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Potential of stock TBI heads?

Here is something I'd look into:

http://www.racingheadservice.com/Products/Heads/PT-SBC.asp

I don't understand how you solve the vortec vs. earlier bolt pattern issue with those heads (it's dual patterned) but I suspect it's so you can use an earlier intake with a bunch of grinding. I thought there wasn't enough material, but what do I know?

Also no idea about the EGR issue, if those heads have a crossover or not. Impossible to tell from the photo. (and not mentioned that I see) That of course is if you intend to run EGR.
 
As I understood it, even if you drilled and tapped vortec heads to take an older style manifold the intake ports would not line up correctly.
 
Don't mean to hyjack, but I have a set of Vortecs that I'm not gonna use. There rebuilt, have screw in studs, guide plates, springs to 540 lift. Vortecs use Vortec specific rockers, with the guideplates you can use any rocker off a SBC. I have $500 into them, and will sell them for $400. You can get Vortec intakes off Evilbay for little over $100. Everyone I talk to about using these heads for a street vehicle said that they are the best head for the buck. Really wakes up a motor, and good for a mild motor. For more racey motors you might want a bigger, more flowing head. Just my .02.
 
vortec said:
i recommend a set of 305ho heads. i just might know a guy willing to sell a decent pair.:wink1:

and i too recomend against them. chambers are too small, valves are too small, and the ports are barely adequate for a healthy 305, much less the added displacement of a 350.

bang for the buck, its REALLY hard to beat the Vortecs.

as for the GMPP Vortec TBI intake, i'd pass on it. its much cheaper to run a standard carbed intake and an adapter for the TBI.

http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ntt=adapter&N=700+4294925239+115+4294814306&Ntk=KeywordSearch

i've even seen people use a piece of 3/8" plate steel or aluminum bolted the the carb flange on the manifold, then cut for the TBI to bolt to it.
 
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Personally I would just port your stock TBI heads. They are acually a pretty good head for a truck. Intake runners are huge. IIRC 180CC. Its the swirl port ramps and small exhaust that restrict them. With a little work like: Port matching, Cleaning up the casting flash, Opening up the swirl ramp by grinding a little U in it and smoothing it up. Dont grind off the ramp completly cuz it really helps generate low end torque. Open up/port match the exhaust ports and polish. You really dont have to do any bowl work on them except maby unshroud the valves.
Just a little work will make 193 heads flow very well. You can realise gains in the low to midrange as good or better than you can get with Vortecs for a lot less money. Valve job and porting should be around 5-600 dollars. Thats about 250-300 less than Vortecs,TBI manifold and EGR plumbing will cost you.

These heads will still not be high RPM performance heads like Vortecs. They will build their power down low. But that is where you want it in a truck. Combined with a mild Computer frendly cam you will end up with a very good running truck and keep good gas MPG.
 
Okay, you guys have pretty much got me sold on the Vortec heads. I suppose that my egr is unhooked as it is right now so it shouldnt be that big of a deal as long as the inspectors don't figure it out. How much hp will I lose by just sticking with my stock exhaust manifolds versus a set of LT headers? Also which of these intakes look okay to use with a TBI adapter and vortec heads?

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=SUM%2D226018&N=700+115&autoview=sku

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=WND%2D8121&N=700+115&autoview=sku

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=EDL%2D2116&N=700+115&autoview=sku

Thanks so much for the help.

-Wes
 
dyeager535 said:
You make power in the heads. (well, for me anyways, that really is the bread and butter. An engine is a system, but the heads will net you some serious gains, and without good heads, any of the other mods are tempered) If you want to spend money on any one component for an engine, my vote is heads. .
I'm quoting this because it's worth being repeated. The heads are the key to whatever you're trying to achieve.

FWIW I've been warned by my past employer/racing engine shop to steer clear of the intake 4 bolt heads as they have problems in sealing the intake gaskets.

What my shop has told me is that with aluminum heads you can be more aggressive with timing and comp ratio as they are less prone to detonate.
 
the key to a good seal on a 4 bolt head is a good gasket. you cant achieve a good seal with an over the counter paper gasket. spend a few extra dollars ($25 IIRC) and buy a set of stock Vortec gaskets, and you'll be good. they're plastic with neoprene seals built into them.
 
Yep, already had mine apart after running, stock GM gaskets held up fine.

You say your EGR is disconnected, but the inspectors haven't figured it out. yet. Does that mean a visual? Because you'd have to do some work to fake-fab an EGR on a non-EGR intake if you need to pass visual.
 
