My wife had a great idea too, I'm going to ship the DeltaPAG fans back in the SPAL boxes. That should go over well.
CK5
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That will be hilarious,l I bet it will go over well.
I just realized I’ll be working near your area soon. I’m across the 10 from Arizona mills on baseline, I’ll have to come check this out.
I just realized I’ll be working near your area soon. I’m across the 10 from Arizona mills on baseline, I’ll have to come check this out.
The plan is to take it to Firebird for midnight drags on the 20th.
We did that to one of our suppliers. We kept fighting their gear for weeks to make it work, we ordered what should have been spec’d originally, packaged the garbage gear in the competitor boxes, and shipped it back. I’m talking pallets of these things. Vp’s got involved once the package hit the dock. It was great.
He just keeps going, but won't answer the simple question "why can the cheap Spal fan get the job done, but your fancy brushless fan can't". He just keeps blaming my cooling stack and refuses to answer the question other than to trash talk Ron Davis and everything I did. If my cooling stack sucks so bad, why can this inferior fan keep it cool?
I'm tempted to put the whole thread up here, it's a long read though.
I'm tempted to put the whole thread up here, it's a long read though.
I tell you what, I have no interest in purchasing the delta pag fans after this experience of yours.
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The factory Camaro SS fan is a Spal brushless pwm fan and it keeps marc’s blazer swap cooled fine, and you barely hear it running.
The DeltaPAG fans were much quieter than the Spal brushed fans I have, even when they were running at 100%. I think that's the fancy efficient blade design. I'm also hoping that with the Spal fans I can start them off at a slower speed, and ramp them up to keep it quieter.
On the test after I put the Spal fans back in, I drove over to my friends house and was sitting in his driveway idling with the A/C cranked up. The exhaust is so quiet, my friend thought a street sweeper was driving by because of the fan noise
. I'm crossing my fingers that the brushless ones are quieter.
On the test after I put the Spal fans back in, I drove over to my friends house and was sitting in his driveway idling with the A/C cranked up. The exhaust is so quiet, my friend thought a street sweeper was driving by because of the fan noise
. I'm crossing my fingers that the brushless ones are quieter.
I think the blade design has the most to with how much noise they make.
Yes, as an ex submariner, the design looks familiar 
What I was mentioning on the blade design, is that you can have a fancy design that moves good amount of air with no restrictions. But doesn't have the ability to pull air through a bunch of restrictions.
Moving air isn't just about CFM.
I think that's why the thick straight blade ones are working better. They got the azz to pull air through all that radiator and such.
Moving air isn't just about CFM.
I think that's why the thick straight blade ones are working better. They got the azz to pull air through all that radiator and such.
I think is compare it more to torque vs horsepower. The Deltapag has the hp, but no balls.
So why do these big turbo cars use them?
He just told you, hp which means they spin faster to accomplish the task, the good strong fans pull the air at lower speed but with a fat blade.
Toque baby.
Turbo cars go high rpm too.
Like I previously said I can’t read…
You should. Anyone in the business of selling parts that are components of a system should concede the possibility that their parts are not going to work in every system. The problem that's run into so often is one of marketing vs engineering, and marketing rarely concedes, which leads us to shits-ville. Also understanding that there is a place for different levels of component performance, and that that is a good thing, is an important part of this because we all know if you overkill everything you end up with a 8k lb thing thats slow.
Also, policing of our own by telling these experiences, is the only way good business' rise to the top.
They also run his radiators. I'm assuming he uses special cores that have very little air flow restriction compared to most cores. I would think you'd want a little turbulence in the fins to get maximum heat transfer, which is probably why his fans won't work with most cores.
But as I told him, telling me drag and drive cars use your fans isn't that impressive. Telling me a road race, offroad racing, pro touring or some other car that's actually putting the power down for more than 8 seconds is using them, that's more impressive. The radiator I got from Ron Davis is one of his pro touring radiators, specifically designed for the 69-73 Chevy truck.
