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'72 K5 - Greg's @MightAsWellK5 Build
- Thread starter Greg72
- Start date
This is the build description. I will improve this later. (GB)
Quick update:
I'm still working on the background processes that will allow me to figure out the mounting location for the panhard bar and draglink...
First step was to get motor mounts installed that wouldn't block the upper link from achieving full stuff. I decided to do a top-of-the-framerail mount with a small notch in the gussets to allow clearance.
For symmetry, I decided to do a similar mount on the drivers side as well. Here's a shot of how they looked prior to final welding.
It's hard to see in this photo, but if you look closely you can see the mounts installed on both sides of the engine during some of the early test-fitting steps....
I deliberately made the mounts high enough that they use a 1" spacer for my existing rubber mounts. This buys me some flexibility to swap the mounts for a fluid-filled type later on if I choose to (as long as they aren't taller than 2" overall)
Next on the agenda is to get the knuckles installed booth sides of the axle so I can find my exact steering axis.... Again, for the panhard bar installation. Pulled out a bunch of Tupperware with small parts and tried to clear out the cobwebs and remember how they went back together...
Fortunately, I took in-process photos of the tear down after each step so I can go back to confirm everything. I still need to tear down one original knuckle and repaint it, but I think I'll wait until nicer weather arrives for that. It's covered in military green paint which I understand it seriously toxic to sand off... So I'll wait until I have more fresh air and ventilation available.
-G
I'm still working on the background processes that will allow me to figure out the mounting location for the panhard bar and draglink...
First step was to get motor mounts installed that wouldn't block the upper link from achieving full stuff. I decided to do a top-of-the-framerail mount with a small notch in the gussets to allow clearance.
For symmetry, I decided to do a similar mount on the drivers side as well. Here's a shot of how they looked prior to final welding.
It's hard to see in this photo, but if you look closely you can see the mounts installed on both sides of the engine during some of the early test-fitting steps....
I deliberately made the mounts high enough that they use a 1" spacer for my existing rubber mounts. This buys me some flexibility to swap the mounts for a fluid-filled type later on if I choose to (as long as they aren't taller than 2" overall)
Next on the agenda is to get the knuckles installed booth sides of the axle so I can find my exact steering axis.... Again, for the panhard bar installation. Pulled out a bunch of Tupperware with small parts and tried to clear out the cobwebs and remember how they went back together...
Fortunately, I took in-process photos of the tear down after each step so I can go back to confirm everything. I still need to tear down one original knuckle and repaint it, but I think I'll wait until nicer weather arrives for that. It's covered in military green paint which I understand it seriously toxic to sand off... So I'll wait until I have more fresh air and ventilation available.
-G
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FrostBite
1/2 ton status
Are you concerned with the motor mounts having too much leverage against the block and tearing out the bottom bolts? You may have covered it and I forgot (long thread) but could you run a bent upper link to better clear the mount?
Fortunately, I took in-process photos of the tear down after each step so I can go back to confirm everything. I still need to tear down one original knuckle and repaint it, but I think I'll wait until nicer weather arrives for that. It's covered in military green paint which I understand it seriously toxic to sand off... So I'll wait until I have more fresh air and ventilation available.
-G
Ballpeen. Scott would be proud
I can add a bit regarding the paint toxicity. In the era of the CUCV's, anyway, the US military used CARC paint, which is supposedly fairly nasty when removed. Realistically, though, I imagine that's when removed in large quantities, i.e. a whole vehicle, and a relatively small part wouldn't be so catastrophic.
Also, I don't remember where your Unimog parts came from. As I understand it, only the US military used this stuff, so if your axles were from the Bundeswehr they should just have regular paint with regular toxicity issues
-- A
Eat Soot
1/2 ton status
-G you need to stop this build...You make the rest of our s*it boxes look like Playskool kits....
Jealousy rears it's ugly head! Ha
Looks great.
Jealousy rears it's ugly head! Ha
Looks great.
-G you need to stop this build...You make the rest of our s*it boxes look like Playskool kits....
Jealousy rears it's ugly head! Ha
Looks great.
ES,
You can't have it both ways.....
If I wasn't so insanely deep into this build (and K5 obsession) I wouldn't be able to comment on your build with helpful advice either.
Personally, I am still wondering how it's possible that I've already owned this truck for 12 years. That doesn't even seem possible.
