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roll cage to body or frame?

Has anybody ever scene a cage that was properly bolted to the body, break loose during a roll? A roll while going down the freeway at 80MPH would probably be the worst thing, unless you are tumbling down the side of a cliff while off road. Aren't most roll overs in off road situations at fairly low speeds? More like a flop than a roll? Anyways, I am bolting mine to the body, and possibly tying the seats and seat belts into the cage.
 
rdn2blazer said:
can you explain canalever joint, I'm noy sure what you mean.

Basicly solidly fixed wether it be welding, bolting etc...I was trying to come up with the term to describe it and thats the best I could do.

I guess I also used the term 1 DOF too... DOF = Degree Of Freedom. Most of the bolt/bushing setups you see use a leaf spring type bushing that won't resist pivoting in one direction but resist bending and movement in the other directions.
 
PhoenixZorn said:
He meant to say Cantilever... which basically if I'm getting his meaning correctly, looks like a "r"...

Yep sorry guys I have the mind of an engineer not a writer :o I'm sure you will find lots of spelling/gramer mistakes in my little rant... ;)
 
It all depends on what your intended use for the truck is.

If you want the truck to be comfortable for you and passengers to ride in, then tie the cage to the body. When the cage is tied to the body, then the tubes can be mounted out of the way of interfering with your comfort zone. This will work fine, and will provide better than normal protection, as long as you do not plan on crashing or rolling at high speeds.

The second step up is to tie the cage to the body mounts. This will allow you to tie the cage to the frame without extensive frame modifications, but the body mount locations will dictate where the tubes are located, which may not be in a comfortable position. Tying the tubes to the body mounts will afford you a bit more safety for slightly higher speed crashes.

The third step up is a complete frame to cage tie in, which requires extensive modification, has no consideration for comfort level what so ever, and is considered for all out racing. This step will afford you the most protection, and is intended for crashes at very high speeds.
 
Did I miss something here? I keep seeing stuff like "racecars" do it this way, etc. However race cars are not articulating over boulders and probably aren't built on frames that are designed to flex. My biggest peeve in this thread is all the racecar comparisions, because these trucks are not going 200 mph or whatever. They also are not going down flat paved road. It's an apples to oranges comparison and should not be used.

The whole issue as I understand it with our trucks, is that the frame is designed to flex and is regarded as pretty weak design in general. When you tie into the frame you now are stiffening the frame where it is attached, however the areas that are not stiffened will still flex. Now you have rigid sections of frame and sections that flex. How is this a good thing? If it is done right then attaching the cage to the frame is fine, but in reality 99% of the people building their trucks on this site (me included) are not knowledgeable enough to do this right.

I am welding mine to the body as well as using bolts. My ideal cage will be basically a pod where the seats, belts and cage will all be one. If the body detaches from the frame so be it.

__________________
'77 K5, Warn M8000, 402/350/203, 44/14bff, 4"/36" Irok's

http://www.krazyk5.com

http://community.webshots.com/user/trcksr4me
http://community.webshots.com/user/trcksr4me2
 
Im with you on the whole racing thing,
This is my opinion so take it as such:
I think that the strongest way to build a cage is to tie it to the frame,
However, i would think that most of the things we do would be low speed flops, and/or rollovers,
yes yes i know SOMETIMES we get the high-speed rollovers happed, where a low speed flop turns into a wicked rollover because of a steep hill.
I am new to the sport, and im not shure how much this happens, Mabey alnog with most crashes these type of accident's could be avoided by a little common sence.

So for me, im going with a exo cage and i will build/design it with someone who really know's thier stuff. I will make it as strong as possible, and hope i never need to use it :D
Exo for me because i dont want to replace/fix the body every time i flop it :D
 
trcksr4me, and surpip, dont get peeved, relax! this is just a discussion here. I understand rock rigs are not traveling at high speeds so for lack of a better discription maybe the term "racecars" or "racing" is not the best term to use. I am just saying that for the most strength in a cage it seems as though going to the frame has the most structural integrity. I also said tha yes I feel it has to be a minimum of at least a 10 point cage design, and yes it should be tied into the body aswell. have you seen that video of that jeep climing patato saled hill? its going maybe 2 mph does a wheel stand on a bump rolls back over on its top and rolls 9 times!. that maybe low speed but that roll bar or cage thats in that took some brutal hits. the frame may have been desighned to flex, but not to the extreem that rock crawling puts it through. yes if you have stiff points and flex points in the frame thats not good, somethings going to crack or you stress welds easier. thats why I say 10 point minimum. I will plan doing more. I dont care about cost or comfort so much.
 
anyone else have an openion on this?. I have pondered a bolt to frame cage too, would have to be bolted very well though, again at many points to frame.
 
