CK5
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quadrajet: the fuel pump, fuel bowl, and accelerator pump

yes, returnless system

that is a good idea, a recap is overdue.

Give me a few days to find some time and I will put together as you suggest, for now here are the easy answers

  • what has happened
    • holley = fires right up
    • qjet = few revolutions before starting
  • what you've done --> qjet related: filed flat, ultrasonic bath, comp air soap leak check + cliff parts (NAPA accel cup & OEM pwr spring - next teardown replace with Cliffs)
  • what your original goal --> turn key & instant start
  • where you sit right now --> pump - rrrr - pump pump -- rrr -- fire
  • specifics
    • I know you wanted to lower your idling/slow speed rpms, but why? --> wife not so good at clutch + locker + 300hp + crying kids + K5
    • How much lower than factory? --> lugging down to 500 rpm without stall is nice, idle at 600 to 650
    • Hard starts? --> yup
  • List ALL of your specs '74 K5 + '77 355 + ~9.5:1 + RV2-ish cam + tri-y + dual plane + Chevy Perf HEI + 3.08 gear - 32" tires - SM465 + qjet. 2-owner K5, me and grampa, last major rehash was in 1994 by me, grandpa made some changes in early '80s (he was mechanic crew sgt for B-25 in WWII, had his own shop back in the '50s so had an idea what he was doing) drank a bit in later years and put Buick V6 in K5 - at least I know who did what.
 
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~9.5:1 + RV2-ish cam + tri-y + dual plane
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At first glance I see that and think performance = not good driveability/cold starts/idling.

But, you said with the Holly it fires right up. So lets ignore all of that for now.

Whats the carb numbers so I can look it up.

What style choke, manual or electric?

When stone cold, whats the choke plate gap?

Immediately after start up what does the choke plate do?

As its warming up, can you watch the choke plate slowly open, do the step down cams disengage after bliping the gas after warm?

When it is warmed up to temp, how does it run?
 
The performance is not all that much, the goal was low-end for offroad, small valve heads and stuff like that - it was professionally built by these guys, APM Custom Engines, they talked me out of all the high school kid stuff I planned, solid engine, idles really nice, good torque from low.

17056208

Choke?
I confess, and I can tell already you will not like this - no choke plate. Sometimes - this is the basis of my many attempst to figure out why - it starts just fine without a choke.

What style choke?
-It is stovepipe heater choke - I recently changed to electric but have not adjusted it yet. Here is my defense, I wanted to separate the choke from the startup. Once it starts consistently, even if it is a little off, then I will add the choke and get that last little bit of nice startup.

When it is warmed up to temp, how does it run?
-Runs nice, even before warmed up. About a minute of 1,000rpm idle and it is solid, at 120 deg F to 140 deg F, I put in gear and drive it easy until warmed the rest. Drives fine.

Next steps:

  • check the voltage at the coil
  • measure how much fuel evaporates from the bowl over two days
  • reinstall the choke plate
 
R4-M4MC Sound right? The number matches up with the stove pipe choke. Which IS a good system that works! On my 77 it was nice and reliable.

Yes, you're right, I don't like the no-choke plate, how do you expect it to start up? :doah: It needs to be there, almost fully closed when cold, you'll have to check your spec sheet, but somewhere around 1/8" open. Its been a while, but something a long the lines of when the engine cranks it snaps fully closed, then after start up it opens that 1/8" from one of the vacuum break linkages pushing it that 1/8" open, and runs that way until it begins to warm up.

So if I had to guess, warm/hot starts easy peasy, right?
 
The performance is not all that much, the goal was low-end for offroad

And on a completely different note. you don't need power and performance for off-road. Your 3.08 gears are the culprit, not the engine. A bone stock tired 'ol 350 with 200,000 miles will give you more performance off road if you had 3.73 or 4.10 gears than your built up 355 with 3.08s.
 
it absolutely pain's me to see someone thinking a Holley is better than a quad in anything other than a big pony track car..
 
@ryoken, I know. Trust me, I am trying so hard to show that old smogger holley I got on sale, that it was leaving something on the table. So far, I just cannot. Once I fixed the holley inherent off-angle flooding problem, it ran fine.

That said, once I figure out the q-jet hard start - which I now suspect is low voltage at the coil and we all know with choke all will be better - that holley is dust.
 