-G
Pulling this comment back for more discussion...
Does it matter if the 1* of angularity comes from rotating the pinion upwards, or could the lateral angularity (atlas output is slightly offset from pinion laterally in frame) allow the needle bearings to rotate and wear properly?
I'm debating what to set my caster value to (again!). There is a characteristic called "mechanical trail" that is a bit different with a portal axle vs. conventional axle.... Theoretically, a portal axle shouldn't require as much caster, so I'm tempted to dial out just a bit of caster from where I am now.
-G
Slight lateral angle would be OK, as long as the ujoint isn't perfectly straight.
Also, caster is very important for handling. I am running 10 degrees, I was shooting for 8, but ended up with more, and I like it that way. I would err on the side of slightly more caster than less. I've never dealt with portals, but I could see how the steering pivot hitting further forward of the contact patch with the same caster angle could add a little return feel, but it still won't angle the tire any more when you are turning at high speed, which is important for handling and traction while turning at speed when the tire bead wants to roll.
Also, caster is very important for handling. I am running 10 degrees, I was shooting for 8, but ended up with more, and I like it that way. I would err on the side of slightly more caster than less. I've never dealt with portals, but I could see how the steering pivot hitting further forward of the contact patch with the same caster angle could add a little return feel, but it still won't angle the tire any more when you are turning at high speed, which is important for handling and traction while turning at speed when the tire bead wants to roll.
2013.01.15 - UPDATE! - BUSTED KNUCKLE....
I don't really like the instructions in the UniMog manual I've got, and it took me a while to figure out what I did last time so I decided to take photos and carefully document the teardown process of a front 404 knuckle assembly.... for myself in the future, and for anyone who wants to try it themselves.
This is the DS knuckle. It's installed upside down (large bearing cup at the top) in the vise to start the teardown.
The first thing to do is find the part of the washer that has been bent upwards to help lock the large nut in place. It's usually a single "tab" that needs to be pried away from the nut and gently hammered down flat again.
After that, choose your favorite enormous wrench to break that nut free. I tried to build my own out of some 1/4" plate but it was a total FAIL. I ended up using a regular old pipe wrench.
Here is a shot of what you'll end up with once that cap is removed.... (Cap, castle nut, cotter pin and long clamping pin)
Once this part of the knuckle has been disassembled, you can actually seperate the two parts (Inner-C and Outer Knuckle)
For the next step, I'll put the Inner-C aside for the time being and focus on the outer knuckle... These are the parts that you'll still have to remove to strip the outer knuckle completely bare.
The large lower bearing cup has a thick bronze washer in the bottom of it... it's going to end up either stuck to the underside of this cup, or it will remain with the inner-C when you pull the two halves apart.
The upper kingpin is a simple bronze cup with a fat, donut-shaped o-ring to seal the area... in this image, you can see that mine is totally wasted. I've got a call in to Scott (Expedition Imports) for some replacements.
This is a shot to give a general sense of how the parts ultimately go back together.... (obviously the lower bearing race and the entire Inner-C gets inserted into this assembly as well before the large screw goes back through everything...)
Press Setups:
You need to remove the large lower bearing cup FIRST, to gain access to the upper kingpin cup.... here's the first setup I used to accomplish that.
The final item to strip the outer knuckle is the upper kingpin bushing. It comes out pretty easily compared to the lower.
That's as far as I got last night. I'll edit this later on and add the extra details about the teardown of the Inner-C.... and probably will show the re-assembly too once I have everything cleaned up, painted and looking good. Last time I did one of these I waited a REALLY long time to put it back together and forgot where everything was supposed to go.... I ended up wasting a lot of time studying all the parts and pieces until it finally made sense.
-G
I don't really like the instructions in the UniMog manual I've got, and it took me a while to figure out what I did last time so I decided to take photos and carefully document the teardown process of a front 404 knuckle assembly.... for myself in the future, and for anyone who wants to try it themselves.
This is the DS knuckle. It's installed upside down (large bearing cup at the top) in the vise to start the teardown.
The first thing to do is find the part of the washer that has been bent upwards to help lock the large nut in place. It's usually a single "tab" that needs to be pried away from the nut and gently hammered down flat again.
