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'72 K5 - Greg's @MightAsWellK5 Build
- Thread starter Greg72
- Start date
This is the build description. I will improve this later. (GB)
Incredible Greg! You have to be feeling pretty great right now!!! 
2013.07.10 - UPDATE! - ONE-AND-A-HALF INCHES...
This is a good sign.
That components are moving in such small increments is a good indicator that the overall suspension design is getting close to its final iteration...
Here is a shot of the drivers side... (left to right) Idler arm, tie rod, and PHB bracket (PHB moved back 1.5" from yesterday)
....and here's the PHB bracket moved back 1.5" on the passenger side. You can see how much closer it is now to the upper link mount bracketry:
Here's a close up of the clearance (or lack thereof) to the upper link bracket....don't worry, there is a slight gap in there and the tube I'm using for mock-up is 1.75" diameter....the final version of this tube will only be 1.5" so there will be a tad more clearance than this photo show....
Nice.
Now for some overall shots of the complete assembly for context... (try to ignore the casters and frame bracing to look specifically at the tie rod, PHB and draglink)
And a final image that illustrates why I have been working literally for YEARS to get these axles to fit under my truck... the "Homer Bucket" demo!
Lots of clearance everywhere under that axle. There isn't a mall on this planet that cant be conquered.
-G
Amazing !!!
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Thanks!
Incredible Greg! You have to be feeling pretty great right now!!!
Yep!
It's a good feeling to have the front suspension "locked-in" with links and PHB and not flopping all over the place, and to remove the jackstands from underneath it. Technically, it's still not resting on it's own weight (front casters & bracing) but that won't be on there for much longer.My plan is to remove the wheels/tires and possibly the portal housings and brakes over the weekend so that it will be easier to cycle the suspension and check for interferences. Those portals add a metric sh1t-ton of weight to the axle and make it a lot harder to work with....especially when the cycling is all being done with light-duty ratchet straps. When one of those gets overloaded and jumps a tooth on the gear it really gets the adrenaline pumping!
The Homer Bucket test is always a good motivator for me as well, and it seems like a good way to add some much needed scale to these images. For an outsider looking at these it must be hard sometimes to appreciate just how much clearance has been achieved with the Mog-9s over a conventional 1-Ton axle setup..... and I'm not even riding on fo-dee-fohs like some people.
-G
Thanks!
Yep!
My plan is to remove the wheels/tires and possibly the portal housings and brakes over the weekend so that it will be easier to cycle the suspension and check for interferences. Those portals add a metric sh1t-ton of weight to the axle and make it a lot harder to work with....especially when the cycling is all being done with light-duty ratchet straps. When one of those gets overloaded and jumps a tooth on the gear it really gets the adrenaline pumping!
The Homer Bucket test is always a good motivator for me as well, and it seems like a good way to add some much needed scale to these images. For an outsider looking at these it must be hard sometimes to appreciate just how much clearance has been achieved with the Mog-9s over a conventional 1-Ton axle setup..... and I'm not even riding on fo-dee-fohs like some people.
-G
lol FO-DEE-FOHS!!! Just think if you did have FO-DEE-FOHS
lol FO-DEE-FOHS!!! Just think if you did have FO-DEE-FOHS
Why stop there?..... maybe some fiddy-fohs!
-G
The homer bucket test makes me insanely jealous.
Other than the extremely high risk of body damage your truck would do very very well out here Greg. Clearance is king with as many rollers and diff grabbers as we have
That front end looks stellar. Every thing appears that it will fit or come very close to fitting, doesn't look like anything major will need to moved around.
Like Jess said that has really gotta be a good feeling knowing that everything is basically in its final position. Hell it makes me excited
Other than the extremely high risk of body damage your truck would do very very well out here Greg. Clearance is king with as many rollers and diff grabbers as we have
That front end looks stellar. Every thing appears that it will fit or come very close to fitting, doesn't look like anything major will need to moved around.
