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"Tired" starter?

Here are some pics of what I have going on. I think I understand the comment about diagonal mounting now. (Sorry if the first image looks upside down, can't seem to fix it). It looks to me like the block has a tapped spot for straight across mounting too, hard to see in pic. Is that a thing? I stupidly ordered a starter before looking closely at this.

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I did more surfing around and some blocks do have the holes to mount both straight and staggered starters. I'm going to assume the straight one I ordered will work until measurements tell me otherwise... Now I know I must have a 168 tooth flywheel.
 
If you got the starter with 4 holes in a line, you're good . I vote the same way, install with no shim, try it and listen.
 
I was in this pattern of swapping out remanufactured starters about once a year because hot starts were problematic. Even found myself hitting the starter with a tire iron as gas stations a couple times. Then I added a Ford solenoid JUST to power my starter solenoid. I've been on the same re-man starter ever since - probably over 10 years. That factory pink wire and 20 year old ignition switch aren't up to the task of pulling in a solenoid.
 
I was thinking about this thread last night...a few minutes probing with a volt meter at each junction would go a long way toward diagnosing what is actually happening. If you have a crummy connection, a dirty solenoid contact, or a failing motor, a volt meter should give you a direction to follow rather than just chucking parts at it until the problem stops.
 
campfire said:
I was thinking about this thread last night...a few minutes probing with a volt meter at each junction would go a long way toward diagnosing what is actually happening. If you have a crummy connection, a dirty solenoid contact, or a failing motor, a volt meter should give you a direction to follow rather than just chucking parts at it until the problem stops.
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I got distracted by a shiny object, you're trying to apply logic. :grin: The wiring is fresh though, so I really think that part is good. I'm not interested in rehabing this old thyme starter when there's better stuff out now. I never really knew about gear reduction starters until I started looking into this.
 
On my '82 GMC 6.2,I actually spliced in another wire to the purple solenoid activation wire,that will reach the positive battery terminal,so I can touch the wire to the battery and get it cranking over,when I use starting fluid as a last ditch resort to get it started--you want it cranking over full tilt ,THEN spray the ether,otherwise it'll kick back and bind up if you just shoot a good dose of it in the air cleaner,and increase chances of damage..

At first I spliced that wire in because the starters,both the direct drive one (that was a recent delco rebuilt) and the used gear reduction one I got,were refusing to crank when I turned the key,sometimes it took several attempts to get them to crank,all I got was a "click",so I assumed the solenoid disc inside where the contacts are were either corroded or arced and had high resistance..

I even by-passed the neutral safety and replaced the wire terminal at the starter solenoid purple wire ,that looked iffy,and it still refused to crank over on every attempt--I had to get out,leave the key on,and touch the wire I added to the battery,then it cranked over OK..

After awhile I guess the starter solenoid eventually "fixed" itself,its been starting with the key every time since..this was extremely frustrating,I had both starters in and out more than once thinking they were not good,and my left arm ached for a week after bench pressing that direct drive ingot into place 2 times..also got a finger smashed when it came down suddenly too..:mad:..

The way GM wired the solenoid,going through many feet of wire to the ignition switch,then to the neutral safety,and on to the solenoid,its no wonder the voltage drops enough to make cranking "iffy",especially after many years when the wires start aging and develop higher resistance...more than one of my GM trucks had a push button to crank the starter--I also got 10% off my insurance by calling that an "anti-theft device"..!
 
Blue85 said:
I was in this pattern of swapping out remanufactured starters about once a year because hot starts were problematic. Even found myself hitting the starter with a tire iron as gas stations a couple times. Then I added a Ford solenoid JUST to power my starter solenoid. I've been on the same re-man starter ever since - probably over 10 years. That factory pink wire and 20 year old ignition switch aren't up to the task of pulling in a solenoid.
Click to expand...

So, a relay to run a relay? Any idea how much current the starter solenoid pulls? I guess the solenoid does the relay duty plus extends the drive gear, right?
 