Looks like you could use any of them.

I just googled tbi carb adapters, came up with this page:

http://www.tdperformance.com/pdfs/13-CarbtoTBIAdapters-2.pdf

Since they have adapters for spread or square bore carb intakes, go with whatever you'd like best.

I'm assuming if an auto trans (except TH400) that you'll run into linkage problems since the TBI position will change. Others that have done it can comment I'm sure.
 
Thats exactly what I was thinking I could do. Before inspection I could some how affix my old egr valve to the intake manifold and make it appear to have an egr system. Who knows, it could work if I found the right inspector. That is also an issue that was brought up about raising the throttle body with a spacer and it being out of adjustment. Could I simply readjust my TV cable if this happened or would it be much more complicated?

Thanks,

Wes
 
Bater 20 WTF are you laughing at???? Have you ever worked over a set of 193s?????? Do you even know what a DIE DGRINDER IS???? AND HOW TO USE ONE?????. I have ported my heads and i know what their potential is. They are an excellent truck head. NO they ain't for going down the 1/4 mile fast. But for a good 0 to 5000 K rpm head they do work good.
Working over a set of 193s is a good alternative to more expensive heads which will require Chip work, headers, intake, bigger TBI ECT $$$$ ECT$$$.
The original poster wanted to know the potential of stock TBI heads.
I simply responded to him honestly and YOU LAUGH AT ME???????
The original poster was looking for an economical way to make more power.
I hope he realizes that Vortecs will require a new chip for the computer. $250 +
Bigger Throttle body $250. Roller cam/lifters/guids, $350 Intake $350+ and headers (smog legal) $350 to get the most bang for his buck.
With ported 193S, a mild cam, and an adjustable fuel pressure regulator you can make it work fine with the stock chip, have plenty of power, and get 19 MPG on the highway.
I know I'm driving MY K5 with these mods.
 
At some point I think you end up without enough length in the TV cable, but I don't know if the adapters discussed would cause that or not. Still hoping others that have used TBI spacers or carb spacers chime in with their experiences. May be something you just have to deal with when you get there.

As to the "which head is better" topic, how about some objectivity in the matter? At least to keep from getting pissy with each other anyways?

Yes, the stock heads can be worked to make decent power. Yes, they would help keep cost down EXCEPT the machining aspect...don't forget, a new head is going to have all new valvetrain components, (short of rockers) which IMO are part of a complete head rebuild. In machinework/parts, you are likely over $200 in a stock set of heads. Still with pressed in studs. About $100 if you want to replace those.

Vortecs will run off the stock chip, but I don't want anyone to believe it will be anywhere near close. But any mod you make, to get the most power out of a motor, needs a chip burned. Don't even bother saying "it runs fine" unless you've got the datalogs to prove it. Mine sure seems like it runs great, until I look at the datalogs and the ECM is trying to constantly correct a lean condition.

Bigger throttle body, headers, and roller cam are certainly not required for a head swap, from what's been shown on the carb side though, bigger TBI is likely better. However, increasing airflow is increasing airflow, whether through extensive porting or different heads.

Put a cost list together from the parts mentioned, and see where it puts you either way. Complete heads are usually cheaper (meaning with springs, valves, etc) so figure on those. If you go aftermarket heads with screw in studs, you could run guideplates and "normal" rockers. If stock Vortec heads, you'll need the guided/rail rockers, should be commonly available by now. Intake is pretty easy. Carbed intake adapted to TBI shouldn't run you more than around $200. There might be a Vortec TBI non-EGR intake out there which may or may not save money over the adapter plan. Options are good, nothing wrong with people putting logical ones out there. The more options and info you have, the more informed your decision will be, and the happier you will be with it.

Last but not least, is time. I use what I tend to make per hour, and then calculate roughly how long I'll spend building something. If it costs less to buy a product I have confidence in (like heads) than the time I would spend trying to make the same thing, I buy. That's up to you of course. Overall, I think when we factor in our time, we could have had a second job and bought a whole new truck, as opposed to working on the ones we have for free. But we wouldn't have exactly what WE want. :)
 
