towing loads (gas mileage on 8.1l and also Cummins talk)

[bigk]

Re: towing loads

Pete, I tried finding the info about the medium duty trucks. I believe it was on the 6.2-6.5 Diesel Page. It's been over a year since I saw it. I know it said that the motor has been run and tested for 2 or 3 years or so. They showed pics of the bigger trucks, and told of how the new engines and trannies were designed for them and how this would give GM an overbuilt pickup to compete with everybody else. I won't deny that the GM diesels have lagged behind in serious pulling power, but for Ken to say they were all junk, and won't last just got me going. I also know of a customer that tows his boat with an 8.1 Surburban, and he gets around 12 or 13 mpg when towing, and 17 just running around. Also, to clarify one other thing, I don't like Fords, but I do like Dodges, although they do have alot of tranny trouble, even with the manuals. Not a rumor, I've known several people with 5 speeds that had to have them rebuilt. But I do love Cummins engines, I had a couple in road tractors I owned before I got off the road. Good, simple, and reliable, also very capable of serious power when tuned by someone that knows what they're doing.

Karl
Temporarily Unemployed Underwear Model
87 3/4 ton

 

[azblazor]

Re: towing loads

Gonzo2,
You know I was thinking it has to do with a powerband sweet spot. The combination of lockup, overdrive, tire size, differential gearing, putting the 454 in a pretty efficient powerband (2300-2500). I guess I can see why it must seem like I'm pushing the numbers. I've had other vehicles that I thought would be more efficient, smaller engines, higher gears, etc. But they weren't better, they were worse. I am so pleased with this combination in both my trucks, I don't think I could get rid of either one. Even for a new Duramax or Powerstroke, especially when I consider the monthly payments.

Oh, Gonzo, when you get time, you might want to fill out your profile so we can see where you're from and what you're about a little bit.
Mark

<font color=blue>azblazor</font color=blue>
<font color=orange> 79 K5 454-FI / 4L80E, NP205, D60, FF14, 4" lift, 9K Warn </font color=orange>

 

[pcorssmit]

Re: towing loads

I remember something about a 7.? liter motor that was also called a Duramax, that was going in to the med. duty trucks. I don't remember if it was an I6 or a V8, but I don't think it shared too much with the 6.6. I test drove one and was not terribly impessed with the motor. I wanted to drive a 6 spd for a more fair comparison to my truck, but they didn't have any and the one I drove had the Allison, which I liked. Best auto trans hooked to a diesel I've driven. I won't deny that Dodge autos suck (short of dropping a couple grand for a hp aftermarket one). The 5 spds (NV4500, like used in the Chevys until now) also has problem in the Dodge, mainly the 5th gear nut. Proper driving (ie no 5th below 1500 rpm) helps avoid problems, and there are aftermarket fixes, but yes its always in the back of my mind.

As for the Fords, I do like the Super Dutys, the main reason I bought the Dodge instead was the motor. I do wish I had a 4 door, though, and I think they are built as well or better than the Dodges.

Pete


'83 K5, 350 TBI (ex 6.2), 700R4, NP208, Dana 60/14 bolt, 4.56s, Detroits, 3" lift, 15-39.5x15 TSLs
'97 Dodge 2500 4x4 CC LB Sport, Cummins 5 spd

 

[Corey-88K5]

Re: towing loads

Oh ya, let me jump on this one!

First of all, I'm writing this as a CTD Owner. I've got a 1994 2500 4x4 Std Cab. Everything I've got to say is 1st hand, not a "I've got a friend, who's neighbor over heard at a truck stop..." story. First of all. Take into consideration that the PSD &amp; Duramaxipad are both bigblocks, and the Cummins is a Small block inline 6. Even though when I bought my truck it had over 112000 miles on it she still had quite a bit of power in 'er. But I've opted to install a TST Fuel Plate and now the truck is producing over 600ft lbs of torque and added 50 (I think) HP to the stock numbers. Now this isn't with out problems. The upgrades I've performed (less then $300 &amp; 1hr) will nearly destroy the auto trans, and I only went 1/4 of the way as far as upgrades go. Yes, the Duramaxi &amp; PSD both will outperform the cummins off the showroom floor, but both forementioned trucks are about at the limits of their design, as prior mentioned, the cummins is shoehorned into this little truck. The Cummins will hands down destroy any other diesel that ford or GM has put into a Pickup.