After that, choose your favorite enormous wrench to break that nut free. I tried to build my own out of some 1/4" plate but it was a total FAIL. I ended up using a regular old pipe wrench.
Here is a shot of what you'll end up with once that cap is removed.... (Cap, castle nut, cotter pin and long clamping pin)
Once this part of the knuckle has been disassembled, you can actually seperate the two parts (Inner-C and Outer Knuckle)
For the next step, I'll put the Inner-C aside for the time being and focus on the outer knuckle... These are the parts that you'll still have to remove to strip the outer knuckle completely bare.
The large lower bearing cup has a thick bronze washer in the bottom of it... it's going to end up either stuck to the underside of this cup, or it will remain with the inner-C when you pull the two halves apart.
The upper kingpin is a simple bronze cup with a fat, donut-shaped o-ring to seal the area... in this image, you can see that mine is totally wasted. I've got a call in to Scott (Expedition Imports) for some replacements.
This is a shot to give a general sense of how the parts ultimately go back together.... (obviously the lower bearing race and the entire Inner-C gets inserted into this assembly as well before the large screw goes back through everything...)
Press Setups:
You need to remove the large lower bearing cup FIRST, to gain access to the upper kingpin cup.... here's the first setup I used to accomplish that.
The final item to strip the outer knuckle is the upper kingpin bushing. It comes out pretty easily compared to the lower.
That's as far as I got last night. I'll edit this later on and add the extra details about the teardown of the Inner-C.... and probably will show the re-assembly too once I have everything cleaned up, painted and looking good. Last time I did one of these I waited a REALLY long time to put it back together and forgot where everything was supposed to go.... I ended up wasting a lot of time studying all the parts and pieces until it finally made sense.
-G
Don't know it I'll ever need this knowledge, but nice write up on the tear down.
I'm sure the next guy that goes down this road sure will be happy that you took the time to show what's, what, though..
I'm sure the next guy that goes down this road sure will be happy that you took the time to show what's, what, though..
I think it can be pretty interesting to see how the German engineers design solutions compared to how our typical American stuff usually looks...
For sure, they LOVE desiging all kinds of super-tight, press fit parts. It takes almost 20-tons of pressure to remove a portal hub!!! Lots of bronze parts in these knuckles too, and overall the portals have scads of really nice beefy-sized bearings everywhere.
It's a bit daunting to dig into them at first, but once you get a few specialized tools it isn't too bad to get them apart and back together again.
-G
For sure, they LOVE desiging all kinds of super-tight, press fit parts. It takes almost 20-tons of pressure to remove a portal hub!!! Lots of bronze parts in these knuckles too, and overall the portals have scads of really nice beefy-sized bearings everywhere.
It's a bit daunting to dig into them at first, but once you get a few specialized tools it isn't too bad to get them apart and back together again.
-G
I think it can be pretty interesting to see how the German engineers design solutions compared to how our typical American stuff usually looks...
For sure, they LOVE desiging all kinds of super-tight, press fit parts. It takes almost 20-tons of pressure to remove a portal hub!!! Lots of bronze parts in these knuckles too, and overall the portals have scads of really nice beefy-sized bearings everywhere.
I remember reading somewhere about the differences between American and German engineering and manufacturing during WWII.
Even towards the end, while US factories daily churned out however many hundreds of B17's and thousands of AA guns and rifles and whathaveyou in miles-long mass production lines, German designs still called for hand-file-to-fit for like half of the machine parts.
Beautiful pieces of work, sure, but most were never finished or used to lack of parts or fuel. That sort of perfectionist attitude certainly contributed to the Nazis' downfall.Anyway, history aside, that is an amazing piece of engineering. (I'm bummed, though, from the thread title of "Busted Knuckle" I thought you'd actually cracked it, or your own
)-- A
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Nope.... no busted knuckles. Just running out of puns for the teardown of knuckle parts!
That knuckle paint BTW is the "CARC" I was worried about sanding off... I wore a good 3M filter mask for the majority of the cleaning on the outer knuckle last night just to be safe.
....so far, I'm not dead yet.
-G
That knuckle paint BTW is the "CARC" I was worried about sanding off... I wore a good 3M filter mask for the majority of the cleaning on the outer knuckle last night just to be safe.
....so far, I'm not dead yet.