I didn't find the information until after I had this second set of fans, but he is notorious for this sort of support. He has a few posts on irate4x4 on their cooling fan tech bible where you can see him in action. It's his normal MO to blame everything but the fan and try to sell you a new radiator.
OK, I'm not sure if I should be doing this, but here is the entire e-mail thread I had with him. It's a long read. If anyone feels this is inappropriate, let me know and I'll delete it. If anyone thinks I was being an asshole, call me out on it. I feel like I was giving him a chance to explain what the issue was, but all he wanted to do was sell me a radiator. I wasted quite a bit of my time and money trying to find a solution for the problem that was created by installing his fans.
The only edits I made were to put the e-mail chain in chronological order and I removed last names, e-mail addresses, phone numbers etc. along with blank lines. Anything in italics and parentheses is not part of the convo, but me explaining what was removed or something.
From: Me
To: support deltapag.com
Subject: 16" fan issue
Good morning,
I have a 71 C20 that I was having cooling issues with. I had spoken to you before when I was trying to use your 14” fans with an aluminum radiator that I got from Brother’s Trucks a while back. I could never get that radiator to cool the engine properly, so I replaced it with a nice Ron Davis unit that had dual Spal brushed 16” fans. I had also added hood vents, and this setup allowed the truck to cool flawlessly. The fans generally shut off at speeds over 45 and would cycle at stop lights in 110° weather here in AZ.
Recently I upgraded the truck, I added a blower to the 427, and a second radiator to cool the intercooler. When I did this, I thought I should replace the old Spal fans (3836 combined CFM) with a pair of your 16” fans (6000 combined CFM). When I got the truck running again, I had cooling issues at idle. Even with the fans on 100%, the truck would just keep heating up if the temperature was over 90°. Temperatures were fine when the truck was moving, but when stopped it would climb.
I went through a variety of troubleshooting including a cooler thermostat, drilling holes in the perimeter of the thermostat (suggested by Wegner, who built the supercharger kit), running no thermostat, removing the condenser from the cooling stack, and finally removing the condenser and second radiator from the cooling stack. Nothing seemed to help. In frustration, I put the old Spal fans on and suddenly everything was just like it was before, the old fans could keep the engine cool at idle and cycled on and off like they should, even with the entire cooling stack back on and the A/C blasting.
I didn’t want to believe that it could be the fans, so that was the last thing I tried. My question for you is, why do these much lower rated fans keep my truck cooler than your fans? I paid a lot of money for what I thought was an upgrade, only to have to pull them back out.
Brent
From: support deltapag.com
Hello Brent,
The Delta PAG 16" brushless fans move 3,200 cfm about 40% more airflow than conventional 16" brushed fans. Its most likely setup and operating settings. I am not sure how you have these mounted, with a shroud, no shroud, ect. Also, please note, DeltaPAG fans variable speed fans, are you running full speed? What are the settings with our digital controller?
Some photos of your setup will help
Best Regards,
John
From: Me
Hey John,
I installed the fans on the same shroud that the old fans were installed on. It is the custom shroud that Ron Davis provided with the radiator with the 2 Spal fans.
I was controlling the speed using my Holley Dominator, however when I realized that I had to have them on full speed, I just hooked the signal wire to the 12V power for the fans so they would run at 100% speed.
I am running a high flow 187°F thermostat and I have the Holley programmed to turn the fans on at 210° and off at 205°.
Brent
(I didn't catch him asking for photos)
From: support deltapag.com
Some photos please. Sounds like you've been having an issue for a long time. Next time we can build a complete cooling system; radiator, shroud and fans. Its custom built so will be designed to unclude intercooler proper shroud ect. Please note our custom MonoCore Delta PAG Radiators cool about 30% better than most aftermarket "high-performance" radiators.
Best Regards,
John
From: Me
I just sent him a bunch of pictures of my cooling stack and how the fans are setup, clearances etc. All pictures that are in this thread already.