TrcksR4ME said:
The whole issue as I understand it with our trucks, is that the frame is designed to flex and is regarded as pretty weak design in general. When you tie into the frame you now are stiffening the frame where it is attached, however the areas that are not stiffened will still flex. Now you have rigid sections of frame and sections that flex. How is this a good thing? If it is done right then attaching the cage to the frame is fine, but in reality 99% of the people building their trucks on this site (me included) are not knowledgeable enough to do this right.

You don't give yourself enough credate... tying to the frame properly is realy simple. All you have to do is connect your cage to points on the frame that are close or on the suspension mounting points. Just think of ware the forces are being introduced to the frame when flexing...on a leaf spring vehicle they are at the spring hangers.

The fact that our frames flex so much makes the design horable for rockcrawling and off road use. After wheeling and DDing my 79 blazer with 36's for 3 years the body was trashed. I had floped it a couple of times and wrinkled some sheet metal, but had never realy rolled it or done any major structural damage when wheeling. But the body and frame were trashed. All the seams were starting to come appart in the body and the frame was twisted. I had to hold the talegate closed with bungy cords when wheeling because it would pop open when flexing. Without a top on and the rear gate down the bed sides could be floped severial inches by hand. Sitting level the door seals were good; but when flexing you could stick all 4 fingers thru the gap in the door seal area...and forget about opening the doors when flexing.

When I switched bodys I went to a hybrid setup and wheeled a cab and rear exo cage but left the front non caged. I was running like this for 2 years on 44's and wheeling it hard. There was so much frame flex in the front that I coulden't keep hood pins in one piece when wheeling. I always had a couple of bungy cords attatched to the hood by the end of a trail ride. However the frame never cracked on me. I finaly threw away the front sheet metal and tubed in the front. By extending the cage past the engine I lost 200 rti points! I have been running the full exo for 2 years now and the only frame damage I have is ware I landed hard enough on rocks to dent the framerail itself. :blush:
 
I started off with no cage. Body started coming apart from frame flex. Solution was to run cage to frame to stiffen the chassis and add rollover protection. I used bushing assemblies to "isolate vibration". They didn't isolate much. At this point if you're getting serious about tying to the frame, just weld it up, weld the body to the cage and call it good. It's going to be noisy no matter how you slice it if you tie the cage to the frame in any significant way.
My initial cage tied to the nerf bars at the A-pillar and B-pillar with an additional support directly on top of the frame rail at the B-pillar, then tied to the rear bumper at the back of the K5. This worked well. Keep in mind the nerf bars were built as strong outriggers for the cage attachment.

Moral of the story, using the cage to stiffen the frame is essential if you want to use the truck hard, even if it's not in a racing situation. Also, don't plan on isolating much road noise if you tie to the frame.
 
Hossbaby50 said:
I think you can do either. I tied my cage into the body only because I like that idea better. It was explained to me like this.

Your seat is bolted to the body
your seatbelt is bolted to the body
therefore you are bolted to the body

If you get in some sore of nasty rollover that the body starts to come away from the frame you want the cage to go with you which is strapped to the body. Therefore the cage should be mounted to the body.

Harley


Dude, seriously, you think that thin rusted body sheetmetal that the seat and seatbelts are bolted to are going to hold ??? Rust or no rust the floors under the seats crack in these trucks from everyday use let alone a rollover at any speed. Insert cage in place of body in your list and you now move with and are protected by the cage.

The Pod design sounds interesting though. But I would tie into the frame.
 
thanks again guys for all the feedback. I have a good idea how I'm going to do my cage, I will post pics when done.
 
Those who have searched know that I have been very active in these threads in the past, but generally try to steer clear now since I've said all I can say, usually several times.

But I've been watching this thread and I must say, unlike when I first took an interest, it appears that most of the posts are very well thought out (IMO) and closely matched to my views. Even rcurrier44 (and others), who nominally disagrees with me, is only differing in preference, not substance. I lean toward "tie to the body at reinforced body mount points" (built in isolators and works much like factory design) and he leans to "tie to the frame at suspension points" (which I agree with and refer to as "doing it right" as opposed to the typical "tie to frame wherever convenient for the cabin cage mounts".) For me it's a matter of diminishing returns. Going beyond the "cabin pod" design is just not necessary for what we do IMO, and the trade-offs (cost, complexity, maintenance and repair complications, fatigue issues, extra design overhead, etc.) are just not worth it. But if I was doing SCORE or high speed desert stuff, YOU BETCHA I would be "tying to the frame" (or more likely doing an integral "space frame" tube chassis to be honest). Each person needs to do an honest evaluation of need, budget, and skill before starting a cage project.

