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6.2 questions. Diesel owners me pick your brain good

Well what I have found out from talking with some guys on thedieselpage, is that the gear drive sets are mostly likely done, as in no longer made. Which sucks cause they're a good product and are super easy to install. Far easier then a chain. So guess you're stuck running a chain setup.
 
AJMBLAZER said:
Dammit. Lack of orders?
Click to expand...
Probably not, just too good a product.

And that is only mostly a joke. The one main downside to mass production, is if you make something that never wears out or goes out of style, you will run out of customers.

However that does not explain the stopping of production of the finest paper towel ever made, Job Squad.

DIE! KIMBERLY-SCOTT DIE!
 
It is a good product that will last a long time. But I think it has more to do with not enough people knowing about the part and the engine only being made for the hummer for the past 9 years. Or as Kennedy in the dieselpage put it: Quote( Typical demise of a quality product. Major Whorehouses get the product, sell cheap, realize it's a slow mover and drop from inventory. The guys who know and stock it get frustrated and drop it too.

I also believe now that Pete has quit business due to illness. Not sure if we'll ever see the product again.

I'm out. Had I known I'd have laid some in, but DSG apparently wanted to keep them for retail sales or something 'cause I never heard boo until a customer contacted me looking for a leftover...)
 
Damn. That was on my eventual to-do list.

Think I need to start saving for that AMG 6500.
 
Just out of curiosity, what would a set of those gears sell for new if they were still being made?
Not now, when they are scarce, but back when they were still being made.

Most folks don't realize what has fairly quietly happened in this country.
I see more than most because I sometimes get called in to work on some of the equipment.

If you walk into a top of the line, high tech machine shop with a set of those gears, they can pretty much just ask how many do you want.

They can put the gear into a laser scanner that will scan an exact image directly into CAD. Call up the part, clean it up a little, run the post processor that converts the CAD image into machining codes.
Mount the right type steel into the machining center, hit start, and stand back.

The next time you reach in, you will pull out a finished gear.

Not to mention that you might find the gear already CADed up from the original maker.
Usually its labor that costs. Plus wear parts.

With super high speed cutters in TiN, or even harder stuff, and advanced coolants for heat control and lubricant, wear part cost is real low.
The same cutters will make lots of gears, and with everything automated, you might not have more than an hour of labor involved.
And if you could use something like a laser cutter or water jet, no consumables involved.

One off would be high, but a few dozen should bring the cost down. I already see two people here who would buy if the price is right.

Just thinking out loud......
 
Fordum said:
Just out of curiosity, what would a set of those gears sell for new if they were still being made?
Not now, when they are scarce, but back when they were still being made.

Most folks don't realize what has fairly quietly happened in this country.
I see more than most because I sometimes get called in to work on some of the equipment.

If you walk into a top of the line, high tech machine shop with a set of those gears, they can pretty much just ask how many do you want.

They can put the gear into a laser scanner that will scan an exact image directly into CAD. Call up the part, clean it up a little, run the post processor that converts the CAD image into machining codes.
Mount the right type steel into the machining center, hit start, and stand back.

The next time you reach in, you will pull out a finished gear.

Not to mention that you might find the gear already CADed up from the original maker.
Usually its labor that costs. Plus wear parts.

With super high speed cutters in TiN, or even harder stuff, and advanced coolants for heat control and lubricant, wear part cost is real low.
The same cutters will make lots of gears, and with everything automated, you might not have more than an hour of labor involved.
And if you could use something like a laser cutter or water jet, no consumables involved.

One off would be high, but a few dozen should bring the cost down. I already see two people here who would buy if the price is right.

Just thinking out loud......
Click to expand...


I work in the type of shop you speak of. We are production machine - we do jobs on per order basis. We do molds gears, sprockets, molds, dies, EDM, laser, and waterjet work, etc. To bring something like that and has us put the parts on the Micro-view and produce an AutoCAD blueprint, and then produce the part would cost a small fortune. You gotta think about what's involved. There are 4 gears (3 different gears) bearings, the girdle for the idler, and bores in gears are keyed. You are going to have to have at 8 or 9 separate pieces custom made. We made some spindle nuts for an old big obsolete Italian-built tractor last week that were around $260 each. The nuts were a unique, non-standard size, and no longer in production. guy was glad to pay it because you cannot even buy a tap the size it was and. That gear drive would be WAY more involved than that.
 
If we're gonna talk about custom making something I say getting a reverse ground cam and straight gear to gear would be a smarter move.

Custom ground cams are, well cheap believe it or not. Crane gets like $50 over retail cam price for one...

In fact with some good research I bet you could have the cam button ground to fit say a stock cam gear for another diesel that uses gear to gear timing. Then the only truly custom part would be the crank gear to mesh with the reverse cam and off the shelf cam gear.
 
67_C-30 said:
I work in the type of shop you speak of. We are production machine - we do jobs on per order basis. We do molds gears, sprockets, molds, dies, EDM, laser, and waterjet work, etc. To bring something like that and has us put the parts on the Micro-view and produce an AutoCAD blueprint, and then produce the part would cost a small fortune. You gotta think about what's involved. There are 4 gears (3 different gears) bearings, the girdle for the idler, and bores in gears are keyed. You are going to have to have at 8 or 9 separate pieces custom made. We made some spindle nuts for an old big obsolete Italian-built tractor last week that were around $260 each. The nuts were a unique, non-standard size, and no longer in production. guy was glad to pay it because you cannot even buy a tap the size it was and. That gear drive would be WAY more involved than that.
Click to expand...
I was hoping someone would chime in that worked in a place like that.

Part of the problem with my question was that I did not, and actually still do not, know exactly what I am considering.