From: support deltapag.com
Thats alot of overhang on the ends and is that shroud only 0.5" deep? Also the fan are really up against the belt assembly, not much room for air to escape from our raised venturi shroud. I recommend having us design and build a custom Hybrid Mono-Core radiator and custom shroud. Cost for shroud and custom hybrid radiator $1,950
Best Regards,
John
From: Me
The shroud has about 1-1/4” between it and the core with about ¾” between it and the end tanks. I agree that the Wegner drive kit doesn’t leave a ton of room for the fans to breath.
My question is still this, if this is such a terrible setup, why does it work fine with a fan rated for 60% of the flow yours are rated for? Why would I spend $2000 redoing my whole setup, when I can get better fans that will work with this radiator for less than $1K?
Even when I removed the grill, condenser, left the hood open, and moved the second cooler out of the way, it would still overheat at idle.
(I added a picture here of the intercooler pulled out of the way when I was testing the fans on just the radiator)
From: support deltapag.com
Maybe the outdoor temps were different? Day time vs night time? Do the 2 16" spals cool better? Why did you replace them if they worked fine to begin with? Also what is over heat at idle? what temperatures are you seeing at idle with the fans at full speed? Where are you reading this temp?
There are alot of variables and you agree, your existing setup has alot of room for improvement. Extremely cramped, with a ton of stacking and alot of overhang at the ends. We can fix that.
Best Regards,
John
From: Me
Yes, the outdoor temps were different, it was about 90° out when I tested your fans, it was over 100° when I tested the Spal fans, both were done during the day. The 2 16” Spals are currently getting the job done, but I’m worried that once it gets to 115° here, they won’t cut it. As I mentioned before, I added a second cooler to the stack so I thought it would be a good idea to increase the air flow, unfortunately your fans did the opposite which is why we’re talking now.
I have the fans set to come on at 210°, with the DeltaPAG fans the temperature would continue to climb and not cool down if I was parked, I got caught in stop and go traffic on the freeway and saw 235°F and climbing before I could pull off and let it cool down a bit. Once I start moving, everything cools back down like normal, it’s only an issue when I’m stopped.
Brent
(He never responded to this e-mail, I started the thread up again the next day)
From: Me
Apparently, you don’t want to respond to that e-mail.
Is it unreasonable for me to expect that when I take a fan rated for 1918CFM off and replace it with one that’s rated for 3200CFM that I should get the same or better performance out of my cooling system?
Brent
From: support deltapag.com
Theres nothing else to say. Your setup is definitely not good, you agree with that. So lets fix it.
As far as your observation, I think its not taking into account alot of variables. An obvious difference between our fans and the spals is the edge of our fans have a +2" venturi, leaving only about 1" gap from your belt assembly.
Please note, 2 of our 16" fans cools +5000hp drag and drive cars. Yours should be a piece of cake... but your setup is wrong. If you feel that the spals solve that issue. Great, use that. Problem solved.
Best Regards,
John
From: Me
You sure like avoiding direct questions.
First, my setup is adequate for my 1200 HP setup, it just needs a little more air flow, which on paper your fans provide, that is not true. If your fans only work properly on your radiators, why do you sell them separately? That seems like you’re just setting yourself up for more of these conversations.
What is your return policy? I would like to return the 16” fans.
Brent
From: support deltapag.com
We answered your question directly. You’re not looking at it right. There are many variable that you’re not taking into account. Our fans move more air than the spals, fact, but the comparison is not apples to apples.
Our fans are amazing on a lot of setups, not only on our radiators, in many cases it solves a ton of “unsolvable” cooling problems. A properly designed cooling system that we can design will work best… obviously. So yes, our fans would work best on the best radiator, so would every fan. Your setup is not good, you know it’s not good. I’m not sure who told you that 3” overhangs, stacking a ton of heat exchangers and placing the fans 1” from the face of the engine will work fine. Is it the same guy who told you its adequate for 1,200 HP, street drive, with AC?
Sure, Send them over, 25% restocking fee.