Like Jess said that has really gotta be a good feeling knowing that everything is basically in its final position. Hell it makes me excited
Stomis
Professional Amateur
Awesome fab. Always love catching up reading this build.
One question though and maybe its from not reading every single post top to bottom but your panhard is going out to your steering knuckle? What the hell is going on there?
Also how close is your draglink to panhard length going to be?
One question though and maybe its from not reading every single post top to bottom but your panhard is going out to your steering knuckle? What the hell is going on there?
Also how close is your draglink to panhard length going to be?
I wish I had the balls, and financialwearwithall, to build what you do... but that pushes my $1000, 200 hr's hood setup, to the point of "Ryoken cranial implode" 
but props for the actual, ":cut the piece, even if it's scrap in the end" and "I just wasted 4 hr's on a bracket that sucks!" pile....
my respect to you..... 
your motivating my K5 build, sir....... thanks....
but props for the actual, ":cut the piece, even if it's scrap in the end" and "I just wasted 4 hr's on a bracket that sucks!" pile....
my respect to you.....
your motivating my K5 build, sir....... thanks....
Look closely. It is mounted to the end of the axle at the portal mount. The one picture is deceiving.
The PHB is going to be as long as I can make it. It's really far out toward the knuckle (bolts to a bracket mounted to the "inner C") but obviously not connected to it. For reference, the tie rod is 47-3/8" total (hole center to hole center) so you can get an idea of the lengths of other items by comparing them visually.
I wish I had the balls, and financialwearwithall, to build what you do... but that pushes my $1000, 200 hr's hood setup, to the point of "Ryoken cranial implode"
but props for the actual, ":cut the piece, even if it's scrap in the end" and "I just wasted 4 hr's on a bracket that sucks!" pile....
my respect to you.....
your motivating my K5 build, sir....... thanks....
Paul, I will make my confession now. For a long time now I have held out hope that when the time comes in my build for the final bodywork, you would guide me through it "Chief Brody style" so that I could get the whole thing dead straight and ready for color..... THEN...... We would work out an awesome strategy where I would take several days off from work and haul the tub down to NJ and into the Ryoken Lab. We'd crank up some Sabbath, L7, etc and totally kill it for a couple of days... I buy the food, the Wild Turkey, and all the materials (of course) and when all the Hugger Orange paint mist finally settles, the truck shell emerges from the lab in all of its gleaming glory.....(this is when the Dio music queues up in my head) ready for it's trip back to NH for final assembly!
I know you are always hugely busy with work (and your own projects) but in my mind the thought of working side-by-side with you for a couple of days would be epic and the stuff of internet legend.
An experience like that is what I live for... maybe there is a way to work that out someday.
-G
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thought of working side-by-side with you for a couple of days would be epic and the stuff of internet legend.
Yes please!
eh, you'd be better off with something in the way of a local booth or shop... not that I haven't done some Lab deals with no dust, but it's certainly no guarantee...
in a downdraft booth with a guy who squirt's daily is what your rig deserves, not in effectively, a 1 car garage in Joysey......
I just try to inspire you guys some...
in a downdraft booth with a guy who squirt's daily is what your rig deserves, not in effectively, a 1 car garage in Joysey......
I just try to inspire you guys some...
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I just painted a semi outside in a dirt field. I miss a good down draft booth.
been 20 yr's for me... I just painted a 36' Sundancer hull in black Awlgrip in a dirt marina yard..... 
heck, Mutt's roof is getting done outside.... just sayin..
a rig this badarse deserves better accommodations than I can provide...
heck, Mutt's roof is getting done outside.... just sayin..
a rig this badarse deserves better accommodations than I can provide...
2013.07.15 - UPDATE! - MORE CYCLING THAN THE TOUR DE FRANCE...
It took over 8 hours yesterday to travel 6"....
