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Rivets vs. bolts

thatK30guy

thatK30guy

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Customer asked me about removing all the rivets from his frame prior to sandblasting and painting and then assembling it all back together with nuts and bolts. I replied that while it was doable it would be very, very time consuming and therefore expensive on the labor side.

My ponderings are what or how would you go about using the fasteners? I'm thinking flange bolts and nuts. Period. With some Lock-Tite of course.

Or would you do regular grade 8 bolts with flat washers on both sides and/or lock washer and nut or nylock nut?

Lets hear your thoughts. I want to get a calculation for the total number of hardware to get for an estimate.
 
I would do flange bolts and and split lockwasher on the nut side. Or nylocks
 
grade 8 flanged bolt and flanged, pinched nut...
 
I like those ideas.

Grade 8 flange bolt / bracket / frame / split lock washer / grade 8 pinch flange nut. With Lock-Tite, too. And fine thread of course.

What kind of torque numbers are we looking at for tightening down?
 
thatK30guy said:
I like those ideas.

Grade 8 flange bolt / bracket / frame / split lock washer / grade 8 pinch flange nut. With Lock-Tite, too. And fine thread of course.

What kind of torque numbers are we looking at for tightening down?
Click to expand...

i wouldn't even bother with a split washer.. the ovalized pinch lock nuts are pretty unbeatable... I buy em by the box from mcmaster..
 
Hope the guy has deep pockets--I spent 11 bucks at a local hardware store to buy just TWO grade 8 bolts,nylocs and washers not long ago!..(not flanged bolts either!)..1/2" x 4" bolts...I had grade 2's ,but wouldn't trust them for what I was doing with them..

I bet it'll cost 500 bucks for the hardware easy,unless you can make a bulk order at a large supplier and get a good discount...

I'm going to go to Tractor Supply to buy bolts from now on,they sell them by the pound,not individual prices,both grade 5 and 8...only bummer is the two new stores they recently built are both 10 miles away,I'm dead center between both of them,and gas & time makes paying more at the closer stores worth it sometimes,especially if they are for a job I'm not doing for myself and aint paying for them...I thing grade 5's were about 4.50 a pound and 8's were six and change last time I was in there...thats a lot cheaper than paying peicemeal prices at Lowes or other mom & pop hardware stores..

I think grade 5's might be sufficient on your job,or maybe grade 8's on the spring hangers and critical suspention parts,and grade 5's on the cab brackets and other non-structural things...

One thing I noticed after removing many spring hangers off frames at the junkyards--not many of the frame rails had rust under the flanged area that bears against the frame--most still had shiny paint under there--so it might not be worth all the time,effort and expense to take them all off ,just to make sure that new paint gets there..it depends on whether the truck wil be show quality or just a nice daily driver,etc..chances are good it'll never rust under the hangers,we did many frame up ametuer restorations and just sandblasted the frames ,left all the spring hangers on them,and they showed ro rust after several years..
 
like these that I used for my bumper... hard to see the ovalized on it..


000_0001-6.jpg
 
grade 8 bolts

hardened washers both bolt and nut face

crimped / pinched lock nut

and bolt to have shank just to the point of filling the holes and washers make it all perfect and tight with NO bottom out before tight.

otherwise walking around /flexing can and does flatten out threads on bolts and makes more play.

and i dont use lock washers anymore seen to many walk out under load from cheep quality these days.
 
diesel4me said:
Hope the guy has deep pockets--I spent 11 bucks at a local hardware store to buy just TWO grade 8 bolts,nylocs and washers not long ago!..(not flanged bolts either!)..1/2" x 4" bolts.....
Click to expand...


you got screwed. way to much for that little qty . i would never go there or would i have ever purchased at that price. :doah:
 
True. Lock washers break, often. Then once half the washer gets spit out there's zero clamping force.

Stover nuts, is what ryoken described. They're the best imo too. Nylocks are "ok" but not as good as a stover. Stovers and flat washers and hammer them up. Good to go.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk
 
One other thing to keep in mind if you are doing a paint and reassemble. Is what kind of paint and how thick is it going to be. Thick paint or coatings like endura even if only a few millimeters thick on both surfaces will pound out from vibration and flex then you will loose clamping force again. That'll cause you problems too.


For example, I can't install Cat D11 tracks without wire wheeling the master link and master pad mount surface to bare steel. Cause even though the master pad bolts are torqued to around 2400 ft lbs that cat paint pounds out, the master link looses enough clamping force to get real ugly, real fast.

And that's only on a Dozer at 4 mph, I can imagine a truck frame getting loose on the highway at 65 mph.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk
 
Size is another consideration.

When I replaced my B52's and ORD shackle flip brackets I thought the included 3/8" hardware was a little loose in the rivot holes. This may be normal or it could have been wear on my frame. Regardless, I redrilled the brackets and the frame to 7/16" for a better fit.
 
I was thinking of drilling all the holes out to slightly larger also.

I buy all my fasteners from McMaster/Carr. The bulk packages are unbelievably cheap. Even for grade 8 flange nuts/bolts.

Guy emailed me and asked about using stainless bolts for "show". He even went as far as to mention ARP's stainless 12 point head nuts and bolts.
While I've got the ARP catalog, I read the tolerances for the strengths of the bolts. They look like they could handle the job so lets hear your thoughts on the ARP's.

And yes, I know, stainless ARP = mucho dougho. $$$$$
 
stainless = big no no . way to weak . this has been talked about here or other forums before. and also threads gal up real easy and must use copper anti seize if i recall and that stuff is not cheep over reg old aluminum based anti sezi .

if he hants show then chromed steel.

but dont forget getting them tourqed will prob break the finish off and look like crap. :doah:
 
Totally stainless makes bolts rated for this kind of service, they are expensive but it would be blingin for sure
 
contrasting, blingy frame hardware = 80's teal/fuscia showcar ghey...
 
sweetk30 said:
you got screwed. way to much for that little qty . i would never go there or would i have ever purchased at that price. :doah:
Click to expand...


Yeah,I told the salesman that I'd NEVER buy a bolt there if it were ME paying for it!--it was either buy them there ,4 minutes away,or waste a few hours going to a cheaper place and pray they had what I needed..


I buy as little as possible at that place--there is a neat old time hardware store a few towns away that has good stuff at cheap prices,but the drive time and gas price negates any real savings,so I only go there when I'm in that area...
Lowes, I can almost see from my house,but they sell them one at a time at unreal prices too,and the bolts are of unknown origin or quality,they never have more than a few grade 5's or 8s on hand too,but tons of cheap grade 2's or carriage bolts and plain washers,nuts and lockwashers..

I buy a lot of bolts at swap meets and flea markets cheap in bulk whenever possible,rather than pay top dollar at industrial supply stores..I always seem to end up with millions of grade 2's and hardly any grade 5 or 8 bolts,despite buying a lot of both--but since I use most of them on lawn mowers,its not a big deal..sometimes you need a stronger bolt though..
 
I replaced all the rivets on a 1952 Ford pickup. I used grade 8 black bolts so they could be painted. Still have four boxes of the bolts left over.

BTW buy bolts from Fastenal, TIFCO, Rawson, or some supplier. Prices are much better than the local hardware store.
 
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