-G
scotto0609
1/2 ton status
I really have enjoyed the whole thread and admire your detail and hard work. That being said being the lazy bastard that i am would it have been easier to start with a unimog and rebody it and put the big block in it? Again please take no offense it was just me wondering if you ever considered it?
I remember reading somewhere about the differences between American and German engineering and manufacturing during WWII.
Even towards the end, while US factories daily churned out however many hundreds of B17's and thousands of AA guns and rifles and whathaveyou in miles-long mass production lines, German designs still called for hand-file-to-fit for like half of the machine parts.
Anyway, history aside, that is an amazing piece of engineering. (I'm bummed, though, from the thread title of "Busted Knuckle" I thought you'd actually cracked it, or your own
-- A
yup, the Germans just could not get away from engineering excellence... you could see it in the Maybach tank engines, an exceptionally detailed and complicated casting to save pounds, with roller bearings that'll last 100 yrs.... ummmm, guys, it's a tank, it's more than likely gonna be blown up in a few months....
back to the Mog goodness...
LOL!
Well.... I suppose if I had a crystal ball 5 years ago and could have anticipated every setback and detail in advance, I would have given it some thought.
Realistically, a stock UniMog 404 would still not offer the kind of suspension travel we're talking about here.... it would have 7.56 gears and would require me to use 20" wheels to clear the massive drum brakes. It would have the fragile mechanical lockers and no CTIS either. It also uses torsion tubes as part of the suspension... I'm not sure how I'd have made those work.
....I think when you enumerate all of the things that would still need attention, its clear that dropping a K5 body onto a UniMog chassis (and then swapping out the entire drivetrain) wouldn't really get me all the way there either...
Projects like this are great to watch from a distance. Once you see all the struggles and effort and the ideas that end up going nowhere (typical R&D type stuff that happens) you realize that the learning process is what burns up all the hours..... for sure, if I ever decided to build ANOTHER truck like this my process would be insanely fast compared to what is happening here. I'd know immediately how to cut up the body, how to prepare the frame for the suspension mods, and I wouldn't even bother buying complete 404 axles next time. I'd just buy the pieces I really need, since probably 90% ends up in the scrap heap anyway...
...and that's to say nothing of my own "personal development" during this process as well. Keep in mind, I'm no Steve Strope (PureVision Design) or Troy Trepanier (Rad Rides by Troy) with gobs of fabricating and car building experience to fall back on. This truck is my FIRST real automotive build, so every little thing that I need to know I'm learning as I go. It can be frustrating at times because I'm sure there are a million "little tricks" out there that could save me time, but my skill set is limited to what I figure out on my own, or stumble across on a message forum somewhere.
-G
Well.... I suppose if I had a crystal ball 5 years ago and could have anticipated every setback and detail in advance, I would have given it some thought.
Realistically, a stock UniMog 404 would still not offer the kind of suspension travel we're talking about here.... it would have 7.56 gears and would require me to use 20" wheels to clear the massive drum brakes. It would have the fragile mechanical lockers and no CTIS either. It also uses torsion tubes as part of the suspension... I'm not sure how I'd have made those work.
....I think when you enumerate all of the things that would still need attention, its clear that dropping a K5 body onto a UniMog chassis (and then swapping out the entire drivetrain) wouldn't really get me all the way there either...
Projects like this are great to watch from a distance. Once you see all the struggles and effort and the ideas that end up going nowhere (typical R&D type stuff that happens) you realize that the learning process is what burns up all the hours..... for sure, if I ever decided to build ANOTHER truck like this my process would be insanely fast compared to what is happening here. I'd know immediately how to cut up the body, how to prepare the frame for the suspension mods, and I wouldn't even bother buying complete 404 axles next time. I'd just buy the pieces I really need, since probably 90% ends up in the scrap heap anyway...
...and that's to say nothing of my own "personal development" during this process as well. Keep in mind, I'm no Steve Strope (PureVision Design) or Troy Trepanier (Rad Rides by Troy) with gobs of fabricating and car building experience to fall back on. This truck is my FIRST real automotive build, so every little thing that I need to know I'm learning as I go. It can be frustrating at times because I'm sure there are a million "little tricks" out there that could save me time, but my skill set is limited to what I figure out on my own, or stumble across on a message forum somewhere.