Thunder said:
Bater 20 WTF are you laughing at???? Have you ever worked over a set of 193s?????? Do you even know what a DIE DGRINDER IS???? AND HOW TO USE ONE?????. I have ported my heads and i know what their potential is. They are an excellent truck head. NO they ain't for going down the 1/4 mile fast. But for a good 0 to 5000 K rpm head they do work good.
Working over a set of 193s is a good alternative to more expensive heads which will require Chip work, headers, intake, bigger TBI ECT $$$$ ECT$$$.
The original poster wanted to know the potential of stock TBI heads.
I simply responded to him honestly and YOU LAUGH AT ME???????
The original poster was looking for an economical way to make more power.
I hope he realizes that Vortecs will require a new chip for the computer. $250 +
Bigger Throttle body $250. Roller cam/lifters/guids, $350 Intake $350+ and headers (smog legal) $350 to get the most bang for his buck.
With ported 193S, a mild cam, and an adjustable fuel pressure regulator you can make it work fine with the stock chip, have plenty of power, and get 19 MPG on the highway.
I know I'm driving MY K5 with these mods.
Ever looked at the average joe's port job? Its not something you just DO. I've seen some heads guys thought were hot **** cause they opened up the ports BIG TIME, but didn't pay attention to the roof of the port at ALL. There is potential in any set of heads.

My 383 has a set of heads off of an 89 Chevy Caprice(9C1 package) they aren't ideal. I should have used Vortecs, but I had them and they were cheap to deal with. However once I got them crack checked, sandblasted, new valve guides, valve grind, new springs to handle my cam, etc. I should have gotten Vortec heads and done the same crap. Hindsight.

Aluminum vs. Iron: Its been shown before, if you take 2 heads, same design and run them on the same engine with the same everything(compression, cam, intake, etc.) Iron will make more power. It holds the heat where you need it, in the combustion chamber. Aluminum dissipates the heat. While this allows for higher compression it takes heat away fromt he combustion chamber. Now thats a fine little fact, but it is true you will find more HP in that say .5:1-1:1 compression gain than you would in the iron vs aluminum deal. I personally want to build a steel head big power motor in the near future. Just so I can pop the hood and have people not take it seriouslly... If they ignore the turbo and custom fuel injection system....
 
Thunder said:
Bater 20 WTF are you laughing at???? Have you ever worked over a set of 193s?????? Do you even know what a DIE DGRINDER IS???? AND HOW TO USE ONE?????. I have ported my heads and i know what their potential is. They are an excellent truck head. NO they ain't for going down the 1/4 mile fast. But for a good 0 to 5000 K rpm head they do work good.
Working over a set of 193s is a good alternative to more expensive heads which will require Chip work, headers, intake, bigger TBI ECT $$$$ ECT$$$.
The original poster wanted to know the potential of stock TBI heads.
I simply responded to him honestly and YOU LAUGH AT ME???????
The original poster was looking for an economical way to make more power.
I hope he realizes that Vortecs will require a new chip for the computer.

well... you're going to start with an inferior used casting , spend the money to get it up to stock level with a valve job, maybe valve guides, decking them, so on and so on.

to have all of this work done the right way, you're already in over the price of Vortecs. factor in the labor involved in a good port job, and you've covered the price of your new intake. throttle/tv cable brackets arent that hard to modify or fabricate, and regardless of which heads you go with, its going to need to be tuned.

oh and BTW, your swirl ports still have inferior combustion chambers.
 
Ok so now the guy is disconncting his EGR hoping he dosn't ge caught by Mr Smog man and fabbing up his Throttle and TV linkage hoping to get it right so his trans doesn't blow.
Just so he can bolt on some vortecs on a mild build 350.
By his posts he said he wants around 280 HP. He can get that from stock heads with a good intake and headers, cam with a aftermarket chip. Without any fabbing at all.
I went over to thirdgen and did a search on 193 heads and found some good stuff. The guy built a set and put them on a van. he has dyno info flow info and track times.
The whole thread is a good read.
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/tbi/283217-garage-ported-193-s.html?highlight=garage+ported+193

Dont laught too hard guys:D
 
i was told by my friend who builds chevy motors. that if i run vortec heads on a non vortec block ill break chit. (motor stuff) is this true or no? Srry for the hijack
 
broncoman6524 said:
i was told by my friend who builds chevy motors. that if i run vortec heads on a non vortec block ill break chit. (motor stuff) is this true or no? Srry for the hijack

being as the blocks are exactly the same as the earlier Single piece rear main seal engines(except they don't have the fuel pump drive shaft hole drilled), He is inncorrect.
 
so you're going to go through all that work reworking heads, and not change the intake. :screwy: the stock intake is a restrictive POS. hell, even leaving the heads stock and swapping the intake wouldnt be that bad of an idea. FWIW, modifying the TV cable bracket isnt that hard.
 
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