The column shifted three speed was the standard transmission still in the '87 R10, but was only available with the V6.
Martin
Martin
CK5
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67~91 4WD Manual Transmission I.D. Resource: SM420 SM465 SM330 NP440
- Thread starter tarussell
- Start date
True, but according to the GM brochures it was last offered in the 4WD’s in ‘81 - I stuck with only the 4x4’s to keep it simpler and relevant to what most folks would be searching for.
NV4500 to SM465 Comparison shots. Courtesy of Larry and his flickr page.
465 to 4500 overall length:
Early 4500, you can tell by the non-bolt on shift tower.
Comparisons:
Bell housing comparisions:
Overall length difference to 465 with a round pattern adapter to 4500.
465 to 4500 overall length:
Early 4500, you can tell by the non-bolt on shift tower.
Comparisons:
Bell housing comparisions:
Overall length difference to 465 with a round pattern adapter to 4500.
I should have gone with a 4500.
One other thing to note about the 4500's. There's a third GM version rarely talked about, mainly because there weren't many used. But the GMT800 trucks did use the NV4500 on 2500HD's equipped with a 6.0L gas engine. The main difference is the height of the shifter. The GMT800 version is a couple of inches taller to make up for the 2" rise in the body the HD's had. Top plates and Shifter base are the only thing that differ over the other "late" 4500's
Damn fine 4500 information!NV4500 to SM465 Comparison shots. Courtesy of Larry and his flickr page.
465 to 4500 overall length:
Early 4500, you can tell by the non-bolt on shift tower.
Comparisons:
Bell housing comparisions:
Overall length difference to 465 with a round pattern adapter to 4500.
If ya go with a 4500 then it’s almost mandatory that you back it up with a Magnum unit while you’re at it - just say’n…
With 5.86’s you damn sure could use the overdrive!
Eeeeaaasyy bro…
Sometimes it’s good to give a little push…
I'll counter that statement, while not a bad idea not everybody needs 100:1+ double compound low ratios. I took a serious look at doing just that as a magnum/205 setup is marginally longer than a 241 than I have in my truck. If my experience on Steelbender in Moab did anything, it solidified that my truck is not a full blown double throwdown rock crawler like most that was on the trail with me that day. So needing insanely low gearing really wasn't needed for the kind of wheeling I like to do.
What I have I think is a great compromise with deep enough gearing to get through the mild and medium difficulty trails I like and still have decent highway manners since mine gets driven everywhere. In my case, I'm running a hybrid setup of a nv4500. Mine is a later version ('96 and up) but built with the early 6.34:1 ratio instead of the 5.61:1 ratio. This gives me a compound low ratio of 70:1 in low gear/low range with my 4.10 gearing. That's proven to be deep enough gearing to help on steep downhill climbs as well as uphill ones. But going along with with my axle ratio and 35" tires affords me a cruise RPM at 70mph that is right in line with stock GM trucks that would have been equipped with the 8.1. This way my engine is not buzzing along even in OD like it could be if I was running deeper gears in the axles. Comparing to Larry's K10, my compound low ratio is over 20 points deeper than his with a 5.61:1 4500, 205 and 4.56 gears. Do I have the bulletproof 205 iron case no, but again I'm not going to be on super difficult rock crawling trails to require that kind of beef in a cast iron case when I could put a better skid plate under my 241 to protect it.
The odd thing is prior to the shop I got my rebuilt nv4500 from I was not aware of the ability to "mix and match" the gearing from the early unit to the housing of the later unit. Had we not loaded a Dodge trans (in error) in my pickup when I went to get the rebuild I wouldn't have know it was possible. The owner of the shop caught it (single rib on the extension housing vs two for GM as Eddie noted) when I was strapping it down. Embarrassed he had me unload it and invited me inside to check out the shop. I noticed on the shop tour he had early and late versions in the shop. I asked if it was possible to get the deeper first gear in the later case. He said sure, they do it fairly frequently. Since he had to build me another trans anyway, he asked if that's the way I wanted it built. I said absolutely I would. He told me no problem and to come back in two days to pick it up.
One other thing to remember on NV4500's is the need for the correct fluid to run in it. Stock nv4500's use carbon fiber based synchronizers vs brass units. This requires the use of a very specific GM syncromesh fluid that is very pricey per quart. If you don't use the fluid you'll kill the synchros in short order. Though if you are rebuilding your own, brass synchronizers are available and would allow you to run standard gear oil.
While everything you said is as valid as can be these facts you’ve presented are making my argument with John about the Magnum more difficult - you are being sensible and rational and I’m try’n to get John to “go for the gusto” like an old beer commercial.