Best Regards,
John
From: Me
First, I don’t agree with your statement “You know your system is not good”, my system has performed flawlessly without the supercharger for over a year. Stop projecting.
I asked a simple question that should have gotten a yes or no answer. “Is it unreasonable for me to expect that when I take a fan rated for 1918CFM off and replace it with one that’s rated for 3200CFM that I should get the same or better performance out of my cooling system? “
You’re refusing to answer it because you know the answer is no. If you’re insinuating that a Ron Davis radiator is inferior to yours, you’re mistaken. His radiators are in multiple Baja 1000 and King of the Hammers winner vehicles, something that is much more demanding than driving a drag car slowly on the road. I chose it because it was a drop in solution, going with yours would likely require an entire custom core support to be made.
I purchased your fans for the following reasons:
-Highest rated flow of any 16” fan available
-I’ve seen them being used on multiple drag and drive vehicles
If a 1918 CFM fan can cool my truck with the grill on, intecooler heat exchanger installed, and the A/C blasting in over 100°F ambient temperatures while your 3200CFM can’t keep it cool with the grill, condenser, and intercooler heat exchanger removed at 90°F ambient temperatures, you are not measuring CFM ratings the same as every other fan manufacturer out there.
Is my system perfect? No, it doesn’t need to be. It is good enough and I was trying to make a small improvement by increasing the air flow. To absolutely destroy your argument below “I’m not sure who told you that 3” overhangs” – Ron Davis designed the radiator and shroud, he told me, go argue with him, he’s been doing this way longer than you “stacking a ton of heat exchangers” I told you, I removed everything but the radiator and your fans still couldn’t keep up “1” from the face of the engine” I’m not sure where you pulled that number from, but the fan shroud was 2.5” away from the BELTS which don’t really block the air now do they, they are about 10“ from the face of the engine and about 3.5” from the front of the accessories.
As far as who told me it’s adequate for a 1200hp, street drive, with A/C, I did, because it works, it just may not work so well at 115°F and I’m trying to get ahead of that by increasing the air flow through my cooling stack. I built this engine to do drag and drive stuff, I’m using proven products that are working, but I think they could be a little better with more air flow. You seem to think this means redesigning everything just to make your fans work, I think it means “get better fans” which is what I tried to do when I purchased yours.
I will ship your fans back to you next week. Is it too late to return the 14” fans too? I’ve had them for a couple years, but they’ve just been sitting on the shelf for most of that.
Brent
From: support deltapag.com
Yes, our custom engineer, CAD and CFD optimized cooling systems are far better than the Ron Davis off-the-shelf radiator you have in there now.
Return the 16" fans, unfortunately the 14" fans you have for 3yrs is too long.
Best Regards,
John
From: Me
I do not have an “off the shelf” Ron Davis radiator, I have his custom-built pro touring radiator. How many radiators do you have in pro-touring, road racing, or off-road racing vehicles? Those are tests of a cooling system, not a 5000hp drag car driving down the highway.
Your CFM ratings are misleading, and you know it. That is why I’m returning the fans.
Do I need an RMA, or should I just put a copy of this e-mail thread in the box?
Brent
From: support deltapag.com
Our airflow has been tested by third party AMCA labs. It's fact.
Look, its fine, you prefer Ron Davis brand. But did you ask why a 1200hp pro touring radiator can keep 700hp cool? Even at 115f should have been easy. And no its not as simple as more airflow.
Clearly you're not familiar with our company. We have a little over 20,000 complete cooling systems in the race industry, and a little over 250k fans sold, we've been doing this for over 15yrs using the latest CFD/CAD tools and patented brushless tech. Yes, many pro touring, many offroad, rock crawling and races you probably never heard of like king of the hammers. We just don't advertise. Most people dont know anything unless its in Summit or Jegs.
Anyway, I checked our previous emails. You did the same thing 3yrs ago with the 14s. Even then I told you to send the 14s back. We emailed back a forth a bunch, you later found out I was right and your radiator/stat was at fault instead of calling us to build something right, you went and purchased another inferior system, albeit a bit better.