Some people will think that the durimaxi will out run a cummins, if they tell you that and said that they have seen it, they are full of it. The duramaxi will shut down at 97mph, the cummins doesn't have this problem. I don't know about the PSD's.

Another point to put out. The Dodge has a HUGE fan following. Not because of the truck, but the engine. If you see anybody in the world who needs a real truck to tow a huge load, they have 2 of the 3, and sorry to say, GM isn't in the running. If you think that the Duramaxi will change that. You most likely are wrong. The only people that will really be interested in the Duramaxi will be people who really want a GM. Its either Dodge or Ford when it comes to HD chassis applications, and Dodge has the Cummins with has the best engine for the application. Ya right you think. Well check out these links:
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&amp;postid=190788#post190788>Rod's</a>
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=5a474a82b58e2bf8e6f5b6fef222da81&amp;threadid=26838>Yep, Duramaxi &amp; PSD's Suck!</a>
If you look at the first one, it displays the Rod's between some of the engines.

The 2nd link discusses the location of the sticker that the manufactures labled the engine as. You will find that Cummins is the "Biggest" engine, although the size is the smallest.
Also, there are atleast 2, yes "2" of these trucks with over a million miles. This is real road use, not sitting ona bench being fed highgrade oil and fuel. This is real deal day by day applications. I've never, repeat NEVER heard of a GM or Ford accomplishing this.
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=5a474a82b58e2bf8e6f5b6fef222da81&amp;threadid=27642>Million Mile Dodge's</a>

I'm going to close with this. I'm currently looking for a 20'-28' Gooseneck trailer to haul my 88K5. I know that my 94 can handle it, but do plan on replacing it as soon as its paid off. Why am I going to replace it with another truck? Next, I want a 2001 Ext. Cab 2500/3500 Ram w/the manual! I sure as hell ain't gettin a Chevy or GMC. Plus, that IFS stuff SUCKS!

If you have any more questions, check out <a target="_blank" href=http://www.turbodieselregister.com>www.turbodieselregister.com</a> If I opt not to get the Dodge, Ford is the only other REAL option!

Later, and Happy RAMMIN

Corey
88K5 &amp; 94 CTD

 

[pcorssmit]

Re: towing loads

Me like 'um TST plate. #10 plate + 215 motor = big stoopid grin + purple clutch.

Pete

'83 K5, 350 TBI (ex 6.2), 700R4, NP208, Dana 60/14 bolt, 4.56s, Detroits, 3" lift, 15-39.5x15 TSLs
'97 Dodge 2500 4x4 CC LB Sport, Cummins 5 spd

 

[bigk]

Re: towing loads

Some friends of mine have a gooseneck that they used for a 2 car hauler for their dealership. They want $2900, I believe. It has a brand new floor, nice looking trailer. They're at J&amp;M Auto Sales, outside of Quincy IL, at 573-393-2000.

Karl
Temporarily Unemployed Underwear Model
87 3/4 ton

 

[GONZO2]

Re: towing loads

azblazor
i wasn't calling you a liar. i just have never heard of a 454 (have not heard much on the new 8.1L yet) getting that good on the highway. i was looking at buying an ext cab 3/4 ton shortbox a while back and one of the reasons i did not was because everyone i talked to with one said the fuel economy was terrible (like 9-12). that was the major reason my brother in law got rid of his duelly no matter what he did (around town, hwy, or towing it never got over 11mpg.

 

[chevyboy24598]

Re: towing loads

I haven't seen a 6.2 or 6.5 make it over 300,000, but I have seen a 94 Chevy 1500 with a 350 that made it over a million miles. I think Chevys gas motors have more than made up for thier diesels.

