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Project Penny - All good things must come to an end

That K5Runner guy on Pirate4x4 recently straightened his front D60 despite having a TON of trusswork and bracketry installed.....

He made large vertical slice(s) in the truss and pulled the tubes into position (which opened up the cuts) then re-welded and reinforced them. I skimmed those posts, but it did seem to work for him and he does pretty hardcore competitive racing with his K5/Buggy.


Might be worth a read. (Post #704)

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/chevy/965353-k5runners-blazer-rebuild-thread.html


-G
 
I actually just saw that today while checking his build thread out on Pirate. Gave me lots of hope for actually being able to fix my junk this weekend haha!

I want to drive this truck again!
 
So, we got after my truck this last weekend to try and correct the camber issues. And unfortunately, the news is not good =/

While we were able to straighten the camber out, the shop did a very poor job overall on the entire swap. This was the first time I was able to actually spend a little bit of time closely inspecting what was done and how and I am not impressed.

Fixing the diff involved cutting the truss on the short side tube. As soon as I finished cutting it popped back straight. With some careful and proper welding we were able to re-weld the truss back up while keeping the camber reasonably straight. Both wheels are now about 1.5 degress off from vertical but that can be corrected with shims now.

We also re-set the toe which was over 1.5" toed out.

Now, the truck still has a tendency to dart when it is turned, but I am attributing that to either being castor or roll steer. I still can't drive it faster than 50mph. Even 40mph it is a handful to keep it between the ditches, forget within the lines.

We also found some other glaring issues with it. The biggest such issue being that when we flipped the diff over to work on it we found that none of the link brackets or the other tabs / mounts had been welded on the underside, only on the top side. We also found that most of the welding on the center section was cold and will fail. The truss was also very poorly cut out and fit to the diff and just plain old looks sloppy.

All the brackets are home-made and none of them are the same size / shape as the others. Poor welding technique was used throughout. The frame mounts are barely adequately braced for a truck this heavy and definitely not positioned where I would put them.

To top it off the coil-overs were set with the transition stops in the wrong spot and it is heavily over-springed (350 over 500). The shock hooks are installed in such a way that they fully leverage against only the top of the frame and are not cross tied.

I've got a lot of work ahead of me to brace this thing up to last for a little while and actually handle properly. The front end unloads really bad when you get on the throttle and causes the roll steer I am feeling. If I am steady on the throttle it drives reasonably straight. There is some bump steer, but nothing too overly bad or tough to correct.

I've decided that I am going to move forwards with a new front diff housing and do all the work myself. I am looking to run a Ruffstuff fabricated housing with a Sixty9 drop out third member. I will have Ruffstuff install one of their low profile trusses and a set of Reid Racing inner Cs as well as provide all the brackets for the links, limit straps and shocks. I'll use all the outers and axle shafts from my existing D60. This should allow me to have a higher clearance, lighter and much stronger axle housing that is actually straight to start and has no tube to center section vulnurability.

I am also going to cut the frame side link bracketry and the shock hoops off to re-do it all with a much better design. I want to build a crossmember / belly pan like Greg has concocted to protect my transmission / transfer case and provide a spot to install the links in such a way as to reduce the roll steer issues I am having with the truck.

I'm sending a message to the company who performed the work to request a refund on labour. To say I am unimpressed is a big time understatement.
 
How are Canada's laws about that? You had a contract and all but will the legal system back you up?
 
I can take them to small claims court but the lawyers will eat up any funds that I get back. If the shop owner is at all honourable is about my only hope. If he refuses to be helpful I will go public with his work quality to warn others.
 
Man, that just sucks. Were you recomended them or something?
 
So, we got after my truck this last weekend to try and correct the camber issues. And unfortunately, the news is not good =/

While we were able to straighten the camber out, the shop did a very poor job overall on the entire swap. This was the first time I was able to actually spend a little bit of time closely inspecting what was done and how and I am not impressed.