The slow tedious process of cycling the suspension started at 9AM, and at midnight the axle was still shy of completing a full 6" of bump travel (both sides simultaneously). This was mostly a result of the axle moving back almost 3" in previous weeks when the fender alignment issue was discovered. Suddenly, there was a lot more stuff in the way.
Here is a shot of how the day began. The drivers side is at full droop (8" down from ride height), and the passenger side is at 6" of bump travel. This represents the maximum articulation possible with this suspension setup:
The idea was to hold the dimension on the fully-stuffed side and then raise the axle in 1" increments on the drivers side....each time checking for interferences, and fully steering (hard left to hard right) to make sure that all of the linkages clear all the obstacles.
All of the small (and not-so-small) interferences will be fully enumerated in a second post later this morning,, when I have time to fully upload all the photos. Photobucket uploads from a tablet is infuriating.
-G
It took over 8 hours yesterday to travel 6"....
The slow tedious process of cycling the suspension started at 9AM, and at midnight the axle was still shy of completing a full 6" of bump travel (both sides simultaneously). This was mostly a result of the axle moving back almost 3" in previous weeks when the fender alignment issue was discovered. Suddenly, there was a lot more stuff in the way.
Here is a shot of how the day began. The drivers side is at full droop (8" down from ride height), and the passenger side is at 6" of bump travel. This represents the maximum articulation possible with this suspension setup:
The idea was to hold the dimension on the fully-stuffed side and then raise the axle in 1" increments on the drivers side....each time checking for interferences, and fully steering (hard left to hard right) to make sure that all of the linkages clear all the obstacles.
All of the small (and not-so-small) interferences will be fully enumerated in a second post later this morning,, when I have time to fully upload all the photos. Photobucket uploads from a tablet is infuriating.
-G
OK....... Here we go.
It has been a humbling and painstaking process to get even part of the way through a full "suspension cycling". As I mentioned previously, it took more than 8 hours just to cycle the suspension on one side yesterday. And the suspension still needs to be run through the same process again with the opposite "one-wheel up, one-wheel down" configuration starting with the drivers side at full bump.
Anyway, here is a pretty thorough look at the "learning" that happened yesterday.
The reference point being used for all suspension measurements is the lower link bolt on the axle. At static ride height, that number is 23" exactly. Since the plan is to run a 14" travel strut, the maximum bump travel will put that bolt at 29" (6" of bump travel) and at a low value of 15" (8" of droop).
To begin, the plan was to start with the passenger side at 29" and the drivers side at 15"....then bring the suspension up 1" at a time, turn the wheels hard-left and hard-right at each interval and see if everything clears correctly. As it turned out, it wasn't even possible to set the axle at these values due to an immediate problem with the upper link mount. As soon as the drivers side starting dropping, the clearance around the upper heim disappeared and the suspension was in collision-mode almost instantly.
Here's the issue:
The red dashed line indicates the direction of travel for the panhard bar (from now on referred to only as PHB) as the driver's side starts to drop. The original upper link mount was set up pretty aggressively FORWARD of the axle centerline, but was now completely in the way of that PHB as things started to articulate. The immediate "quick and dirty" solution was to remove the two brackets and slide them back approximately 1.5" so that the PHB would allow the suspension to droop fully on the drivers side.
With that first issue out of the way, the suspension was set at 15" (PS) and 29" (PS). The steering was checked and everything cleared without issue....
The following notation shows how things went from there: (Remember, the target is to get to 29" DS & 29" PS at the same time, indicating a "full stuff" of the suspension on both sides)
15" DS & 29" PS -> OK ("OK" indicates no rubbing and full steering both directions)
16" DS & 29" PS -> OK
17" DS & 29" PS -> OK
18" DS & 29" PS -> OK
19" DS & 29" PS...... Upper Link bracket hits the engine boss on PS of block.
Clearly, not going to work. Some flapwheel and Roloc love brought that area down and it was nice to see that there was no coolant passenges or other critical things going on inside that boss area.