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@MrSchaeferPants I super appreciate that you guys are talking with me, so understand I have deep respect and gratitude here.

Let me address your concerns so I can show that this is a real issue and not just what uncle Tom calls 'can't fix stupid':


  • Stovepipe: I also like the stovepipe. The direct relation to actual engine temperature. For now I use an electric choke just because it is simple. Plus I already have the hot wire there from the holley
  • No Choke!: My throttle plates are fully closed. It seemed like the choke is redundant, once I engage the fast idle then I agree, the choke plate is necessary when the throttle plates are opened by the cam. Right now my fast idle is disconnected. (EDIT: later I learn that the choke is not about rich air/fuel at start up, it is about creating vacuum in the venturi to pull fuel)
  • Warm starts easy?: This is why I did not put the choke right back on after untangling what was choke, idle, throttle, leaks, etc. There is something more going on. It does not start easy when warm. Sometimes it does. I don't want to mask the problem with a functioning choke.
  • Remove the choke for power?: No, I will leave that one for my bros. Power is not the goal. Truck is for wife, goal is driveability, like a cadallac.
  • 3.08 gears!: The engine build is not purely for power. I will be honest, at 17 it was a little about power. But I also knew what 4.10s would do to gas mileage and cruising down the highway at that rpm just seems wrong. With the 465 in low, it crawled good enough for anything I found to drive. The downside, the 3rd to 2nd downshift is wrong for city driving. Remember this K5 had a buick v6 when I got it (in retrospect I should have kept it in the K5). I had no parts to swap, even the exhaust had been cut and welded to fit the v6 manifolds. Back in '94 we did not have pick-and-pull or ebay, and believe me the local junkyard saw a high school kid from a mile away. Even CK5 is a blessing. Back in '94 I'd go to the junkyard just to see how it all went together then talk to anyone that knew anything. The only 'hot' part I have is that GM Perf HEI, and even then it was not much more than the regular one - mostly I just did not trust the pep boys taiwan rebuild.
Again, super thankful you are reading this.
 
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@MrSchaeferPants, I think you might be close. Let see if I understand this:

  • idles fine after startup and driveability is fine with some warmup
  • no need for fast idle cam and stepping
  • no fast idle cam means the throttle plates are fully closed
  • throttle plates fully closed so no need for choke
  • yes, I agree, the choke should be there, but for testing purposes it is temporarily not.
Here is what I just thought: Do the throttle plates have to be cracked open to start? Even if no fast idle is wanted? Then, the choke plate is necessary along with the fast idle cam, the choke heat source, and choke pulloff. I assumed the throttle can be fully closed at startup since the plates are fully closed at idle and the idle circuit handles the air requirements?


Maybe there is more to the cracked throttle plates + choke + pull-off startup action you described than I gave credit.

The way I understand it, on a warm day, with the throttle plates fully closed, it should start right up after one accelerator pump shot. Maybe it wants some pedal for a few seconds to idle up to over come cold engine friction and some poor fuel atomization but that should be it.
 
throttle plates fully closed so no need for choke

Not true. The primary plates are connected via the accelerator cable. Yes, at idle they are fully 'closed', and only move if you press the pedal. However, there is a small 1/16" (or smaller) gap all the way around the plates. This airflow gap is all that is required to start and allow the engine to idle. Even that tiny gap must be fully closed at start up, this is why there's a choke plate. To completely and fully close at the moment of start up.

Do the throttle plates have to be cracked open to start?

See above. They should remain fully closed, resting against the throttle plate stops. And when rebuilding, your books should also say to make sure they're perfectly centered on the throttle shaft (and the respective carburetor walls). If you think of the throttle plates being open during start up in conjunction with the step cams, its just fast idling to warm it up quicker. Same thing can be achieved by barely pressing the accelerator pedal and holding it there for a minute.

Even if no fast idle is wanted? Then, the choke plate is necessary along with the fast idle cam, the choke heat source, and choke pulloff. I assumed the throttle can be fully closed at startup since the plates are fully closed at idle and the idle circuit handles the air requirements?

Your idle circuits is the fuel side of the equation, the tiny bits of air that enter are more related to fuel bleed off or vacuum issues with liquid in a tube (the circuit). (E.g. dunking a straw in a glass of water, and holding your thumb over the top of the straw) The only air side of the equation is what passes through the throttle plates.