Fixing the diff involved cutting the truss on the short side tube. As soon as I finished cutting it popped back straight. With some careful and proper welding we were able to re-weld the truss back up while keeping the camber reasonably straight. Both wheels are now about 1.5 degress off from vertical but that can be corrected with shims now.

We also re-set the toe which was over 1.5" toed out.

Now, the truck still has a tendency to dart when it is turned, but I am attributing that to either being castor or roll steer. I still can't drive it faster than 50mph. Even 40mph it is a handful to keep it between the ditches, forget within the lines.

We also found some other glaring issues with it. The biggest such issue being that when we flipped the diff over to work on it we found that none of the link brackets or the other tabs / mounts had been welded on the underside, only on the top side. We also found that most of the welding on the center section was cold and will fail. The truss was also very poorly cut out and fit to the diff and just plain old looks sloppy.

All the brackets are home-made and none of them are the same size / shape as the others. Poor welding technique was used throughout. The frame mounts are barely adequately braced for a truck this heavy and definitely not positioned where I would put them.

To top it off the coil-overs were set with the transition stops in the wrong spot and it is heavily over-springed (350 over 500). The shock hooks are installed in such a way that they fully leverage against only the top of the frame and are not cross tied.

I've got a lot of work ahead of me to brace this thing up to last for a little while and actually handle properly. The front end unloads really bad when you get on the throttle and causes the roll steer I am feeling. If I am steady on the throttle it drives reasonably straight. There is some bump steer, but nothing too overly bad or tough to correct.

I've decided that I am going to move forwards with a new front diff housing and do all the work myself. I am looking to run a Ruffstuff fabricated housing with a Sixty9 drop out third member. I will have Ruffstuff install one of their low profile trusses and a set of Reid Racing inner Cs as well as provide all the brackets for the links, limit straps and shocks. I'll use all the outers and axle shafts from my existing D60. This should allow me to have a higher clearance, lighter and much stronger axle housing that is actually straight to start and has no tube to center section vulnurability.

I am also going to cut the frame side link bracketry and the shock hoops off to re-do it all with a much better design. I want to build a crossmember / belly pan like Greg has concocted to protect my transmission / transfer case and provide a spot to install the links in such a way as to reduce the roll steer issues I am having with the truck.

I'm sending a message to the company who performed the work to request a refund on labour. To say I am unimpressed is a big time understatement.

That sucks, for the driveability if you have 6+ degrees of caster, and reasonable camber, toe set about 1/8" toe in or a bit more I would say you are dealing with roll steer.

The best way I can describe what we had with Roll steer was feeling like you were on the top of a triangle, steer a bit one way and it was hell getting it back on top of the triangle. As long as the road was straight and not bumpy it wasn't too bad to drive but still if you steered the least little bit (16th turn of the wheel or less) it fell off the top of the triangle and was hell to get back.

Triangulate the lowers to get your roll steer in check, get the lowers as flat as possible as well.
 
That sucks, for the driveability if you have 6+ degrees of caster, and reasonable camber, toe set about 1/8" toe in or a bit more I would say you are dealing with roll steer.

The best way I can describe what we had with Roll steer was feeling like you were on the top of a triangle, steer a bit one way and it was hell getting it back on top of the triangle. As long as the road was straight and not bumpy it wasn't too bad to drive but still if you steered the least little bit (16th turn of the wheel or less) it fell off the top of the triangle and was hell to get back.

Triangulate the lowers to get your roll steer in check, get the lowers as flat as possible as well.

Perfect way to describe how it drives. Trying to hold it on the very top of a triangle... Step on the throttle or the brakes and it tips off the top of the triangle, touch the steering wheel a little bit and off it goes. I cannot get it to drive straight above 45 - 50 mph at all.

I sent the following message to the shop:

Hey,

We got a chance to take a look at correcting the camber on my front diff this last weekend. It winds up that the short side tube had been pulled very hard by the welding that was done on the diff and it popped straight as soon as we cut the truss on the truck.