Also, many of the points made about racing vs. what we do are correct. Vehicles built for racing, whether full hand build tube chassis or "Rally" type are built for a different purpose with different expected forces, different budgets, and spec sheets (and engineering) that ensure things work right together. You can't just say "they tie to the frame so I'll tie to the frame" and leave it at that. Just like link suspension design, "the devil is in the details" and if you don't pay attention, you'll not only loose the benefits you expect for the extra work and cost, but you quite likely will cause yourself new troubles you don't expect (and may not even realize are related when they materialize).

In summary, I expect VERY few on this site need anything more than a properly designed "pod" style cabin cage (with integral seat and belt mounts). It's simpler/cheaper to build and design, provides more "comfort" for multi-use vehicles, allows for options like replacing the tub/frame without having to hack things apart nearly as much, and so on. For those who like to run the fast stuff and/or really push the extremes (Stephen and others), ditch the whole body (so it's simpler to "do it right", like Beck's) or just simply "have to have the most absolutely hard core rig out there" then you should "do it right" by tying in at the suspension points so that you create, in effect, a "rigid space frame" (like a full tube chassis buggy) that simply happens to utilize a stock ladder frame in it's design/construction. But I would again urge everyone to reconsider using the common dog-leg "easy way" to tie to the frame. The down sides from that FAR outweigh any benefit IMO. That "easy way" is what I have a problem with, and while the "body pod design" does have benefits, I don't believe I've ever said that it was better than "frame connected" for every case, though some seem to have that impression.

Oh, and to be accurate, "cantilever" is technically using a "lever" to support a load. Quite simply, imagine a pry bar stuck under a bolder and over a log like you were trying to lift the boulder. But instead of lifting the boulder, use the lever to hang your hat. You just build a "cantilever hat rack". :D This design is used in many places like free standing balconies and such where a beam is cantilevered over a supporting wall and uses that weight of the roof/wall/floors on the other side to counter balance the balcony weight. The extreme form of this is seen in things like the cantilever shelves at building supplies and such that don't actually extend OVER a support like a simple lever, but the forces/principles are basically the same.
 
Oh, and another thing (sorry, can't help myself). About the frame flex killing the body, the "pod" style cages tied to the body mounts make the body rigid enough to keep it from splitting spot welds and all like it otherwise will be prone to doing. This also gives you built in issolators at the factory mounts. To repeat myself, IMO, this is the absolute best design for a multi-use (daily driver and serious off road) vehicle because it provides excellent safety without the leaks, squeaks, and vibration which generally go along with even the best frame mounted cages where the body is retained mostly intact. This is NOT the best solution for everyone, but it IS the best solution IMO for the vast majority of people who are active on this site.
 
baddog, I apriceiate your openion very much. the reason I started this thread is to hopefully learn something. I read plenty of posts before, but I felt I needed some more info. plus I had not given my openion on the subject and wanted to bounce my view off of the other ck5 members. this is my first 4wd I am in the process of building. I do tend to lean towards building more overkill then not for protection. I certenlly am not an expert in design and construction of roll cages, but I do have confidence in my abilitys as a fabricator and machinist to build a safe and stout cage that is vary well thought out and constructed properly. will it be more than I need considering my offroad skill level, probably, I want to build a rig thats capabable to handle anything, than work my driving skill up to what my rig can handle. It might not be how others would do it but it works for me. I'm glad you had intrest in this thread on this subject, and had something to say.
 
If the term "racing" is offensive, then lets use the term "special needs competitiveness". Is that politically correct enough? :D
 
rdn2blazer said:
...but I do have confidence in my abilitys as a fabricator and machinist to build a safe and stout cage that is vary well thought out and constructed properly.

I think that is the key here, knowing you have the skills to do it right and taking the time to do it right. Which ever way ones goes, if this is the case I think you'll be ok whichever method (frame vs body) you use.

Frankly, I will feel plenty safe with a cage welded to the body, considering the type of wheeling I do. I have never rolled or flopped my truck, and if I do, I do not plan on it being a regular event, ie I don't want/need a cage that will hold the truck together if I were to roll it every weekend. I also have a good solid body with hardly any rust so I am starting with a good base IMO.
__________________
'77 K5, Warn M8000, 402/350/203, 44/14bff, 4"/36" Irok's

http://www.krazyk5.com

http://community.webshots.com/user/trcksr4me
http://community.webshots.com/user/trcksr4me2
 
Very informative baddog. Sounds like you know what you're talkin about. I can see the light on both sides now! :D lol Thanks for takin the time to post up.
 
I have enjoyed reading this thread and learning about cages. I would like to see some pictures to go along with the various choices of mounting. I eventually want to put my own cage in like many others have posted.
 
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