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My '70 C/10 - The Rat Bastard... [Won't Idle.]

ryoken said:
put a booster pack right to the starter.. we do that sh*t all the time.... GM ran 4 g on ton's of stuff...
Click to expand...

4gau is the "minimum" you can get away with....
Saves the car manufacturer $5/car, times 100k cars; at the expense of longevity.
Obviously, you guys get that, I just thought it relevant.

I was reading fun stuff about that fact.
Like, GM's 70's "Hot Start" issue being cause by resistance build up in the (too thin) wire.
Or, Super Duty's eating up Starters, due to voltage drop.
In th Super Duty's case, the wire corrodes 12" from the Starter... (Too thin, corrosion takes over.)



That said, the Mofo' should be working. :haha:
Im thinking its a grounding issue, too.
Gonna go over all of mine, and maybe add a couple...

Where would I put a ground, on the starter?
Just run a ground strap off one of those bolts?
 
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Im about ready to blow my brains out with this f**king starter....

Replaced BOTH battery cables, Because there was a 4v drop in the Positive and a 2v drop in the negative.
Also picked up a new starter just in case.

Now, theres a 2v drop in the Positive, and a .8v drop in the negative.
WTF!?
 
I have to ask this... are these readings you are seeing DURING cranking?
 
TheBeast_88K5 said:
Im about ready to blow my brains out with this f**king starter....

Replaced BOTH battery cables, Because there was a 4v drop in the Positive and a 2v drop in the negative.
Also picked up a new starter just in case.

Now, theres a 2v drop in the Positive, and a .8v drop in the negative.
WTF!?
Click to expand...

How are you measuring these?

Positive side you'd put the red lead from the meter on the battery +, black lead on the starter +.

Negative side says red lead on the starter ground (case) and the black lead on the battery -.

You can double-check just by putting the meter leads on the starter hot and ground and seeing what you get.

And, as Ryoken says, when is this? During cranking?

I still suspect ground weirdness. Even if the starter is grounded well to the block, the block has to be grounded well all the way through to the battery.

If you get totally frustrated by it, I can swing up and give you a second pair of hands and eyes.

-- A
 
dremu said:
How are you measuring these?

Positive side you'd put the red lead from the meter on the battery +, black lead on the starter +.

Negative side says red lead on the starter ground (case) and the black lead on the battery -.

-- A
Click to expand...

Thats how I did it.
Then, traced back toward the battery, cranking at each new test point,
Which showed the battery cables being the point of resistance.
So, I bought new cables.
When the new cables only cut the drop in half, I exchanged the starter.
The thought being, that it might have been an internal issue.



dremu said:
I still suspect ground weirdness. Even if the starter is grounded well to the block, the block has to be grounded well all the way through to the battery.

-- A
Click to expand...

Thats the wierd part.
My Battery Negative>Engine Block ground, is showing a .8v drop.
BUT, my Engine Block>Frame, shows a .15v drop.
Note that I bought the ground cables TODAY.


dremu said:
If you get totally frustrated by it, I can swing up and give you a second pair of hands and eyes.

-- A
Click to expand...
I might just have to buy lunch, and have you come up here.
I'm seriously at my wits end.
 
TheBeast_88K5 said:
My Battery Negative>Engine Block ground, is showing a .8v drop.
BUT, my Engine Block>Frame, shows a .15v drop.
Note that I bought the ground cables TODAY.
Click to expand...

My experience with DVM's, even good ones, is that you're pushing the limits of accuracy at those low readings.

Also consider that 150mV at whatever a starter takes (coupla hundred amps?) means the wire has like .000-something ohms, which is just fine.

Taking a step back, is the problem that the starter won't spin? I forget, but does your flexplate have the right number of teeth for the newfangled starter? I've never had to shim a starter, but maybe in this instance...?

Worst case the starter can be tested *off* the motor with a set of jumper cables and some ingenuity.

And sure, always happy to swing by and take a gander.

-- A
 
The starter is turning slowly.
The acceptable voltage drop limit is (.5v), after that you have too much resistance.
Hence the .8v ground drop worrying me.
Also, the 2v drop from the Battery, to the starter is a huge power loss.
One that, even if it worked, would kill starters every 6 months.

Its been raining the last few days.
I think thats adding to my frustrations.
Crawling under a truck and lying in water is a blast.
 
Gawd damn gremlins

If the starter barely turns could your timing still be a little retarted?

I wonder if you jump the starter relay if the sum beetch will crank any faster? :dunno:


Just went thru this with my buddy's Heep.
 
TheBeast_88K5 said:
Its been raining the last few days.
I think thats adding to my frustrations.
Crawling under a truck and lying in water is a blast.
Click to expand...

Same down here. I've been waiting for the kitty litter under the truck to pick up all the spilled tranny fluid, so I can then sweep and blow so I can work under it again... and then the rain came and soaked the whole driveway. Laying in a pink soggy mess is suboptimal :doah:

-- A
 
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pblaze725 said:
If the starter barely turns could your timing still be a little retarted?

I wonder if you jump the starter relay if the sum beetch will crank any faster? :dunno:


Just went thru this with my buddy's Heep.
Click to expand...

Timing is at 10-13* (advance,duh), I moved the dizzy, not sure where its EXACTLY at.
So, it ain't timing.

I bench tested the first replacement, and it spun slower than this new one.
The new one spins like a gawdamn demon hamster on Methamphetamine. :D

I'm positive (see what i did there?), that my issue is the voltage drop.
The only other thing I did was adjust the valves.
And, before anyone goes, "EUREKA!".... Thats not it.
Not only do I know I did it correctly, but I also popped the covers to check,
Whilst hand spinning it to make sure there was no mechanical binding.

Whenever it stops raining, I'll try to figure it out. :popcorn:


Oh, and thanks for the help guys! Always appreciated! :D
 
Starter Situation:

Battery - New, Charged and load tested. Holds 12.6v, drops to 12.45v after a couple non-starts.


*while cranking.... *

Bat voltage - 10.6v
Starter Bat post - 10.5v
Starter Motor post - 10.5v
Starter "S" post - 10.1v

Pos. Voltage drop - .1v
Neg. Voltage drop - .0v

Flywheel/Starter Pinion Gap. - A hair under 1/8"
*measuring between the Flywheel tooth valley, and the Pinion tooth tip.

Checked the valves.
Hand spun the engine.
Belt deflection good.
Air/Fuel/Spark are good.
Timing isnt too advanced.

Yet the starter still cranks at ~1/2 speed. :dunno:

Bad starter?
It's not too crazy to think that I had electrical problems before, That have since been fixed,
And now I just happen to have gotten a bad reman?
 
how does the starter spin when bench tested?

if it spins good, the next thing I would do is pull the plugs and see how it spins with no compression...
 
Bench testing, it spins INSANELY fast. :D

Out of curiousity, what does spinning with no compression figure out?
That the starter motor is too weak for the compression ratio?
 
it isolates and helps narrow down the issue... if it spins good, you can rule out wiring, flywheel, etc...
 
I hope you get this figured out pretty soon Mike...I`m pulling my hair out with you! :doah:

I wish I had a good thing to try that nobody else has come up with, Don`t got! :dunno:
 
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