Overally, I must admit that I am not very impressed with the work done on my truck now that I've had a chance to actually take a close look at it. I have some serious handling issues that are not entirely due to the alignment issues it was suffering from before. It has roll and bump steer issues and lifts / dives too much when you get on or off the throttle.

I realize some of this can be dealt with by properly setting the spring rates (and setting the transition stop up right, the way it was when I got it would cause the upper spring to fully compress before making the transition to the lower spring) but some of it is looking like it will require changes to the link mounting locations. I still have not received a copy of the numbers on the suspension that you guys used, btw.

I also have some serious concerns with the welding that was done on my diff. To set it up on the axle jig we had to cut a notch into one of the steering ram mounts and when we flipped it over we discovered that no welding had been done on the insides of any of the link mounts (which the shocks mount to!) or along the sides of the panhard bar mount where it runs between the two steering mounts on the long side tube. It is obvious that little care or concern was given to the effect of heat shrinking due to welding given the effect it was having on the camber on the short side of the diff.

The truss is not well fitted around the pumpkin and while the welding to the pumpkin itself was cold and did not penetrate well it also looks damn sloppy with all the giant notches all over the place around the ribbing in the center section.

The shock hoops appear to be leveraged on only the top of the frame rails (which are not a strong point on these trucks) and are not cross tied in any shape or form. I am very concerned about how long those hoops and the frame will last once I start using the truck for it's intended purpose.

I understand that my bill was double what I was initally quoted due in part to upgraded parts, additional parts and a scope up in work from the inital quote, but I feel that the ~80hrs charged in labour is not reflected in the product I recieved and I am contesting the labour charges I paid for the work done on my truck. We both know that these projects take a lot of time, but that the shop must absorb some of that time for the fine detail work that takes so long.

I am not trying to hose you guys out of all the labour done and I am not contesting the cost of parts purchased. I understand you are running a business, but I simply cannot stand by idly after dropping well over $6000 in labour for a product that is not becoming of a professional shop.

Given the 15 odd hours of labour already into the truck (At $130/hr shop labour, btw) just to fix issues with the work done on the front diff (welding missed spots, straightening the diff, filling truss gaps etc) and the work that will need to be done to properly brace the shock hoops and potentially re-locate and to brace the frame side link mount locations I am going to request that 40hrs of labour be refunded to pay for the labour needed to fix it. I'll eat the rest of the cost myself.


I'd like to correspond in email or PM so I can keep a record of our conversation.

Thanks

Russell

and got this back:

-To be honest the link calculator is on Daryls personal laptop which is not at the shop 90% of the time I have asked a couple times to bring it in and have forgot about it as of recently so I can make a copy for you from the suspension calculator.

-The diff I myself welded 90% of it personally, there was holes left Intentionally as there were areas that could not be filled to gain access to such as the arb line so we will always leave extra holes open so that it does not fill with mud or debris. and it could easily be pressure washed out.
- Where it was welded to the center section was preheated and welded, where it was welded to the housing was bounced back and forth with time given so the housing did not pretzel.The panhard mount was left open at the bottom intentionally as mentioned above.

-You had a huge amount of welding already down to the housing which I had no idea about prior to you having any sort of a qoute which made it very difficult of building and impossible to be a pre-built truss which it was 1st qouted for.the engie took up the Whole engine bay and with the way your tubes were layed made it impossible to install a over engine cross brace, I was not going to be responsible for changing the way your tubes were layed and made you aware of that prior, you had also told me you were planning on installing a intercooler and were to be re -routing them which would provide a little amount of room to install the brace, so hopefully to help save on the cost of doing it twice it was left wit your knowledge to be done after the fat so to not be done twice.

