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Need electrical help (ryoken u there???)

RootBreaker

RootBreaker

3/4 ton status
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Ok so no my truck is still not together... pulled wireharness almost 2 years ago... it is getting closer now that it is nice out im gonna work in it soon.. once i get this mazda running..
read that here
http://coloradok5.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2699941#post2699941

anyway...
once i get my truck back to being wired and running I have a few plans..
I am wiring it back to stock first.... then
1. headlight relay upgrade
2. 140a alt upgrade
3. 200a relay for batteries to connect to and charge bed batteries


so what i need help is this...
I have a ramsey patriot winch in between the frame rails in the bed...
I see on ramseys website it at max draw of 15,000lbs can be 460 amps...
so i chose 3/0 cable from the winch to the batteries in the bed (8d's thanks ryoken!!!)
then have a small 10 gauge wire going to a isolator under the hood...
the isolator connects to 2 x duralast gold 1000's in parralel...

now im going to do it differently unless someone (ryoken speak up) thinks i am overkill thinking this...

what im thinking:

1. winch cables from winch to 2x 8d batteries in bed are 3/0
2. place marine on/off switch inline (have to search but found one good for 600 amps or so) - mainly for protection
3. 1/0 gauge wire from battery to under hood to another on/off switch for protection
4. 2 x duralast gold 1000's in parallel to 200a relay
5. upgrade to 140a pontiac trans sport alternator
6. relay will be driven by a switch on/off/on so any battery can be dead (under hood or bed) and flick switch and jump off of other set

i own all parts right now except on/off marine switches....
does this sound like overkill...

my main goal is this..
1. if stuck and truck is off... get out of deep mud....

if I have the truck running... i can winch out backwards with ALOTTA BATTRY POWER
if truck is off... leave ignition off and use 2 x 8d's in bed to pull me out.... if almost out and they die... turn key on and use 2 x 1000ca duralasts for final pull......

i just want to make sure i size all wire good as they say 15000lb pull at 460Amps and only give you 2g wire!!!!!

let the opinions fly...
 
jms said:
Ditch the alternator idea. Just get a diesel-powered generator to mount in the bed. :D
Click to expand...

thought about putting a exercise bike and hook that up for my electrical source... and can give out a exercise plan for free :haha:
 
RootBreaker said:
1. winch cables from winch to 2x 8d batteries in bed are 3/0
3/0 should be fine.. how many feet of cable total?
2. place marine on/off switch inline (have to search but found one good for 600 amps or so) - mainly for protection
tho a marine switch does offer some protection, in the sense that you can turn the circuit off if there is an issue, it's not circuit protection... ANL fuses are the way to go to protect a winch circuit...
3. 1/0 gauge wire from battery to under hood to another on/off switch for protection
what is this? your charge wire?
4. 2 x duralast gold 1000's in parallel to 200a relay
5. upgrade to 140a pontiac trans sport alternator
6. relay will be driven by a switch on/off/on so any battery can be dead (under hood or bed) and flick switch and jump off of other set

.
Click to expand...

honestly, you'd need to draw up a simple diagram of what you want to do, and i'll tell ya if it's gonna work and where you could improve, etc... you've got "too much going on" for me to just give you the thumbs up... put it in MS Paint...
 
ok i threw it together...
basically i want to be able to do 2 things..

1. kill power from the lines to the winch (in case a wire gets cut, shorted or whatever)
2. kill recharge power back to batteries because with key on relay will put all 4 batteries into 1 large pool (from what i have read) so can kill the power to charge them but still have truck running and not touching the batteries under the hood.


if the winch draws 460A max... i would need a switch that is rated for constant 500A+ and this one does 600A continuously.

tell me what you think....


also not in the diagram.. gonna use a contura (on/off/on) and tie a hot wire to either side of batteries so if front or back are dead i can jump the truck from itself (boss told me that one)

wiring.jpg
 
is that thing to the right of the alt a relay or isolator?
 
couple things i'd consider........

#1 - the one thing i would make sure to do is run the 8D grd up to the engine block... tieing it into the front grd system...

#2 - the diesel marine switch you put between the winch and 8D's would be MUCH better served, and cheaper, as a ANL fuse...


anl_fuse_holder.jpg




#3 - keep in mind, as you run the rear bats on a winch, without the alt charging them, your amp load will increase because your voltage is dropping consistently... thus the advantage of 24v supplies to high amp circuits... that's why many big diesels run 24v starters and series switches, to keep the voltage up..

#4 - i wouldn't really consider your relay to rear bat switch a "charge" wire, it is effectively a paralleling wire... which in turn means if you decide to close the relay to rear winch off the front bats, all your 3/0 out back means nothing, that 0 gauge will now be the bottleneck, weaklink in the system... i'd seriously consider making it the same as the rest of the system....

#5 - you are aware that unless that relay is closed, you wont be charging the back bank... how is that relay being closed again? strictly the Contura, or run position fired?
 