When you give up using lesser products/tech call us and we'll build it right.
Best Regards,
John
From: Me
You’re correct, we talked before and you pointed out that I obviously had an issue because it wouldn’t stay cool when I was driving (this was with a bone stock 6.0). The first step I took was to add the hood vents, when that didn’t work it was obvious I needed a new radiator and shroud. At no point do I plan on making this truck a dedicated race truck, so I went with a factory fit option from a well-known brand that has been in the business for over 50 years and has been all over the race industry. I didn’t send the fans back, because I had planned on using them in a future build and because you helped me out.
You don’t make factory fit radiators from what I can tell, so no I didn’t get one from you. I had seen some of your custom radiators, but I saw you as a fan manufacturer, not a radiator manufacturer. The radiator I have fixed all of my issues and it is continuing to perform, he offers an upgraded brushless option, but at the time I was appreciative of the assistance you had given me so I planned on going with your fans if I needed to upgrade, it was my plan all along. I finally pulled the trigger on your fans only to be told that I would have to redesign my entire cooling stack for them to function properly.
Look, I’ve asked you the same question several different times and in several different ways and you continue to deflect and talk about inefficiencies with my cooling stack. There’s a reason you won’t answer the question, and it speaks volumes about your product and your support. I didn’t start this conversation off aggressively; I just explained my experience and asked a question which you won’t answer.
Why does your 3200CFM fan not work as good as a 1918CFM fan in my system and is that something I should have expected? Telling me that my cooling stack sucks when it works fine with a lower rated cheaper fan is just plain ridiculous. I’m not sure why you think you’re going to convince me of that. Your fans just don’t move as much air through a system unless it’s specifically optimised for your fans. The cheap SPAL fan can do it, why can’t yours? Why blame my cooling stack when it’s obviously the fan.
Your fans worked at 80°, I didn’t notice the issue until the temperature started climbing. In fact, when it was below 80, I didn’t even run them at full speed. I don’t know that the current setup won’t keep it cool at 115°, I’m just paranoid and I know there is an option that will give me more air flow available. I thought that’s what I was buying from you, but I was mistaken.
Brent
He did not respond to this last e-mail.
The only edits I made were to put the e-mail chain in chronological order and I removed last names, e-mail addresses, phone numbers etc. along with blank lines. Anything in italics and parentheses is not part of the convo, but me explaining what was removed or something.
From: Me
To: support deltapag.com
Subject: 16" fan issue
Good morning,
I have a 71 C20 that I was having cooling issues with. I had spoken to you before when I was trying to use your 14” fans with an aluminum radiator that I got from Brother’s Trucks a while back. I could never get that radiator to cool the engine properly, so I replaced it with a nice Ron Davis unit that had dual Spal brushed 16” fans. I had also added hood vents, and this setup allowed the truck to cool flawlessly. The fans generally shut off at speeds over 45 and would cycle at stop lights in 110° weather here in AZ.
Recently I upgraded the truck, I added a blower to the 427, and a second radiator to cool the intercooler. When I did this, I thought I should replace the old Spal fans (3836 combined CFM) with a pair of your 16” fans (6000 combined CFM). When I got the truck running again, I had cooling issues at idle. Even with the fans on 100%, the truck would just keep heating up if the temperature was over 90°. Temperatures were fine when the truck was moving, but when stopped it would climb.
I went through a variety of troubleshooting including a cooler thermostat, drilling holes in the perimeter of the thermostat (suggested by Wegner, who built the supercharger kit), running no thermostat, removing the condenser from the cooling stack, and finally removing the condenser and second radiator from the cooling stack. Nothing seemed to help. In frustration, I put the old Spal fans on and suddenly everything was just like it was before, the old fans could keep the engine cool at idle and cycled on and off like they should, even with the entire cooling stack back on and the A/C blasting.