19" DS & 29" PS -> Now fixed..OK
20" DS & 29" PS -> OK
21" DS & 29" PS -> OK
22" DS & 29" PS -> OK
23" DS & 29" PS -> OK
(Note: At this point, the drivers side is only at "ride height")
24" DS & 29" PS -> OK
25" DS & 29" PS -> Substantial issues.....
On a hard right turn, the steering arm (which is moving upward in the vertical axis) is just about to collide with the under side of the frame-side PHB heim as shown here....
The problem wasn't going to get any better, especially since the axle was still 4" from full-bump on the driver's side. Unfortunately the only way to solve this was to rebuild the PHB mount approximately 3-1/2" closer to the frame so that the steering arm would be able to travel past it. At this moment, the draglink was 39.5" long and it seemed a shame to lose so much length out of the bar. Fortunately, there was still a bit of available space on the axle-side (PS) mount and it was possible to squeeze the mount over another 1" there, and also drop it down by 1/2" (this helped open up clearance under the oilpan). Here's the axle PHB bracket showing the before and after positioning at the same time... the plate in the foreground is the new location, the background plate is the old location.
So....the end result was that the PHB did get shorter, but only by 2.5". The new PHB overall length is now at 37" which is still pretty respectable.
25" DS & 29" PS -> OK (new PHB location and sizes resolved all issues)
26" DS & 29" PS -> New issue....
Despite the previous clearancing of the engine block boss, the upper link bracket continued to have issues there. After a period of time and study, it became clear that the amount of "meat" that was built into the bracket around the heim was probably excessive and a more modest bracket could be fashioned for the side that faces the engine block.... some quality time with the plasma cutter and paper templates created this:
You have to look carefully, but you can see that the overall height of the inner bracket is now 1/2" shorter than the one on the outer (frame) side. This provides substantially better clearance while still having plenty of beef to do it's job.
As a side effect of that process... "Greg's OCD beautiful bracket graveyard" got a new member! Here are a few examples of brackets there were built "too pretty" but ended up discarded when they didn't actually work on the truck.
During this same re-work step, there was also some additional boss clearancing done, and the bolt for the upper link was flipped so that the bolt head was facing the engine (for better clearance)
This is also when a few other small clearance issues started popping up. The upper corner of the 3rd member hit the underside of the frame (even with those crazy framerail mods that were done a few weeks ago!) and needed a small notch to fit properly. Also, the motor mount on the PS needed clearance for the heim jam nut...
Finally.......
26" DS & 29" PS -> OK (with new inner bracket there are no issues)
27" DS & 29" PS -> OK
28" DS & 29" PS -> Issue..... under hard left turns, the steering arm hits the frame-side PHB heim. (This is the kind of weird stuff that you only see when turning the wheels. Normally there is plenty of clearance around these items)
Fortunately, the PHB bracket still has multiple mounting holes, so the fix was as simple as raising the PHB heim by 1"
28" DS & 29" PS -> OK (with PHB heim mount raised by 1")
29" DS & 29" PS -> Issues....
This is about where I ran out of steam last night around midnight. There are a few lingering issues at this final "FULLY STUFFED" position:
Here are a few parting shots of the axle sitting at 29" on both sides:
And another showing just how much "stuff" needs to fit into a relatively small area... The idler arm, draglink, PHB, steering arm, tie rod and axle tube are all competing for clearance at full-bump.
...and a final shot across to the PS from with the steering fully maxed (hard right) you can see on the far side how the draglink and tierod are crossing-over each other and are touching (rubbing, actually). Since these mock-up pieces are all 1.75" DOM, and the final parts will likely be 1.5" diameter this will probably work itself out.
So that's it! 6 inches of travel (I guess technically it's 14!) over the course of one VERY long day......