-G
I might be to blame on this, I told Greg years ago to just jump in head first or it's not an adventure. This was of course about him towing his blazer home because he had a bad water pump and it was 8:30pm in a dark part of town and I told him we'll just fix it on the side of the road right here and then you'll DRIVE it home.
Maybe he spiraled out of control when I told him that.
I might be to blame on this, I told Greg years ago to just jump in head first or it's not an adventure. This was of course about him towing his blazer home because he had a bad water pump and it was 8:30pm in a dark part of town and I told him we'll just fix it on the side of the road right here and then you'll DRIVE it home.
I think a little success can lead to a lifetime of "improvements"
Nice push Scott!
2013.01.20 - UPDATE - RANDOM PROGRESS....
Spent today dealing with a few random items. No real sexy milestones today...
I spent about an hour prepping my vise for a new set of jaws. Unscrewed the handle until the moveable jaw came all the way out and found a sloppy drive gear barely hanging on. Sort of like a long flat bar with teeth in it, set into a groove on the underside of the jaw. I drilled and pinned it into place and put a couple of small tack welds on each end to lock it in place. It actually helped get rid of a LOT of sloppiness in the mechanism. Worth the time invested. I also ground down the existing screws in the jaws so that I'd have a nice flush area to drill/tap for my replacement jaw set. There's a set on the way already... So maybe next weekend I can get them installed and be back to business.
I also put in a small order for some additional Mog knuckle seals, and decided that it would make sense to strip the remaining knuckle down to bare metal and get it painted while I wait for parts.
INNER "C" TEARDOWN:
First step was breaking down the center bushing and seals. Here are two possible configurations in Mogland,sometimes the bronze bushing is pressed in from the axletube side.... Sometimes it's pressed in from the outside of the "C" and locked in place by the outer washer. I've got the "better" option (option #2) shown here. Less chance of the bushing ever backing out...
Here's a good shot that shows how the components are stacked into that space.
After some quality time with my 20-ton press, this is how it all ends up:
I spent about an hour with a wire wheel trying to clean off the OD green paint from all the crevices....
...it was getting ludicrously hard to get into the crevices, so even though it's the dead-of-winter, I dragged my sandblaster out into the yard and spent a few minutes getting both the knuckle and inner c completely perfect. It was a serious hassle to deal with sandblasting this time of year, but it ultimately saved me a ton of time.
Got them immediately into Ryoken Green.
Put the wet parts close to the heater to speed up the drying time, and was able to get them into final color on the same day.
Next steps...... A couple more portals to build with disc brake conversions.
....next time.......
-G
Spent today dealing with a few random items. No real sexy milestones today...
I spent about an hour prepping my vise for a new set of jaws. Unscrewed the handle until the moveable jaw came all the way out and found a sloppy drive gear barely hanging on. Sort of like a long flat bar with teeth in it, set into a groove on the underside of the jaw. I drilled and pinned it into place and put a couple of small tack welds on each end to lock it in place. It actually helped get rid of a LOT of sloppiness in the mechanism. Worth the time invested. I also ground down the existing screws in the jaws so that I'd have a nice flush area to drill/tap for my replacement jaw set. There's a set on the way already... So maybe next weekend I can get them installed and be back to business.
I also put in a small order for some additional Mog knuckle seals, and decided that it would make sense to strip the remaining knuckle down to bare metal and get it painted while I wait for parts.
INNER "C" TEARDOWN:
First step was breaking down the center bushing and seals. Here are two possible configurations in Mogland,sometimes the bronze bushing is pressed in from the axletube side.... Sometimes it's pressed in from the outside of the "C" and locked in place by the outer washer. I've got the "better" option (option #2) shown here. Less chance of the bushing ever backing out...
Here's a good shot that shows how the components are stacked into that space.
After some quality time with my 20-ton press, this is how it all ends up:
I spent about an hour with a wire wheel trying to clean off the OD green paint from all the crevices....
...it was getting ludicrously hard to get into the crevices, so even though it's the dead-of-winter, I dragged my sandblaster out into the yard and spent a few minutes getting both the knuckle and inner c completely perfect. It was a serious hassle to deal with sandblasting this time of year, but it ultimately saved me a ton of time.
Got them immediately into Ryoken Green.
Put the wet parts close to the heater to speed up the drying time, and was able to get them into final color on the same day.
Next steps...... A couple more portals to build with disc brake conversions.
....next time.......
-G
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