I didn’t want to believe that it could be the fans, so that was the last thing I tried. My question for you is, why do these much lower rated fans keep my truck cooler than your fans? I paid a lot of money for what I thought was an upgrade, only to have to pull them back out.
Brent
From: support deltapag.com
Hello Brent,
The Delta PAG 16" brushless fans move 3,200 cfm about 40% more airflow than conventional 16" brushed fans. Its most likely setup and operating settings. I am not sure how you have these mounted, with a shroud, no shroud, ect. Also, please note, DeltaPAG fans variable speed fans, are you running full speed? What are the settings with our digital controller?
Some photos of your setup will help
Best Regards,
John
From: Me
Hey John,
I installed the fans on the same shroud that the old fans were installed on. It is the custom shroud that Ron Davis provided with the radiator with the 2 Spal fans.
I was controlling the speed using my Holley Dominator, however when I realized that I had to have them on full speed, I just hooked the signal wire to the 12V power for the fans so they would run at 100% speed.
I am running a high flow 187°F thermostat and I have the Holley programmed to turn the fans on at 210° and off at 205°.
Brent
(I didn't catch him asking for photos)
From: support deltapag.com
Some photos please. Sounds like you've been having an issue for a long time. Next time we can build a complete cooling system; radiator, shroud and fans. Its custom built so will be designed to unclude intercooler proper shroud ect. Please note our custom MonoCore Delta PAG Radiators cool about 30% better than most aftermarket "high-performance" radiators.
Best Regards,
John
From: Me
I just sent him a bunch of pictures of my cooling stack and how the fans are setup, clearances etc. All pictures that are in this thread already.
From: support deltapag.com
Thats alot of overhang on the ends and is that shroud only 0.5" deep? Also the fan are really up against the belt assembly, not much room for air to escape from our raised venturi shroud. I recommend having us design and build a custom Hybrid Mono-Core radiator and custom shroud. Cost for shroud and custom hybrid radiator $1,950
Best Regards,
John
From: Me
The shroud has about 1-1/4” between it and the core with about ¾” between it and the end tanks. I agree that the Wegner drive kit doesn’t leave a ton of room for the fans to breath.
My question is still this, if this is such a terrible setup, why does it work fine with a fan rated for 60% of the flow yours are rated for? Why would I spend $2000 redoing my whole setup, when I can get better fans that will work with this radiator for less than $1K?
Even when I removed the grill, condenser, left the hood open, and moved the second cooler out of the way, it would still overheat at idle.
(I added a picture here of the intercooler pulled out of the way when I was testing the fans on just the radiator)
From: support deltapag.com
Maybe the outdoor temps were different? Day time vs night time? Do the 2 16" spals cool better? Why did you replace them if they worked fine to begin with? Also what is over heat at idle? what temperatures are you seeing at idle with the fans at full speed? Where are you reading this temp?
There are alot of variables and you agree, your existing setup has alot of room for improvement. Extremely cramped, with a ton of stacking and alot of overhang at the ends. We can fix that.
Best Regards,
John
From: Me
Yes, the outdoor temps were different, it was about 90° out when I tested your fans, it was over 100° when I tested the Spal fans, both were done during the day. The 2 16” Spals are currently getting the job done, but I’m worried that once it gets to 115° here, they won’t cut it. As I mentioned before, I added a second cooler to the stack so I thought it would be a good idea to increase the air flow, unfortunately your fans did the opposite which is why we’re talking now.
I have the fans set to come on at 210°, with the DeltaPAG fans the temperature would continue to climb and not cool down if I was parked, I got caught in stop and go traffic on the freeway and saw 235°F and climbing before I could pull off and let it cool down a bit. Once I start moving, everything cools back down like normal, it’s only an issue when I’m stopped.
Brent
(He never responded to this e-mail, I started the thread up again the next day)
From: Me
Apparently, you don’t want to respond to that e-mail.
Is it unreasonable for me to expect that when I take a fan rated for 1918CFM off and replace it with one that’s rated for 3200CFM that I should get the same or better performance out of my cooling system?