-G
It has been a humbling and painstaking process to get even part of the way through a full "suspension cycling". As I mentioned previously, it took more than 8 hours just to cycle the suspension on one side yesterday. And the suspension still needs to be run through the same process again with the opposite "one-wheel up, one-wheel down" configuration starting with the drivers side at full bump.
Anyway, here is a pretty thorough look at the "learning" that happened yesterday.
The reference point being used for all suspension measurements is the lower link bolt on the axle. At static ride height, that number is 23" exactly. Since the plan is to run a 14" travel strut, the maximum bump travel will put that bolt at 29" (6" of bump travel) and at a low value of 15" (8" of droop).
To begin, the plan was to start with the passenger side at 29" and the drivers side at 15"....then bring the suspension up 1" at a time, turn the wheels hard-left and hard-right at each interval and see if everything clears correctly. As it turned out, it wasn't even possible to set the axle at these values due to an immediate problem with the upper link mount. As soon as the drivers side starting dropping, the clearance around the upper heim disappeared and the suspension was in collision-mode almost instantly.
Here's the issue:
The red dashed line indicates the direction of travel for the panhard bar (from now on referred to only as PHB) as the driver's side starts to drop. The original upper link mount was set up pretty aggressively FORWARD of the axle centerline, but was now completely in the way of that PHB as things started to articulate. The immediate "quick and dirty" solution was to remove the two brackets and slide them back approximately 1.5" so that the PHB would allow the suspension to droop fully on the drivers side.
With that first issue out of the way, the suspension was set at 15" (PS) and 29" (PS). The steering was checked and everything cleared without issue....
The following notation shows how things went from there: (Remember, the target is to get to 29" DS & 29" PS at the same time, indicating a "full stuff" of the suspension on both sides)
15" DS & 29" PS -> OK ("OK" indicates no rubbing and full steering both directions)
16" DS & 29" PS -> OK
17" DS & 29" PS -> OK
18" DS & 29" PS -> OK
19" DS & 29" PS...... Upper Link bracket hits the engine boss on PS of block.
Clearly, not going to work. Some flapwheel and Roloc love brought that area down and it was nice to see that there was no coolant passenges or other critical things going on inside that boss area.
19" DS & 29" PS -> Now fixed..OK
20" DS & 29" PS -> OK
21" DS & 29" PS -> OK
22" DS & 29" PS -> OK
23" DS & 29" PS -> OK
(Note: At this point, the drivers side is only at "ride height")
24" DS & 29" PS -> OK
25" DS & 29" PS -> Substantial issues.....
On a hard right turn, the steering arm (which is moving upward in the vertical axis) is just about to collide with the under side of the frame-side PHB heim as shown here....
The problem wasn't going to get any better, especially since the axle was still 4" from full-bump on the driver's side. Unfortunately the only way to solve this was to rebuild the PHB mount approximately 3-1/2" closer to the frame so that the steering arm would be able to travel past it. At this moment, the draglink was 39.5" long and it seemed a shame to lose so much length out of the bar. Fortunately, there was still a bit of available space on the axle-side (PS) mount and it was possible to squeeze the mount over another 1" there, and also drop it down by 1/2" (this helped open up clearance under the oilpan). Here's the axle PHB bracket showing the before and after positioning at the same time... the plate in the foreground is the new location, the background plate is the old location.
So....the end result was that the PHB did get shorter, but only by 2.5". The new PHB overall length is now at 37" which is still pretty respectable.
25" DS & 29" PS -> OK (new PHB location and sizes resolved all issues)
26" DS & 29" PS -> New issue....
Despite the previous clearancing of the engine block boss, the upper link bracket continued to have issues there. After a period of time and study, it became clear that the amount of "meat" that was built into the bracket around the heim was probably excessive and a more modest bracket could be fashioned for the side that faces the engine block.... some quality time with the plasma cutter and paper templates created this:
You have to look carefully, but you can see that the overall height of the inner bracket is now 1/2" shorter than the one on the outer (frame) side. This provides substantially better clearance while still having plenty of beef to do it's job.
