Oh what the head gasket!

[Chevy305]

My timing couldn't be worse trying to call machine shops on saturday of labor day weekend I won't be able to talk to anyone until tuesday!

 

[wasted wages]

Looks to me the inner coils stacked solid and deformed and bent....that probably took out the valve stem seals....

Did you check the valve springs for solid stack when you changed the cam?

Are you running high ratio rockers?

Along with a higher lift cam,the springs maybe stacking solid at full lift....

 

[Chevy305]

Looks to me the inner coils stacked solid and deformed and bent....that probably took out the valve stem seals....

Did you check the valve springs for solid stack when you changed the cam?

Are you running high ratio rockers?

Along with a higher lift cam,the springs maybe stacking solid at full lift....

When I installed the cam I rotated the engine a few times over to double and triple check geometry. The springs weren't stacking, however maybe the lifters weren't pumped up being new

Running the standard 1.5 rocker arm ratio.

The valves are rated for .575" of lift while I am running .515/.530.

 

[ChrisPerry]

Would my new roller cam have anything to do with this? I noticed the max lift says .575" hydraulic flat tappet, not hydro roller. My cam has a lift of .515/.530.
However, I don't know if the valves started doing this before or after the cam swap

I thought roller cams required more spring pressure. From what I've been told the extra weight of the roller lifters will cause loss of valve control at lower than normal RPM. I would look at the cam card and see what the recommended spring specs are.

 

[wasted wages]

I thought roller cams required more spring pressure. From what I've been told the extra weight of the roller lifters will cause loss of valve control at lower than normal RPM. I would look at the cam card and see what the recommended spring specs are.

Yup,,,,I bet at high rpms the valves floated and the spring retainers smashed into valve stem seals.....the inner spring being crushed and bent also point in this same direction....

 

[folkenheath]

The head gasket Top (head side):

A close up of the #7 cylinder:
What's with the pitting on the exhaust valve?

Yes, you are talking about the blue/green valve stem seals. They got pushed up, and it looks to me like it was because of the broken valve spring dampeners. The inner flat sectioned spring looking things. Those are there to dampen the harmonics of the spring when they hit thier resonant frequency. It looks to me like some of them are bent or broken, which can cause mechanical damage to the seals and in worst case could cause spring or retianer damage and a dropped valve, or a chunk could make its way down to the rotating assembly, but it would most likely just fall into the oil pan and get blocked by the pickup screen.

You need new valve springs and maybe retainers. I would also have the heads shaved and pressure checked. Be careful on the valvespring selection. You need something that fits in the pocket diameter, has the right installed height, spring rate, and closed pressure. Depending on teh spring you may need new retainers and locks. Also, make sure the broken dampers didn't damage your valve stems, which would in turn actually damage your valve guides if the damaged stem entered the guide. Also, debur the valve stem lock groove before you pull the valve through or you will scratch the guides.

If you buy a $60 valve spring compressor you could do most of the work yourself. Obviously you can't pressure check or shave the heads yourself, but it will be cheaper to have it done if the head was already apart, then you could just lap the valves too as long as there isn't any damage to them.

As for the head gasket, it looks like it was leaking, but it's hard to say for sure, too much distance and not enough detail, could just be dirty. Make sure you look at the top of your piston and your spark plug. Its probably just aftermath from the coolant in the cylinder, but you want to make sure the marks from the valve wasn't something in the cylinder, like the tip of a spark plug or something. If it was, there will be the same marks on the piston top in that spot. Most likely it was the fluid effects, because I dont see it on the quench area of the head, unless the carbon is covering it up.

Look for a crack in the head around your spark plug threads, especially in the chamber. Your story sounds a little weird with coolant coming out next to the plug hole.

 

[dyeager535]

I also went with a roller camshaft, and had to have the springs swapped out. Flat tappet springs typically have a fair bit less spring pressure, all else being equal. The cam and head manufacturer should have the spring specs/requirements online, which you can compare.

As to turning the engine over by hand, not going to be a failsafe way of ensuring the springs don't go into coil bind. Need to use a very weak spring on one of the valves (can't compres the lifter seat) and measure the compressed height of the spring. Spring manufacturers AFAIK will tell you at what measurement you will run into coil bind.

While you are doing this, you need to ensure that the roller tip of the rocker is making the correct "sweep" of the valve stem. I had to correct that with different pushrods on mine as well.

 

[Chevy305]

Thanks for the replies guys!

I dropped the head off today at a shop today. The guy took one look at it and pointed out exactly where the head gasket blew. I gave him the cam card and the head spec card too. He said he's going to need some time to research and find the right springs and new seals. I'll be pulling the other head tomorrow and bringing it up to the shop. I'm pretty impressed with the guy's shop and equipment he has. I can tell he's going to do a good job. I'm just going to let him handle it so I know its going to be right rather than me trying source valves, locks, retainers, seals, and springs and hope it all works together and be compatable with my cam.

 

[496truck]

What shop did you take it to? Recent events may have us looking for a new engine shop when we need Volvo heads redone.

 

[Chevy305]

What shop did you take it to? Recent events may have us looking for a new engine shop when we need Volvo heads redone.

Circle Performance Engines
They have a new shop and are still moving in and organizing. Check out their website. Also their shop isn't in Brocton, its now in Berkeley.

 

[diesel4me]

Is it on Rt.79 in Berkley MA..??..I think that place was or might still be a motorcylce shop ,if its the same place I'm thinking of..I have a friend that lives a few houses away from there...I'll check their web page out!..