...........


I replied to below but now thinking.....

I dont have to do it as im showing in the diagram... i can also ditch the rear batteries.....they were given to me and will go bad eventually...

would i be better off just running 20' of some gauge wire back to the winch from under the hood? I seriously think what im trying to do is overkill... the winch came with 5' of 2 gauge wires....

I could run 1 marine switch right off of the relay back to the winch.. there is my power off so no power will ever get to the winch unless I need it to..... will then need less parts, etc..


if you were to wire a 15k winch that " CAN " draw 460A continuously how would you wire it into a fullsize pickup????

ryoken said:
couple things i'd consider........

#1 - the one thing i would make sure to do is run the 8D grd up to the engine block... tieing it into the front grd system...

will do.... 2 gauge ground back up...

#2 - the diesel marine switch you put between the winch and 8D's would be MUCH better served, and cheaper, as a ANL fuse...


anl_fuse_holder.jpg



so dont get the ANL fuses but just use the marine switch....

#3 - keep in mind, as you run the rear bats on a winch, without the alt charging them, your amp load will increase because your voltage is dropping consistently... thus the advantage of 24v supplies to high amp circuits... that's why many big diesels run 24v starters and series switches, to keep the voltage up..

#4 - i wouldn't really consider your relay to rear bat switch a "charge" wire, it is effectively a paralleling wire... which in turn means if you decide to close the relay to rear winch off the front bats, all your 3/0 out back means nothing, that 0 gauge will now be the bottleneck, weaklink in the system... i'd seriously consider making it the same as the rest of the system....

didnt think of that.. and you are true on that.... relay open means 0 gauge tieing in front and rear battery sets...

#5 - you are aware that unless that relay is closed, you wont be charging the back bank... how is that relay being closed again? strictly the Contura, or run position fired?
Click to expand...

the way the relay works is that once you get power to it, it closes the circuit so immediately will be closed... hence why i was going to use another marine switch to kill charge back to the rear set of batteries....
 
doctored up my wiring a bit...
i ordered the switches...

i dont think i need all of them.... but i want flexability so maybe i do..

at least the one under the hood will work good...
1 for bank 1 and 2 for bank 2 or 1+2 for both.. nice and flexible..

in the bed...
1 switch to kill winch power (will be off almost ALL of the time)
1 switch to allow batteries to get charged and no power to winch or cutoff battery voltage from going back under the cab to the front...

so if i put the under hood to 1 and bed to off... then no voltage to wire under cab (just in case)

now im looking for criticism... bashing, etc...

how would you do this? since my 10yr old and 3yr old ride in the truck.. i want to control the power.. currently if i got a short in the winch line or pinched the charge wire from under the cab to bed... i could get a short.. both run next to gas tanks... so try and figure that into the equation too...

so off to my horrid wiring and drawing.. :haha:

wiring.jpg







look right???
 
reminds me of when i used to run subwoofers. Looks good to me but it sounds like ryoken is the pro on this so we'll see :P
 
what is that in the center, a contura fired solenoid?
 
ryoken said:
what is that in the center, a contura fired solenoid?
Click to expand...


ok so here are the componets in the order from top down..
top row
2 duralast gold 1000 batteries

next row
alternator - dual battery switch

next row
contura rocker switch on/off/on - connected to stinger 200a relay

next row
single battery switch - single battery switch

next row
8d batteries

final row
winch
hope that helps some...
 
I don't know, maybe it's late, maybe a brainfart, but your primary side, 1 off your top switch has me totally conflused..

disregarding the back bats, #2 altogether... your front 2 batteries are in permanent parallel, feeding the #1 post...


but you have me totally lost on the common lug running to the relay, then to the alternator.... I'm not sure what your trying to do there?


on the back 1/2... that first switch you have is unneeded... the main one up front takes care of your switching... run on 1, switch to 2 or all to include the back batteries... no point in having that switch in 2 or all, then having it turned off at another switch...


if you want to run the switch from the 8D output to the winch thats fine.... but honestly you'd be better off with a fuse, or better yet, a fuse and the switch...

i know the idea of having a switch to "leave off" or "turn off" the winch in an emergency is appealing, and switching it is fine.... but it's just gonna give you a false sense of security...

without circuit protection, your looking at a dead short of a main battery cable, whether thats while in use, OR when the line is unpowered and you turn it on... you should have a fuse between the winch and switch, up near the switch... this will protect the switch and batteries from a catastrophic failure if the winch/wire short out...
 
when i do electrical i always cheat... use wire nuts.. just twist wires together with no electrical tape, etc... but im trying to do it right...

i dont mind buying a anl fuse and holder... so i can get the 500A fuse and fuse block as the winch max is 460A or i could go 600A or 750A

i just for some reason cant figure out how to wire something like this..
i can do this with just a fuse from the battery to the winch and one from under the hood to the rear and use no switches....

there are so many ways people can wire things...

i want to be able to shut things off and make sure it is all safe... right now if you nick the cable in the bed.. the cable will arc and yeah batteries will go cablewie... no protection....

so you say go winch to fuse to switch....
then that switch to switch under the hood....

i dont have the switch under the hood wired right... i just did that for picture view....