The idea behind the Ford solenoid is to move the solenoid to a cool, accessible place so it doesn't get cooked. Then the solenoid on the starter gets a jumper between the terminals so it's bypassed.

Imo you don't need the remote solenoid or even the mini starter, both are great upgrades but neither seem to be necessary in your case. You stated you are certain there are no wiring issues and your existing starter is approx 15 years old, just put a good quality starter on it and drive it.
 
nvrenuf said:
The idea behind the Ford solenoid is to move the solenoid to a cool, accessible place so it doesn't get cooked. Then the solenoid on the starter gets a jumper between the terminals so it's bypassed.
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Sounded to me like Blue85 was actually driving the starter solenoid with the Ford solenoid. Besides, you still need a solenoid at the starter, right? A solenoid is a mechanical actuator, so I assume it's the thing push out the drive gear. I assume when people say "starter solenoid" it implies that plus a relay function that powers the starter motor.

Imo you don't need the remote solenoid or even the mini starter, both are great upgrades but neither seem to be necessary in your case. You stated you are certain there are no wiring issues and your existing starter is approx 15 years old, just put a good quality starter on it and drive it.
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Yeah, mostly just curious about the extra solenoid/relay thing. I see no reason not to upgrade to a mini/gear reduction while I'm swapping though.
 
You don't want to bypass the starter-mounted solenoid. You want the bendix kicked out before applying current to the motor. So the traditional Ford solenoid mod jumps the Battery and S terminals together. The starter current still has to go through the local solenoid, but it's kicked in so much harder that it makes much better contact. On mine I have the local solenoid still connected directly to the battery, so that current only goes through one contact instead of two.
 
Blue85 said:
You don't want to bypass the starter-mounted solenoid. You want the bendix kicked out before applying current to the motor. So the traditional Ford solenoid mod jumps the Battery and S terminals together. The starter current still has to go through the local solenoid, but it's kicked in so much harder that it makes much better contact. On mine I have the local solenoid still connected directly to the battery, so that current only goes through one contact instead of two.
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Thank you for the better explanation, "bypass" was a poor choice on my part.
 
I may be wrong about this, but isn't the cross bolt starter the first years of the gear reduction starter GM finally started equipping there engines with? Then later there was another gear reduction model that was smaller, and also a cross bolt pattern?
 
I'll be tackling this over the weekend. Any tips for getting the original starter off without smashing my face?
 
Mastiff said:
I'll be tackling this over the weekend. Any tips for getting the original starter off without smashing my face?
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I like to put a floor jack just under it, to slowly lower it while getting the wires disconnected, if that may be an issue.

It's not that they are THAT heavy, just normally awkward to be turning a wrench, holding it in place, then trying to disconnect wiring with it in the one hand. Sometimes you can reach the wiring with the starter in place, if you can, great.
 
If you haven't bought one yet and are not going the mini route. I had saved for future reference Denso 281-8002 starter is a good one to get.
 
I went with the Powermaster. I thought about going for overkill, but just went with the 9100 in the end, which I take to be the most basic stock replacement mini starter. It took me about 1.5 hours to swap it in. Most of the pain was related to the wiring, since you can't really access it when installed, and the wires aren't long enough to rest the starter in a convenient place with them connected. I ended up sort of balancing the starter on end on top of the diff while dealing with the wires.

It sounds like it's working alright with no shims or anything, though the sound it makes is really weird compared to the standard starter. It'll take some time for me to get used to it.

The starter only came with one shim, for putting between the starter and the block. No depth shims. So if anything was actually needed, I may have been in trouble anyway. They also provided weird mounting bolts, which were Allen heads with no knurling like I was expecting. Hopefully they know what they are doing not having the knurling and aren't just trying to save themselves 10 cents. I also don't have what I need to adapt my torque wrench to an Allen head. 32 ft-lbs is a lot with only a 5" lever.

Next is to test how it holds up to a hot engine.
 
Any Lock washers? I'd check those bolts once a week or so for 2-3 weeks and make sure they don't loosen.
 
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