 

[Chevy305]

Is it on Rt.79 in Berkley MA..??..I think that place was or might still be a motorcylce shop ,if its the same place I'm thinking of..I have a friend that lives a few houses away from there...I'll check their web page out!..

Its off of 79 on Locust street. It a huge shop behind the guys house.


So yesterday I pulled the other head and it had the same problem with the valves. However, the head gasket was in perfect shape really showing how bad the other side was.

That's one sad and lonely short block:

 

[diesel4me]

Hmmm.....Locust St..maybe its the place that used to be Manny & Sons auto salvage??..been awhile since I've gone down that street,but I do go thru Berkley common quite often--I know the town well,used to hang around there as a teen,but haven't been in it much since other than to drive thru it to get somewhere else..........................................................................................................................................................................................................I'll have to tell some friends who need machine work done about them,there is only a few places around here that do heads,press bearings,etc, and other auto machine shop work,and they are very expensive,and have that attitude of "we'll do it when we feel like it",not ASAP.........................................................................................................................................................................................................One friend in particular is tired of getting screwed when he brings a car spindle into a shop near his to have a bearing pressed in--they often wont do it the same day,leaving a car tying the lift up for at least a day,and if they dont supply the bearing,they charge him double!..sometimes they wont have it in stock,and that leaves him in a bind--tell them to order one,hope it comes in the next day before late afternoon,and they can press it in before closing time--or buy a bearing somewhere else,and pay double to get them to press it in.....and they are really "offended" if he has to do that!................If he goes elsewhere, its several miles away,and often that shop is "backed up" for several days they are so busy...it's tough keeping customers when you say it'll only take a few hours to fix their car--but then you have to call them and tell them it'll be 2 DAYS bcause he cant press in the bearing himself,or get one the same day....

 

[Chevy305]

No it's behind the guys house, and he has a nice yard, definitely was NOT a salvage yard in past

Why would you "hang out" in such a rural farm town when Bridgewater is only a few mins up 24? Well unless you like cow tipping...

 

[diesel4me]

I had many friends in Fall River in my teens,and I put many miles on my first few vehicles "cruising" around Berkley,Freetown and Middleboro getting to that town,it was REAL rural there then,we had practically no worries about getting pulled over in Berkley,as they had maybe 2 cops then,and we know both of them well.........................................................................................................more than once we got caught parking with our girfriends on the many dirt roads in Berkley,with beers or hard stuff,and were just told to "get the heck outta here,whatcha trying to do,make me WORK?"...we had more drag races and bonfires in Berkley than any other place around...........................I did have a few friends from Bridgewater too.................................................................................................................You could get away with a lot back in those days...but you didn't mess around in Fall River!..the cops there didn't fool around,if you got caught doing something like DWI or causing trouble,they would often take the perps to the state forest (the "res") and beat them sensless,and leave them there,let them walk home--just as often as they would haul you to the station and book ya!.....we always wore our halos in Fall River!..

 

[Chevy305]

Update

Update:

Well machine shop is basically bending me over having their way with me. It turns out the heads are pretty ****ed. The driverside head isn't flat and will have to be resurfaced and the passengerside isn't 100% true either so both have to be done. Aparently the problem with the valve seals is a factory defect where the inner spring was allowed to contact the seal and through the action of the valves eventually break free and ride up the valve spem.

So in order to get them back with all the propper assembled parts will be to a tune of $952.88 Thats more than I paid for the heads!!!

But results will be far better than the off the shelf and be matched to my cam.

UGH FML!!!

 

[ryoken]

coughjustshouldaboughtAFRcough

 

[folkenheath]

They are f'ing you big time. Resurfacing the heads shouldn't be more than $125 - $150. And new valve seals are maybe $32 tops. Valve springs should be a couple hundred dollars, maybe. You are getting ripped off.

For that price you could practically have a brand new pair of Edelbrock heads. Or some Darts would be even better. Both of them use castings and machining made in the USA, instead of the foriegn castings of the patriots.

I don't think you should buy new heads since you already have them, but I would definitely tell them to go pound sand.

Have them resurfaced (probably somewhere else depending on their price), and buy new seals and springs/retainers yourself, and for $60 you buy the tool and put it back together and lap the valves.

 

[Chevy305]

coughjustshouldaboughtAFRcough

Ya ya rub it in...

They are f'ing you big time. Resurfacing the heads shouldn't be more than $125 - $150. And new valve seals are maybe $32 tops. Valve springs should be a couple hundred dollars, maybe. You are getting ripped off.

For that price you could practically have a brand new pair of Edelbrock heads. Or some Darts would be even better. Both of them use castings and machining made in the USA, instead of the foriegn castings of the patriots.

I don't think you should buy new heads since you already have them, but I would definitely tell them to go pound sand.

Have them resurfaced (probably somewhere else depending on their price), and buy new seals and springs/retainers yourself, and for $60 you buy the tool and put it back together and lap the valves.

So the $950 includes a complete valve job which isn't necessary, but would make the heads 100% new.
So here's the price breakdown:

$40 - dissasembly
$60 - Clean and wash and inspect for cracks
$45 - install time-sert for #3 spark plug hole (that was my oops)
$240 - valve job with all tips at exact height
$160 - Resurface heads
$45 - Final wash of heads and parts
$80 - Measure and set installed spring heights
$40 - Assemble heads

$213 - Parts
$15 - Shipping


So I'm thinking I might skip the valve job and save the $240

 

[80' 427]

Not to be hateful but that is why I won't buy those chinese heads. I would do the valve job but they don't need to do it to exact heights, you have adjustable valvetrain.