Sorry im making your head hurt as much as mine im just thinking like this..


if i put the winch to one side of switch (fuse inline)
then other side of switch to batteries that is a circuit...
but to tie into the front batteries use the other switch....

you put under hood switch on 1.. you have power to front batteries... but if you wire the back batteries up to 2 on the switch... you will still have voltage at the switch under the hood on 2 because the batteries in the bed are connected to it.... so in theory if i accidentally hit something and clipped that wire.... i will still have a short because the wire from under the hood to the bed is still live... that is why i was thinking the middle switch...

more of a off----------off---------------off
first dashes are from dual bat switch under the cab to the bed... second set of dashes are to second switch which runs winch.... that run will be maybe 4-6" so i really dont expect to short that one out.. it is the initial under the hood to the bed i want to be carefull with...
right now i have a 10g wire that runs along the frame (actually zip tied to my fuel line) and runs up through a hole in the bed that i drilled.. now it is in wire loom.... but over time could get a slice in it.. so i want to figure out a safe way for the long haul....

once again sorry for probably making this tougher than it is.... :crazy:
 
ok, here's a quickie..... just tell me what you want to achieve with the relay and i'll work that in..... also, somewhat ignore the triangle out of the top switch common.. thats more or less just to let you know that is output to the truck...


if your run an identical, off/1/2/all switch in the back you can eliminate a switch..... off on the back switch, everything is isolated in the rear system, including the cable from bed to hood... 1, the back bank is powering the switch/winch... 2, front is powering the switch/winch, all, everything is open...

if you run with the front switch on 1 and the back one on off, the hood/bed and winch/switch leads will be dead.......





root-1.jpg






oh, btw.... please leave the wire nuts for the house..... you can't imagine how big a no-no that is in my biz... no joke, people die...
 
Last edited:
ryoken said:
ok, here's a quickie..... just tell me what you want to achieve with the relay and i'll work that in..... also, somewhat ignore the triangle out of the top switch common.. thats more or less just to let you know that is output to the truck...


if your run an identical, off/1/2/all switch in the back you can eliminate a switch..... off on the back switch, everything is isolated in the rear system, including the cable from bed to hood... 1, the back bank is powering the switch/winch... 2, front is powering the switch/winch, all, everything is open...

if you run with the front switch on 1 and the back one on off, the hood/bed and winch/switch leads will be dead.......


f1 and f2 are confusing me.. do i need them?
im looking at starting to wire the winch up.. still need a winch motor...


root-1.jpg






oh, btw.... please leave the wire nuts for the house..... you can't imagine how big a no-no that is in my biz... no joke, people die...
Click to expand...


im back at this dude... can ya assist more?
that switch is confusing me... see here..

3003BlueSeas.JPG
 
ryoken said:
that bat switch is a 1, 2, all..... #1 and #2 in from the bats.. common out.. f1, f2 are the field disconnect, so you can switch between 1 and 2 while in use, or even off.....



http://bluesea.com/viewresource/91
Click to expand...

ok i understand more of it... just got back hitting it with my meter...

what i dont understand of what you said was the f1 and f2...
so if i do not hook anything up to them... i can still manually switch at the switch?


i see now.. what i need to do is..

from winch... to anl-600 fuse
fuse other end to COMMON post
Battery 1 post run to front of truck for front batteries
Battery 2 post run off of batteries in bed


so this will allow me to
drain the bed batteries by using #2
drain under the hood batteries by using #1
or use all 4 by selecting both...

so i get that now... i have no clue if i need f1 and f2???


to charge the batteries... i will need to have switch set to both???
 
you can not hook up the field disconnect, just don't switch between 1 and 2 while the engines running...
 
Alternators do not like to see no load. If you disconnect the battery from one with it putting out power, they tend to eat themselves.

The diodes in there are rated at a relatively low voltage. Probably 50 volts or less. High current diode prices go up fast with voltage rating.
So,since they are not supposed to see more than about 15, 50 is plenty.

But, if the alternator does not see a load or a ground reference through the battery, the internal voltages are free to drift as high as they like.

So, its real easy to blow the alt.

The "F" switches are usually hooked to the fields of the alternators. They are designed to turn off before the main contacts break and not turn back on until the main contacts make again.

When you turn off the field, you kill the alt. So it is not putting out any power while the switch is switching between the batteries. Thus saving the alt.

Like he said, you don't need them as long as you are careful to never switch the switch with the engine running.

Some battery switches don't need them. They use what is called "make before break" switching.
If you want to switch from battery 1 by its self to battery 2 by its self, the switch hooks up to battery 2 before it turns off battery 1.
Thus both batteries are tied together briefly, but the alt never loses a load.
 
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