Fast idle, the step cams, idle circuits, choke pulls-offs, etc. This is all 'fine tuning' idling characteristic improvements. Think; a carburetor works, but these specific things makes it work better. So lets ignore them all for the time being and focus on the hard starts.


Maybe there is more to the cracked throttle plates + choke + pull-off startup action you described than I gave credit.

The way I understand it, on a warm day, with the throttle plates fully closed, it should start right up after one accelerator pump shot. Maybe it wants some pedal for a few seconds to idle up to over come cold engine friction and some poor fuel atomization but that should be it.

I hate to use the term 'warm day', as even a 90 degree day, a stone cold engine's choke plate should be fully closed. So lets think of an already warmed up engine. It should start perfectly with one pump if you've let it sit for a minute.
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So here's a test, ignoring everything other than the hard starts when cold. Cover the air horn with your hand as if it was the choke plate. Have someone crank the engine. Does it immediately start? (For the most part). The second it starts, remove your hand. Does it kill the engine, or if it does still run, does it run poorly for a few moments.

Test 2: Wait an hour after test one. Cover the airhorn with your hand again like test 1, have a friend start the engine. Immediately after start up, slightly tilt part of your hand and allow a very small amount of air enter. How does it run? Can you make it run better or worse by moving your hand.


Per the other problem with occasional hard starts when warm, and not wanting to goof with THAT issue by installing the choke plate. If it were me, I'd start with each problem individually, and fix it. If you can 100% fix the cold starts, then move to warm starts, whether it changes or messes with the warm starts or not. That can be addressed afterwards.

EDIT: And after re-reading this, during your rebuild, how snug was the primary throttle shaft? That's a pretty common issue with it being worn out, allowing extra air to enter when its not supposed to.






As far as thinking no need for a choke plate when the throttle plate is fully closed. I know all of us say this from time to time: If GM (or Rochester in this case) put it there, they did so for an absolute and definitive reason. These guys are leaps and bounds smarter than us. 99.9% of the time we have issues with these old rigs, is when we the silly owners try and 'change' things. Every square inch of that carburetor, every part, every clearance, size weight and shape- was designed to perfection. A quadrajet is the pinnacle of carburetor design. Its the closest thing to fuel injection there is. Rochester continued to design carburetors up until the late 80s, when all other designs (Edlebrock, Holly, Daemon, Webber, Stromberg) are all based off carburetor engineering from the 50s-60s. That's why Quadrajets run so well, and that's why they're so much more complex and hard to tune than all others.

For example, in one of the two books, Roe's or Ruggles. There's an entire page dedicated to the various metal linkages. Stressing the point that even the most minute of tweaks of some of these linkages can give you idling problems. That's how perfectly they're designed.
 
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@MrSchaeferPants


  • Good idea to choke the carb and see how it responds - that should split the problem in half. This weekend I will give that a try.
  • Ok, I see. The airflow gap around the throttle blades must be fully closed at start up. It seems like the choke has some gap around it too, but I follow you on this.
  • The hard starts when warm is consistent, occasionally it starts with one pump and one revolution.
  • The primary shaft is more-or-less snug. Not as good as it could be but OK. A spray of brake cleaner does not change the idle much. A little if I really spray right on the shaft.
  • If excess airflow at startup might be the problem - I have ports that are plugged and some that are not. When all the ports were plugged (save dist & vac gauge, but these don't bleed) I found that the idle adjustment was skewed all the way to lean. So, I added a 'dummy' hose, from the aircleaner port to manifold vacuum on the base plate, that just adds air so I get idle adjustment in the middle of the band. Some of these had thermatic switches on the vacuum ports. Could I be pulling too much air through a port at startup?

I know, qjets are generations ahead of holley, '50s tech versus '60s tech. Even in the tech report the designer of the qjet published - linked in the first post to this thread - he admits they forgot to include the aircleaner in their calculations to size the primary bores - they are oversized. The original plan was for just two big giant bores for everything, but they couldn't get the low speed parking lot driveability - so they added primaries. Then the bean counters got involved, and locked the secondaries out until after 60% throttle, against the designers advice. He says with 400cid the secondaries are basically good for the last 20% of horsepower, they were supposed to transfer much sooner. It is a compromised design like anything. So, yeah, I did question the value of the choke as a possibly needlessly complicating devise in my warm climate.
 
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I look forward to seeing your results when you test it with your hand.