As a side effect of that process... "Greg's OCD beautiful bracket graveyard" got a new member!
Here are a few examples of brackets there were built "too pretty" but ended up discarded when they didn't actually work on the truck.
During this same re-work step, there was also some additional boss clearancing done, and the bolt for the upper link was flipped so that the bolt head was facing the engine (for better clearance)
This is also when a few other small clearance issues started popping up. The upper corner of the 3rd member hit the underside of the frame (even with those crazy framerail mods that were done a few weeks ago!) and needed a small notch to fit properly. Also, the motor mount on the PS needed clearance for the heim jam nut...
Finally.......
26" DS & 29" PS -> OK (with new inner bracket there are no issues)
27" DS & 29" PS -> OK
28" DS & 29" PS -> Issue..... under hard left turns, the steering arm hits the frame-side PHB heim. (This is the kind of weird stuff that you only see when turning the wheels. Normally there is plenty of clearance around these items)
Fortunately, the PHB bracket still has multiple mounting holes, so the fix was as simple as raising the PHB heim by 1"
28" DS & 29" PS -> OK (with PHB heim mount raised by 1")
29" DS & 29" PS -> Issues....
This is about where I ran out of steam last night around midnight. There are a few lingering issues at this final "FULLY STUFFED" position:
- The pumpkin hits the corner of the oilpan. This can probably be dimpled to work OK.
- The frame side PHB heim hits the tie rod (again). Might be able to raise the PHB on the frame side. or drop the PS mount slightly??
- The inner framerail on the PS needs to be clearanced to allow the upper link bolt/nut to clear
- The draglink / tie rod are rubbing against each other at full lock steering.
Here are a few parting shots of the axle sitting at 29" on both sides:
And another showing just how much "stuff" needs to fit into a relatively small area... The idler arm, draglink, PHB, steering arm, tie rod and axle tube are all competing for clearance at full-bump.
...and a final shot across to the PS from with the steering fully maxed (hard right) you can see on the far side how the draglink and tierod are crossing-over each other and are touching (rubbing, actually). Since these mock-up pieces are all 1.75" DOM, and the final parts will likely be 1.5" diameter this will probably work itself out.
So that's it! 6 inches of travel (I guess technically it's 14!) over the course of one VERY long day......
-G
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TheBeast_88K5
Banned
That's patience that I just don't have....
Absolutely Crazy stuff, Greg. As I told you last night, you're making my bumper build look like a elementary school build.
Keep at it Brother, this truly is amazing work that you're doing.
Oh, and by your numbers that you just posted, it does look like I ended up with page 70 of the Oracle last night.... Not the impostor Oracle that you normally show off.
To Ebay I go...
Mike's going to buy some new seats when he cashes in on the profits.
As I told you last night, you're making my bumper build look like a elementary school build. Keep at it Brother, this truly is amazing work that you're doing.
Oh, and by your numbers that you just posted, it does look like I ended up with page 70 of the Oracle last night.... Not the impostor Oracle that you normally show off.
To Ebay I go...
Mike's going to buy some new seats when he cashes in on the profits.
That's patience that I just don't have....
You are too kind. Thank you.
Absolutely Crazy stuff, Greg.
Keep at it Brother, this truly is amazing work that you're doing.
If anything, this update should serve as validation that just about anything is possible if you dedicate yourself to it. The old expression that success is 5% inspiration and 95% perspiration is absolutely true... there are nights when I just fight and fight for each little improvement and bit of forward progress, but that really seems to be what it is required to actually "realize" the inspiration that's in your head. I think your bumper/winch project will be the same way for you. If you keep logging the hours and pushing yourself eventually you will create what is already in your mind's eye..... and once you see it actually rendered in metal and bolted to your truck, THAT is a very cool feeling.
P.S. Those "7-day car restoration shows" on TV are bull$hit.
-G