-I find it hard to believe that after cutting off the truss on the short side that the axle housing poped back into place where you feel it needed to be.
-I had asked for the alignment sheet from the 4 wheel alignment that was said given and was told it was done with a string from yourself prior to all this work being done (through matts pm;s). and not a actual alignment with proper numbers more just numbers to the best of your checking.
-When it was here it was un driveable from the blown out plastic kingpin bushing,there was no cracks in any of the weld's on the short side which you are saying is the problem. only a crack with the long side where it was welded into the center section, there was no leaking from that area also. it was ground out,pr heated and re welded. after fixing the broken pieces on the short side it was checked for straightness and was within spec just over 1* after new parts were installed, as you look at the truss where is the majority of all the welding? passenger side, you are saying this is all coming from the drivers side short side. is there a alignment sheet from previous of this work to after to see what all you are saying?
-The inside of the link mounts were welded to the axle housing, the mounting bottom plates that picked up the bottom coilover mount's were fit with a corner/corner fit which allowed more then adequate amount of weld prep.and did not see the need of also welding the underside.
- How is the top of the frame the weak point compared to the rest of the frame? if the c/o mounts were not outboarded then obviously the shocks would be contacting the frame section would they not be? yes they would which is why they were done like that, We have done it both ways many times with mounting the hoops to the top of the frame or the sides of the frame ultimitely it would be best to tie in a full internal engine bay cage to interior cage,bumper etc.
- The vehicle had very bad driving feel which we wre only able to drive this thing after the fact, your front axle is pushed way to far forward for the steering box which will create very bad bump steer, your steering ratio's are completely wrong which you were aware of but had it like that to get some driving feel from where it was before.
- you had told me from test driving it here it felt just like how it was which is way to responsive for driving down the road at a fater distance.
- the vehicle is not tuned suspension which you were aware of and is set as a starting point.

End result I do stand behind my shops work and I do want you to be happy as a end result. saying that we did a **** job, over charged for hrs,did a crap job on welding, had another shop do 15 hrs of work and will take another 40 + hrs to build a engine craddle is fairly upsetting to me! how about give me a call to talk about things prior I read ever pm given to matt before this pm. I think this should be talked about in person and can be the same way coresponded through pm's email as a hard copy for you no problem. But I do have to ask are you a ticketed fabricator ? or a welder ? I am, as looking at how the engine mounts were done I'm judging things being put done here with a grain of salt. which shop preformed the work done to date with the copy of receipt ? was it your friends shop? was this all done prior to a real alignment done to the truck? Did you make this all known to us before jumping in on this? I dont want to come off caddy in talking with you or any sort of a dink as that is not my intension, and at all the type of person Iam ! Im not just going to push this under the rug so I feel we should talk about this what is a good time to call ?

I don't want to talk on the phone because I am the epitomy of a "nice guy" and cave very quick when it comes to conflict like this. I feel ripped off, I've had multiple people who've seen the truck tell me that the work is not very good (and I felt the same seeing it myself).

I am confident in my measurements with regards to the alignment. I did not bother taking it to a shop just to give him a piece of paper that confirmed my complaints. It was so obviously out of whack that it wasn't even funny.

Bringing up the engine mounts which I slapped together last minute for the first moab run was a bit of a low blow. I just sliced a piece of flat bar with my oxy-acetylene torch and buzzed them in to cross tie them back to the frame some. I know how to weld, but like most guys here I do not have a ticket for it. That doesn't mean I don't know what is a decent weld or not.

What do I do folks?
 
My potential response...

If you would be so kind as to remind Daryl to bring the laptop in, I'd appreciate seeing the numbers on the suspension.
I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you over credentials (or at all), but I've been around welding and fabrication long enough that I know when there is cause for concern. There is a reason why I brought this in to a shop to do the work vs doing it myself but that does not mean that I can't tell the difference between work that is well done and that which could have been done better.

As far as the alignment goes, one look at the front end is all that anyone needed to know there was a problem with the camber. You and I both know perfectly well that accurate results can be acheived with a DIY alignment so there was no need to take it to a shop for a fancy printout of exactly what you'd measure at home. There was no need to waste money to prove an obvious problem. While the plastic bushing was damaged and needed to be replaced / upgraded when you got it, it was not the root cause of the camber problems that still existed when I picked it up.