It’s hard enough to convince him without all these good points and good reasoning being made…
Also, good point on the special spec fluid for the 4500’s with the fiber blocker rings - I was shocked at the price per quart for its specific oil when I changed the fluid in my NVG-5600.
It’s hard enough to convince him without all these good points and good reasoning being made…
Also, good point on the special spec fluid for the 4500’s with the fiber blocker rings - I was shocked at the price per quart for its specific oil when I changed the fluid in my NVG-5600.
If you have a single transfer case, an NP241 is a much better option than an NP205.
Martin
Martin
I think that depends on the application, for the majority I would agree with you.
Yes the 241 has lower gearing and it's lighter. But what if you don't need the lower gearing, and what if you need the strength of the 205?
Ideally you would have the strength of the 205 with the weight of the 241, but that's nearly impossible, even the new aluminum chain drive HD T-cases(NV271) weigh almost as much as the 205 anyway.
I have some questions for this thread.
How does the NV3500 compare to the NV4500, and what is this NVG5600 I see mentioned?
Can we add the factory torque input ratings for all these transmissions for reference?
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I will answer briefly, the nv3500 is lighter duty and was offered in 1/2 tons, it does have a better gear ratio spread probably because it doesn't have a deep 1st gear.
The nvg5600 is the 6 speed that was behind the diesel engines and has a high torque rating but also physically bigger, I believe as big as the Allison so it will not fit a square without modifications.
@obijuank5 iirc has one in his crew cab he built.
Y'all have me wanting to convert my 700r4 blazer to an nv4500 when I do the BBC swap now. I'm just hating the idea of spending a crapton of money on a 4l80e and a controller just to handle that torque. Maybe I should keep my eyes open for manual parts instead....
Aside from sourcing all the parts, is auto -> manual in a K5 a PITA or pretty much a direct swap for all the relevant pieces? Any little bits that are particularly difficult to source?
Aside from sourcing all the parts, is auto -> manual in a K5 a PITA or pretty much a direct swap for all the relevant pieces? Any little bits that are particularly difficult to source?
The 4L80E can handle a mild BBC pretty much stock, maybe a 34 element sprag and a shift kit.
You can also wire it to shift manually with the shifter for free.
It still won't have a clutch pedal though if that's what you really want.
I totally get the overkill idea. Part of my decision making process was cost. I had the 241 in hand and I’d have to buy a round pattern case 205 and a magnum. Round pattern 205’s are not falling out of trees around here and as such are a bit a spendy. Magnums aren’t cheap either.
The 3500’s were only equipped in 1/2 tons and s10’s. No granny gear. The 1/2 tons would have been with the 4.3, 5.7 or 4.8 in the gnt800 trucks.
I’m on my second s10 with a 3500. Shift quality is good and perfectly adequate for low power applications. If you don’t need or want a granny gear it’s a decent option. I just wouldn’t toss a big power engine in front of it.
I’ve probably driven a 5600 a couple of times and to my understanding Gm never used it as they went to the ZF six speed in the HD truck. But seeing them out of a truck both the 5600 and ZF 6 speeds are big units.
The hardest part is the swapping of the pedal set. Actually it’s not hard, just tedious. I’ll admit it was much easier with the engine out of the way.
Finding a hydraulic pedal set is probably the hardest part. Other than that it’s a pretty direct swap. The late 4500 integral space adapts to a stock square body clutch master cylinder pretty easy with an adapter on each end with a -3 AN line. Clutch feel is dang near identical to the factory hydro clutch in my s10.
Don’t waste money on an advance adapter bell housing to use a stock square body external slave. It’s not needed if you get the right bell housing. The early bell housing with the slave on the passenger side can work if you are running at least 4” of lift. But the late bell housing is perfect on a square and if you use a quality integrated slave you really don’t have to worry about it.
That’s a good idea of including the input torque ratings on each transmission - I’ll work on that and update the list.
Note: ( for those that need it ) something to keep in mind of these ratings is that they are tide into the GVWR of each application - meaning a World Class BW T-5 in a Camaro and a a H.D. NVG-4500 in a GMT400 may have a similar input rating but the overall strength of each case is miles apart.
Here’s a few pics of a NVG-5600 as well as some comparisons between the 4500 & 5600.
The 5600 is very large and extremely heavy - the inclosed iron case almost eliminates case deflection and the dimensions between the main & counter shaft is a major strength contributor.
The NV-3500 is put in 1/2-ton trucks and S-10’s for a reason - it just ain’t gonna cut it in a heavier or hard worked application.
It drives nice and the gear ratio splits are great for the street atmosphere but that’s about it.
It drives nice and the gear ratio splits are great for the street atmosphere but that’s about it.