Here's the main theory to ponder:

Every gasoline powered engine, from a car to a weedwacker has a choke. What is a choke, and what does it do? A choke does what the name implies, it 'chokes' the engine of air. The choke itself is usually a metal plate, the choke plate. Whether it's operated via a stove pipe, manual cable, or electronic and bi-metal springs it doesn't matter, the choke itself is that actual metal plate. Without it, its hard to start, but it can. Have you pulled a lawnmower or weedwacker without the choke set? Its difficult, but enough yanks can eventually start it. In the case of a small simple engine like a lawnmower or weedwacker, starting it w/o the metal choke plate, is accomplished by yanking, and yanking that string, until enough fuel has entered the carburetor, and the fuel itself is now 'choking' the engine's air supply. And that is why it started w/o using the choke switch.

The throttle plates don't choke the engine. And a carburetor doesn't pump fuel to the engine (minus the accelerator pump when you press the pedal). Engine vacuum draws gas from the carburetor. Without the choke plate closing off air supply, the vacuum cannot pull fuel from the idle circuits.

Let me back up. We know a cold engine requires a more enriched air/fuel ratio to start. But why, and how. The engine is cold, thus the air is cold. Cold air is more dense therefore you need less of it. This is part 1 of the choke plate, reducing the volume of that cold dense air.

Part 2, you've now reduced air volume, how do you increase fuel volume? With vacuum. Air sucked into the engine will take the path of least resistance. If there's no choke plate, air will feed into the engine. When the choke plate is closed, and less air can enter the engine, where will that force of vacuum come from? Your fuel idle circuits, its now sucking more fuel because in a vacuum, SOMETHING has to give. And what gives, what replaces that vacuum instead of air, is fuel being sucked from the idle circuits. And that enriches your air/fuel.


The choke will have SOME gap around it, otherwise it couldn't move, and you do need SOME air. But its designed and measured in conjunction with your fuel to provide the best enriched mixture to enter the engine. Look into a weedeater carb, the choke plate will have either a small gap around it, or maybe 4 tiny holes drilled in the middle of the circular choke plate.

After the engine starts, it no longer needs such a high vacuum to draw fuel, because the pistons are now moving fast, and sucking in much air, very quickly. This is where the choke pull off comes into play, it now needs to open the choke plate a tiny bit (that 1/8") to allow more air, and simultaneously lessening the vacuum on the idle circuits. And as it warms up, now your stove pipe-or-electronic operated bi-metal springs, slowly fully open the choke plate, allowing more air and that passing of more air, is enough to draw the fuel from the circuits.

All these small clearances make a huge difference. Whether its a throttle plate, choke plate, changing jet sizes, vacuum leaks from a bad throttle bushing or bad gasket in the carburetor or intake manifold. Huge differences.


And remember, our right foot on the skinny pedal doesn't control fuel, it controls air. Carburetor or fuel injection. Car or lawnmower. The operator controls air. So our term 'give it some gas' is kind of a misnomer.
 
As far as the throttle shaft. Spraying it does not change the idle much. A little if I spray it right on the shaft.

That little change, is a big change. There should be 0. Spraying carb cleaner or any other spray is helpful, and hurtful. Since its a spray, some of that atomized cleaner can enter the carburetor and mask diagnosis. I prefer a propane torch. That being said, ideally if you had some putty, or play-doh, you could form it around the throttle shafts, block all incoming air, and not affect what enters through the throttle plates, it would be more accurate. For example, if everything on your carb/engine seemed perfect, except one small minor idling problem, and you diagnosed that to the throttle shaft by covering the external shaft openings with play-doh, and then it ran perfectly. There would be your answer, in that scenario.

The best way to diagnose, is with 100% of the carb being hooked up as normal, that way you're less likely to receive false readings. Being in CA, if you have to comply with strict standards, that'd be the way I would diagnose step by step. The thermal valves on the thermostat for example, I would hook up per the emission diagram (with new hoses) and go from there. Without ECUs on these trucks, its up to you to make the connection between physical problems (hose with a hole in it) and the fine-tuning problems.
 
As for oem vac hoses. This is a'74 so it is emissions exempt, all it had anyways was a pcv and that is still there. The qjet I have on there is not oem, it is for an automatic and mid to late '70s so it has more ports than I have things to plug-in. Hence the workaround 'dummy' hose just to add some air to center the idle adjustment band. The pcv is already a huge vacuum leak and it wanted more. Other than that I have only a hose to the dist and another to the vac gauge, neither leak.