It was plain and easy to see that the DS wheel was leaned in hard at the top which also caused the passenger side wheel to lean in some as well. When we cut the truss this weekend, the cut immediately split wider and when we measured to figure out how much we had to bend the diff to straighten it out we found it was close enough that the rest of the camber issues can be solved with shims vs bending the diff. Like you said, I never had any complaints with the short side tube when the truck was dropped off, so that was something that happened afterwards.

Yes, the truck was undriveable when I was dropped off but that was the very reason why I brought it to you guys. To fix it! I requested that the diff be repaired and it should have been obvious that something was still wrong and that it needed additional work when a test drive was attempted and it could not be held in a straight line faster than 40 or 50 km/h.

Yes, the steering ratios are not ideal but given that you are a race car driver I would have assumed you would know how to handle a quick ratio steering system and understand that it does not affect steering stability while driving in a straight line or cause the truck to steer itself. I understand and agree that the drag link positioning is not ideal, but the roll steer is not being caused by the steering ratios. Yes, the toe wasn't set right, but that would have taken you 15 minutes with a couple straight edges to set. There is simply no excuse for why my truck was called done when it clearly had some serious problems still.

Of course there is going to be tuning to do to make a suspension perform to it's full potential, but no amount of tuning will fix roll steer problems or keep a shock tower from ripping off the frame, or keep a poorly supported frame side link mount from folding over when side loaded on a rock etc.

I understood that I would likely be installing a cross bar between the shock hoops on my own dime once I ran the intercooler piping. But I would never have thought that the hoops would have simply been welded to just the very top of the frame. I am no stuctural engineer but even I know that it would have been far stronger to have installed the hoop on the side of the frame then tied it back to the top of the frame. There is way less surface area for the hoops to hold onto installed the way they are and they will rip out sooner than later. The frame has very little cross bracing in the center there (no engine crossmember & the engine does not count) and the frame is welded together along the top, not even a solid box. Hardly a structure that should have be depended on to handle the entire force of the heavy diesel engine coming down on the front suspension offroad at speed. If it needed a full engine cage built to do it right, all you had to do was tell me that. I never once complained about the cost of doing the work, I just wanted it done right.

I understand your inclination to be defensive, but take yourself and stand in my shoes for a minute. I just spent over $13 000 and got my truck back in an undriveable condition, which is exactly the reason why I took it in to a shop to have it repaired in the first place. My truck went in, got a bunch of shiny new parts bolted to it and came back out driving worse than it went in. How would you feel if you were me? I am certain you'd be totally pissed off too.

The problems can be corrected, but there is no way I am hauling my truck another 3000km to get it done. The only option for me is to get it done locally. If you want me to issue you receipts for the work done here to repair it and get it to roadworthy status to refund me, I'll do so.

Whatcha figure?
 
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Seems like a pretty good response to me. I'd maybe break it up in paragraphs so it's a little easier to read.

I don't blame you for wanting to talk over the phone. Plus, have written correspondence of what was said and such may come in handy in the future.
 
Seems like a pretty good response to me. I'd maybe break it up in paragraphs so it's a little easier to read.

I don't blame you for wanting to talk over the phone. Plus, have written correspondence of what was said and such may come in handy in the future.

Sorry, the spacing didn't make it from notepad, fixed! :haha:

I made the correction above and sent it. We'll see how it goes. I suspect I'm SOL though.
 
If he gives you a sol message in return probably a good response would be something to the effect of "you burned me and you know it. I hope that no one else gets burned by you the way that I did. And I'm going to do everything I can to ensure that no one does."
 
At what point do you casually mention you are connected to several of the largest Internet forums for offloading and a lot of people in the hobby and industry who would love to hear the great reviews of their work with pictures.
 
Not only is this guy putting your truck on the line, he is putting YOUR LIFE and the lives of others in danger. I would mention something to that extent. God forbid if you weren't aware of it and started driving and something went kooky, then he'd really be bent. I would try and get that point across and make him feel like hes lucky to be getting out easy.
 
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