be, or the torque required to turn the rotor? If the rotor turns freely and doesn't have too much end play, I would say your method worked. The rotor should have a slight resistance to turning, but you shouldn't have to strain to make it move.

 

[bp71k5]

on the 10-bolt axles, they changed the torque value for the outer nut to 150 ft/lbs.

Are you sure that's not "150 inch pounds"? On a wheel bearing??? That's like U-bolt tightness. That sounds way too tight to me for a 10 bolt, but I'm going from memory.

 

[Seafarer76]

Sounds like you had the right method then.

 

[HarryH3]

Harry,

One question? The inner nut has a pin that the lock washer must be seated to. The lock washer has a tab that fits the key in the spindle, preventing any turning. How then, could the inner nut be tightened, when it's threaded, locked in position by the lock washer? There is no way the inner nut should spin on it's threads to tighten up. The outer nut tightens against the inner and washer to create a solid obstacle to prevent the hub from walking the spindle and coming off.

It's all good. I'll get this straight. I don't want to argue this out. I know what I have to do. I'll git-r-done.

Manny

The nut doesn't turn any more, but it gets pressed inward due to the slop between the nut threads and spindle threads. I've actually set up a dial indicator to check end play before and noticed that setting the end play before tightening the outer nut resulted in an out-of-spec end play.

 

[HarryH3]

Are you sure that's not "150 inch pounds"? On a wheel bearing??? That's like U-bolt tightness. That sounds way too tight to me for a 10 bolt, but I'm going from memory.

150 ft/lbs is the spec in my 1987 Chevrolet Factory Service Manual. The spec for the same nut in my 1974 manual is somewhere in the 50-65 ft/lbs range.