Test 1: measure fuel bowl evaporation. In 2 hours it lost 3/16 inch of fuel. Based on modeled evaporation i posted earlier in this thread it should lose another 3/16 inch in the next 24 hours. Nearly half an inch of fuel evaporated total.

Test2: hold hand over choke and start. Well, it did start better, a lot better. But, i need to give it another test in the morning when it is cold. I want to see if it is repeatable.

Intuition right now. I have two or more issues. No choke or fast idle is not helping, and the fuel is evaporating. I only drive this mon and thur, so it might be going dry inbetween. I need to verify that still.

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It is the choke. Thank you for staying with me and sorry for all the wrong turns. @MrSchaeferPants, I have learned something. If I understand now, the choke is not so much about limiting the air as much as creating a higher vacuum than the starter can create. That vacuum is needed to pull fuel. The choke is above the venturi so the venturi is under a vacuum. I assume that explains why fuel injection does not have a choke, no need for a vacuum to pull fuel.

It starts right up now. I tore the carb down today and added Cliff's power metering spring, accelerator pump, and fuel valve. Runs stronger now. In the picture Cliff's accelerator pump is on the right. The power circuit spring shown next the the accelerator pump is the oem spring, Cliff sent a blue spring that is shortrt and a bit stronger. As the vacuume drops the spring will push the fuel rods up earlier and meter more fuel. I also disconnected the secondary air valve to dashpot link. It is more responsive, but I cant just mash the gas to the floor or it will bog. I also pulled out the plug from the empty auxilary pod, it will hold fuel, and that should mean after evaporation the remaining fuel level will be higher. Around the headers where the fuel line is I added heat shielding.

Notice the dummy air hose to the choke housing, this is just to balance the idle air. I need to get a longer gose and port to one of the manifold vacuum ports in the base. With the electric choke the air will cool the coil and slow the choke warmup.

In the morning I will measure voltage at the distributor both while cranking and before cranking.

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Glad to see the cold start issue is solved :waytogo:


Now, the choke in your picture confuses me. The body of it is a hot air choke, and you put an electric choke cover on it. So whats the plan here? And if you're switching to electric, why are you hooking a hose to it? You want to slow down warm up? And why? :confused:
 
The hose is temporary.

If I dont have that hose then the idle ajustment is skewed all the way to lean. The hose adds air so I can adjust the idle circuit. With some help here on ck5 I figured the carb idle is designed to have a degree of air through these ports. I did not have any choke parts (had to find them on ebay). I had put a cap on the hot air housing port. That was the most obvious missing source of air, so I put that hose on there and it ran much better. Idle adustment is now about midway. I will buy a longer hose and connect it to a manifold vacuum port in the base plate.

I asume the electric choke is fine in the hot air choke body. It works fine sofar. Once it is not sucking cold air it should work better. I have the stove pipe parts now (ebay find)and I will probably give that a try too and see what I think between electric or stove pipe.
 
Electric is ok. The way to make it better is by attaching the switched 12v wire to a oil pressure switch, then to the choke, so it ONLY runs if the engine is running. That way, if you key on the ignition, but do not start the vehicle, the spring won't heat up and move the choke open, before you start the vehicle. That housing is fine if you cap the tube.

My favorite choke is the divorced choke that has the bi-metal spring bolted on the intake manifold's crossover tube. No electricity, mechanical, simple, always works. The engine stays warmer longer than the carb. So the integral choke, like the electric, is on or its off. The divorced choke with bi-metal spring on the intake manifold, will be at the position- of the temperature of the engine.

I think your issue of connecting a hose to that tube is masking another issue. It shouldn't need anything but to be capped off. Originally the stove pipe design that choke was used for is a 'controlled vacuum leak' to bring hot air from the stove pipe to the springs.

If without it, you're too lean, something else is wrong. Air is entering from elsewhere. If you cap off that tube on the choke, and that rear port (usually used for vacuum for a brake booster). There's some other issue.
 
I did not explain the 'lean' very well. The idle screw is lean because the air/fuel is rich. I had the idle screws a qrt turn from bottomed out before it wasn't running rich. I added air to lean it out so I could back-out the idle screws a turn. When they are bottomed like that they don't respond very well. I guess I did not explain all that too well.
 
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