Rust=Good
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.bodatious.com> bodatious </a>
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.mudboggingfun.homestead.com> my site </a>

 

[Leadfoot]

Re: towing loads

Yes, but people miss the point. You can have the kick-assest (if that is even a word) engine in the world, but if the rest of the vehicle is not built to handle it, its no good (Dodge Ram for example). Don't get me wrong, I like the Cummins (one of the best, if not the best, engines in the light duty trucks) and I love the body style (except the '02 1500 series changes), but as far as transmissions (auto AND manual), and the front end components, Dodge is lacking. For a mall runner posuer (sp?) a Dodge is great, but for a plowing, towing, working hard on a daily basis it's GM or Ford. We have some contractors here who used Dodges to tow small trailers or put a dump body on, but all the contractors who bought the new Dodge and then used them for heavy plowing or towing, ended up trading them in for the Superduty. Now many of them are getting either the Superduty or the new GM. When it comes to hard work, you need the WHOLE package. GM was lacking with the old diesels (great long lasting engines, but lacked the power of Cummins and the Powerstroke), but have now built a total package (I know some of you will say, well how can it be a total package with IFS, but you got to see these units!). Dodge won over a bunch of fans with the Cummins and the great looks (both of which I like), but they have not been accepted with contractors around here (Northeast where we get lots of snow) and need strong drivetrains and front ends. Like I have said, there are some contractors with Dodges (usually the estimates truck), but all the ones with dump beds and plow frames in the winter have been the Superduties and now I am seeing the new GM's (This spring will guage the strength of the new GM's by how many are for sale by contractors). Every Spring since Dodge came out with the new designs the local wheeler dealer mag has had a load of contractor owned Dodges for sale (and they were only a 6-8 months old and low mileage).

Biggest complaints I have personally heard are tranny problems (still), and for those that plow, the frontend doesn't hold out (even though it is solid axle design). They just don't build them like they used to.

Just some facts to brighten everyone's day

.
Rememer: To each his own!

See my rig at <a target="_blank" href=http://coloradok5.com/gallery/Leadfoot>http://coloradok5.com/gallery/Leadfoot</a>

 

[Butch]

Re: towing loads

Well I have a 98 2500 extended cab short bed pick up with a 454 in it with the 4L80E. Running the interstate empty at 85 mph going to Phoenix from Denver I got 14.5 mpg. When towing my Blazer and trailer of 8000lbs I get 12.5 mpg on flat areas and 9.5 when I go over the passes going to Moab. This is the best I have ever gotten and this is my 4th big block. The others were duallies and only one other had overdrive. The ones without over drive get about 10.5 in my experience. I would like a new dodge also, but I just cant come to terms with starting over with payments.

I thought I was wrong once,
but I was mistaken

 

[83ZZ502_Jimmy]

Re: towing loads

Corey,
In your first link they are talking about 6.2 diesel rods, not 6.6 rods. I am sure they are different. Also the Durmax has been detuned in the light duty trucks. I have heard that in 1-2 years they will up the power on them. This was an offical meeting for the VA dept of transportation by GM.

Now I like the 5.9 cummins. No doubt it is a great motor, but how many of us are going to put 1 million miles on one. Its nice to think, but really...

Why not give the new Duramax a chance.... Making a statement saying they are bad in general without real evidence is wrong. I keep up with the new trucks and have not seen any problems with the new motor. Some already have 100,000 on them, going strong.

The reason the new motors are speed limited is because of the new computer control. My 8.1/Allsion did the same thing until I changed it. Those trucks will run 130-140. My 8.1 can do 125+ w/out a problem. I think GM was worried about lawsuits saying their trucks were too fast, causing little Johnny to crash in his daddy's big truck. Just think it won't happen... And the duramax is faster 0-60 and in the 1/4 mile. Just check out any magazine with a comparo.

Not wanting to start a war, just throwing in my .02,

John

<font color=blue>"When all else fails, read the instructions, or get a bigger hammer"</font color=blue>

 

[BlueBlazer]

Re: towing loads

Yeah, how do you figure the manual tranny sucks on the dodge. Its stronger than any of the other big three's.