The gear pictures posted here were of two types. Either direct gear to gear, or that little "bow tie" unit like fits some Ford engines.
And everybody said that was not what we were looking for.

So I did not know how involved it was.

BUT, don't forget, not everything has to be done in the high priced shop.
And the scan, while high-priced, is a one off event.

And may not be necessary.
If the gears are going to be made on a standard gear cutting machine, instead of a high speed automatic mill, or wire EDM, then simple hand measuring tools are enough.

Again, don't forget, I still have not seen a pic. I am just making guesses here so far.
But any bearings I would suspect, would be off the shelf.

Keyway cutting, nontapered is easy and cheap. Most of the folks here could do it in their home shop.
You would want a jig to hold the gear so that the keyway is lined up at the correct relationship to a tooth.

I'm not sure, without seeing them, that the gears are all necessarily custom.
There are a LOT of off the shelf gears out there.

When I am designing a machine, I try not to reinvent the wheel. If what I need has already been made, I use it if it fits my needs.

Sometimes companies will make something of all off the shelf items, with one proprietary one.
This may be the case here.

But if not, then somebody made those gears. In a shop. Were they the only uses for them, or did they just pick a gear that they were making anyway?

I realize that there are limits, since they have to wind up with a final ratio of 2:1 and they have to achieve that while working with the distance between the crank and cam.
But with an idler gear, you have a little wiggle room depending on where you mount it.

SO, everybody reading this, and replying to it, what has it cost you so far?
A half cent of electricity and a few minutes of your time.
Which obviously you have to spare, or you would not be hanging around here.

What we need now, is an actual set of the gears for pics and to look for markings on. Anybody out there got a set?

Don't forget, this is 2010, not 1960. We can search more places and get more information in less time than it would take to drive to a store like Motion Industries and look at their catalogs.
Probably nothing will come of this, but as long as its basically a free exercise, lets go for it until it is proven impossible.
At least it will keep you off the porn sites for a little while.......

OH, and why am doing this? I do not own one of these engines. Don't imagine I ever will.
But finding solutions to problems by thinking outside the box is probably my main job description.
I'm good at it, and I enjoy it.
A friend of mine and I were once going to set up a cross discipline part locater service, but he had to up and die on me, and I never got started.

Remind me to tell you the story about the RCA Quad machine switch some time.

OH, and what drives the oil pump on one of these beasts? Thinking about the reverse ground cam.......
 
Fordum said:
I was hoping someone would chime in that worked in a place like that.

Part of the problem with my question was that I did not, and actually still do not, know exactly what I am considering.

The gear pictures posted here were of two types. Either direct gear to gear, or that little "bow tie" unit like fits some Ford engines.
And everybody said that was not what we were looking for.

So I did not know how involved it was.

BUT, don't forget, not everything has to be done in the high priced shop.
And the scan, while high-priced, is a one off event.

And may not be necessary.
If the gears are going to be made on a standard gear cutting machine, instead of a high speed automatic mill, or wire EDM, then simple hand measuring tools are enough.

Again, don't forget, I still have not seen a pic. I am just making guesses here so far.
But any bearings I would suspect, would be off the shelf.

Keyway cutting, nontapered is easy and cheap. Most of the folks here could do it in their home shop.
You would want a jig to hold the gear so that the keyway is lined up at the correct relationship to a tooth.

I'm not sure, without seeing them, that the gears are all necessarily custom.
There are a LOT of off the shelf gears out there.

When I am designing a machine, I try not to reinvent the wheel. If what I need has already been made, I use it if it fits my needs.

Sometimes companies will make something of all off the shelf items, with one proprietary one.
This may be the case here.

But if not, then somebody made those gears. In a shop. Were they the only uses for them, or did they just pick a gear that they were making anyway?

I realize that there are limits, since they have to wind up with a final ratio of 2:1 and they have to achieve that while working with the distance between the crank and cam.
But with an idler gear, you have a little wiggle room depending on where you mount it.

SO, everybody reading this, and replying to it, what has it cost you so far?
A half cent of electricity and a few minutes of your time.
Which obviously you have to spare, or you would not be hanging around here.

What we need now, is an actual set of the gears for pics and to look for markings on. Anybody out there got a set?

Don't forget, this is 2010, not 1960. We can search more places and get more information in less time than it would take to drive to a store like Motion Industries and look at their catalogs.
Probably nothing will come of this, but as long as its basically a free exercise, lets go for it until it is proven impossible.
At least it will keep you off the porn sites for a little while.......

OH, and why am doing this? I do not own one of these engines. Don't imagine I ever will.
But finding solutions to problems by thinking outside the box is probably my main job description.
I'm good at it, and I enjoy it.
A friend of mine and I were once going to set up a cross discipline part locater service, but he had to up and die on me, and I never got started.

Remind me to tell you the story about the RCA Quad machine switch some time.

OH, and what drives the oil pump on one of these beasts? Thinking about the reverse ground cam.......
Click to expand...


Good point. The oil pump is driven just like a SBC off the came as far as I know. Vacuum pump too. Guess it would require reverse technologies in those departments there.
 
there might be a reverse ground cam and oil pump out there for a marine application.


I think its a waste of time to go gear to gear. The Idler set-up has proven itself to be MUCH more accurate,reliable,and long lasting then the chain.(In this Engine)Hopefully another company will produce them
 
If I remember correctly they cost around $250 for the set. Now had this come up about a month ago I could of taken pictures of mine while I was doing the came swap. OK, I found a picture of a gear drive setup. Its actually a comparison between the gear and chain setup.

http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?t=34644&highlight=timing+gear

I have also found that these must have been discontinued pretty recently as I saw a couple post of people buying them back in may of this year.
 
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