Brent
From: support deltapag.com
Theres nothing else to say. Your setup is definitely not good, you agree with that. So lets fix it.
As far as your observation, I think its not taking into account alot of variables. An obvious difference between our fans and the spals is the edge of our fans have a +2" venturi, leaving only about 1" gap from your belt assembly.
Please note, 2 of our 16" fans cools +5000hp drag and drive cars. Yours should be a piece of cake... but your setup is wrong. If you feel that the spals solve that issue. Great, use that. Problem solved.
Best Regards,
John
From: Me
You sure like avoiding direct questions.
First, my setup is adequate for my 1200 HP setup, it just needs a little more air flow, which on paper your fans provide, that is not true. If your fans only work properly on your radiators, why do you sell them separately? That seems like you’re just setting yourself up for more of these conversations.
What is your return policy? I would like to return the 16” fans.
Brent
From: support deltapag.com
We answered your question directly. You’re not looking at it right. There are many variable that you’re not taking into account. Our fans move more air than the spals, fact, but the comparison is not apples to apples.
Our fans are amazing on a lot of setups, not only on our radiators, in many cases it solves a ton of “unsolvable” cooling problems. A properly designed cooling system that we can design will work best… obviously. So yes, our fans would work best on the best radiator, so would every fan. Your setup is not good, you know it’s not good. I’m not sure who told you that 3” overhangs, stacking a ton of heat exchangers and placing the fans 1” from the face of the engine will work fine. Is it the same guy who told you its adequate for 1,200 HP, street drive, with AC?
Sure, Send them over, 25% restocking fee.
Best Regards,
John
From: Me
First, I don’t agree with your statement “You know your system is not good”, my system has performed flawlessly without the supercharger for over a year. Stop projecting.
I asked a simple question that should have gotten a yes or no answer. “Is it unreasonable for me to expect that when I take a fan rated for 1918CFM off and replace it with one that’s rated for 3200CFM that I should get the same or better performance out of my cooling system? “
You’re refusing to answer it because you know the answer is no. If you’re insinuating that a Ron Davis radiator is inferior to yours, you’re mistaken. His radiators are in multiple Baja 1000 and King of the Hammers winner vehicles, something that is much more demanding than driving a drag car slowly on the road. I chose it because it was a drop in solution, going with yours would likely require an entire custom core support to be made.
I purchased your fans for the following reasons:
-Highest rated flow of any 16” fan available
-I’ve seen them being used on multiple drag and drive vehicles
If a 1918 CFM fan can cool my truck with the grill on, intecooler heat exchanger installed, and the A/C blasting in over 100°F ambient temperatures while your 3200CFM can’t keep it cool with the grill, condenser, and intercooler heat exchanger removed at 90°F ambient temperatures, you are not measuring CFM ratings the same as every other fan manufacturer out there.
Is my system perfect? No, it doesn’t need to be. It is good enough and I was trying to make a small improvement by increasing the air flow. To absolutely destroy your argument below “I’m not sure who told you that 3” overhangs” – Ron Davis designed the radiator and shroud, he told me, go argue with him, he’s been doing this way longer than you “stacking a ton of heat exchangers” I told you, I removed everything but the radiator and your fans still couldn’t keep up “1” from the face of the engine” I’m not sure where you pulled that number from, but the fan shroud was 2.5” away from the BELTS which don’t really block the air now do they, they are about 10“ from the face of the engine and about 3.5” from the front of the accessories.
As far as who told me it’s adequate for a 1200hp, street drive, with A/C, I did, because it works, it just may not work so well at 115°F and I’m trying to get ahead of that by increasing the air flow through my cooling stack. I built this engine to do drag and drive stuff, I’m using proven products that are working, but I think they could be a little better with more air flow. You seem to think this means redesigning everything just to make your fans work, I think it means “get better fans” which is what I tried to do when I purchased yours.