82 K5, 6.2L Diesel, sm465, np205, 14 bolt welded, 8 lug 10 bolt lock right, 410 gears, 35" Mud Kings
SPEAK SOFTLY AND DRIVE A BIG TRUCK

 

[82GMC]

Re: towing loads

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

I have heard that in 1-2 years they will up the power on them. This was an offical meeting for the VA dept of transportation by GM.

<hr></blockquote>

I will step back in here for a moment. Yes they will be bumping the juice in 2-3years. I got this right from the folks at the PLANT!! I took a tour of the D-Max plant in september, When I went back there for TheDieselPages yearly get together. After seeing that plant and all their safeguards, Their checks and doubles checks, To make sure EVERY engine that comes out of there, Is a well built as it can be, I whould have NO doughts about going out and getting one, And pushing it to the limets day in day out!! The only real problem as I can see it with the new HD's, Is that if you have the allison tranny, You can't bump the power up at all, Reason being is that the tranny has sensors that detect how much power is coming through it, And if it feels more than the 545ft/lbs or torque, It shuts that engine off!!

Now then I am not by any means trying to take anything away from the cummins or the powerstroke, There're both great engines. But folks need to give the D-Max more of a chance instead of just saying flat out It Sucks.
Thank you for your time.

I am the hunter Who live's in the darkness, And grows through your fears...... And you are the hunted.

 

[Leadfoot]

Re: towing loads

Sorry, I may have put a blanket statement out there, but in our stock truck pulling class I have seen 2 blow behind Dodge motors (one gas one diesel) and no Chevy or Ford manuals as of yet (Diesel or Gas). This may have been a quirk, so I am Sorry for saying they ALL suck. My bad

.

See my rig at <a target="_blank" href=http://coloradok5.com/gallery/Leadfoot>http://coloradok5.com/gallery/Leadfoot</a>

 

[BlueBlazer]

Re: towing loads

No problem, I didnt know if you knew that they use the NV4500 and 5600 which are much stronger than the ZF trannies that Ford and Chevy use now. I could see them not holding up in truck pulling with Cummins that are pushing 1000 ft lbs+ torque, but they are still the best tranny out there. Honest mistake, no harm done.


82 K5, 6.2L Diesel, sm465, np205, 14 bolt welded, 8 lug 10 bolt lock right, 410 gears, 35" Mud Kings
SPEAK SOFTLY AND DRIVE A BIG TRUCK

 

[Leadfoot]

Re: towing loads

I also realize too, that it could be the way the driver uses/abuses them too (especially since one blew up behind a gas job, could be grinding while shifting, Repeatedly).
The weird thing is, we have seen a clutch or two blow over the years (which is why scattershields are madatory), but very few manual trannies themselves blow. This year it happened twice.

See my rig at <a target="_blank" href=http://coloradok5.com/gallery/Leadfoot>http://coloradok5.com/gallery/Leadfoot</a>

 

[Blazer1970]

To correct some mis-info above, the Duramax 6600 was a completely new engine design for the 2001 GM HD trucks. The engine had never been used before. GM has been running test mules with the Dmax in Suburbans, but the story that I have heard is that they can not get adequate heat out of the Dmax engine to keep that huge 'Burban interior warm. I believe that this could easily be the obstacle that is keeping GM from producing this combo.

I have been driving my Dmax truck for a year now (20K miles), and it has been an absolute dream - still have the huge grin every time I get in. Truck has also been flawless.

I am not going to get into the brand wars, but there is a bunch of BS posted above in this thread by a couple of ridiculously brand loyal CTD owners. All we need is a ridiculously brand loyal Ford PSD owner to round out the BS. It is not true that the Dmax can not be modified for improved HP and torque, and the next few months will prove this. Good stuff starting to hit the market already.

My opinion is that the Cummins, International and Isuzu diesels are all awesome engines, and you pretty much can't go wrong with any of them. I will also agree that if you are looking to make major modifications right away, the 12V Cummins is an awesome choice - too bad about the truck that's wrapped around it.



Tim

70 Blazer CST 4X4 350 SM465 NP205
87 Burb 4X4 350
01 GMC 2500HD 4X4 Duramax/Allison