I will ship your fans back to you next week. Is it too late to return the 14” fans too? I’ve had them for a couple years, but they’ve just been sitting on the shelf for most of that.
Brent
From: support deltapag.com
Yes, our custom engineer, CAD and CFD optimized cooling systems are far better than the Ron Davis off-the-shelf radiator you have in there now.
Return the 16" fans, unfortunately the 14" fans you have for 3yrs is too long.
Best Regards,
John
From: Me
I do not have an “off the shelf” Ron Davis radiator, I have his custom-built pro touring radiator. How many radiators do you have in pro-touring, road racing, or off-road racing vehicles? Those are tests of a cooling system, not a 5000hp drag car driving down the highway.
Your CFM ratings are misleading, and you know it. That is why I’m returning the fans.
Do I need an RMA, or should I just put a copy of this e-mail thread in the box?
Brent
From: support deltapag.com
Our airflow has been tested by third party AMCA labs. It's fact.
Look, its fine, you prefer Ron Davis brand. But did you ask why a 1200hp pro touring radiator can keep 700hp cool? Even at 115f should have been easy. And no its not as simple as more airflow.
Clearly you're not familiar with our company. We have a little over 20,000 complete cooling systems in the race industry, and a little over 250k fans sold, we've been doing this for over 15yrs using the latest CFD/CAD tools and patented brushless tech. Yes, many pro touring, many offroad, rock crawling and races you probably never heard of like king of the hammers. We just don't advertise. Most people dont know anything unless its in Summit or Jegs.
Anyway, I checked our previous emails. You did the same thing 3yrs ago with the 14s. Even then I told you to send the 14s back. We emailed back a forth a bunch, you later found out I was right and your radiator/stat was at fault instead of calling us to build something right, you went and purchased another inferior system, albeit a bit better.
When you give up using lesser products/tech call us and we'll build it right.
Best Regards,
John
From: Me
You’re correct, we talked before and you pointed out that I obviously had an issue because it wouldn’t stay cool when I was driving (this was with a bone stock 6.0). The first step I took was to add the hood vents, when that didn’t work it was obvious I needed a new radiator and shroud. At no point do I plan on making this truck a dedicated race truck, so I went with a factory fit option from a well-known brand that has been in the business for over 50 years and has been all over the race industry. I didn’t send the fans back, because I had planned on using them in a future build and because you helped me out.
You don’t make factory fit radiators from what I can tell, so no I didn’t get one from you. I had seen some of your custom radiators, but I saw you as a fan manufacturer, not a radiator manufacturer. The radiator I have fixed all of my issues and it is continuing to perform, he offers an upgraded brushless option, but at the time I was appreciative of the assistance you had given me so I planned on going with your fans if I needed to upgrade, it was my plan all along. I finally pulled the trigger on your fans only to be told that I would have to redesign my entire cooling stack for them to function properly.
Look, I’ve asked you the same question several different times and in several different ways and you continue to deflect and talk about inefficiencies with my cooling stack. There’s a reason you won’t answer the question, and it speaks volumes about your product and your support. I didn’t start this conversation off aggressively; I just explained my experience and asked a question which you won’t answer.
Why does your 3200CFM fan not work as good as a 1918CFM fan in my system and is that something I should have expected? Telling me that my cooling stack sucks when it works fine with a lower rated cheaper fan is just plain ridiculous. I’m not sure why you think you’re going to convince me of that. Your fans just don’t move as much air through a system unless it’s specifically optimised for your fans. The cheap SPAL fan can do it, why can’t yours? Why blame my cooling stack when it’s obviously the fan.
Your fans worked at 80°, I didn’t notice the issue until the temperature started climbing. In fact, when it was below 80, I didn’t even run them at full speed. I don’t know that the current setup won’t keep it cool at 115°, I’m just paranoid and I know there is an option that will give me more air flow available. I thought that’s what I was buying from you, but I was mistaken.
Brent
He did not respond to this last e-mail.
I don’t think you were out of line, he won’t answer your question.
