'72 K5 - Greg's @MightAsWellK5 Build

[Greg72]

Brian,

I think I understand the point you are trying to make....

The "ideal" relationship of the three holes in the idler itself is still a mystery to me.

Here's a recent shot of the idler with the steering centered and the front wheels pointing straight ahead:

At first I wanted to put all three holes in a perfect vertical alignment. Due to the length of the idler, I realized that the pivot would need to be REALLY high up on the frame, and that would cause it to slam into the frame every time I tried to turn hard right.

My next idea was to make the bracket as more of a dogleg shape so that I would have better clearance and the idler could pass underneath the frame on those hard right turns. I've seen photos of trucks using idler steering where they build brackets this way, and it seems to have worked. The only difference is that the lower 2 holes on their designs seem to be in perfect vertical alignment with each other. Mine are not. The uppermost and lowermost holes are aligned vertically, but the center hole is offset by maybe 1 - 1.5" due to the dogleg in the bracket.

Ultimately, now that I have discovered that my whole strategy to build all my steering linkages using either 5.5" or 8.75" dimensions is faulty logic.... there really isn't any reason to keep using such an enormously long idler, and no reason to hang the uppermost pivot so high up on the DS framerail. It just keeps creating clearance issues on those RH turns anyway....

Maybe I should take a fresh look at a complete new redesign of the idler, hole spacing and mounting location on the framerail. There might be a simpler and cleaner way to still get full lock-to-lock steering on both sides than the way I'm currently doing it.


-G

 

[bp71k5]

Yep, that was the idea I was trying to get across, but I'm not sure either whether that's really the issue.

 

[Greg72]

Thunderbolt and lightning.......very very frighten-ing.

We've been feeling the remnants of the tropical storm Andrew over the last few days. No damage, just a bunch of wind, humidity and rain as well as hot temps. Not really conducive to spending time sweating it out in the shop.

However, last night I went out to tinker around a bit and made seem progress on my idler setup.

The main objective was to push the middle bolt hole down a bit. This allows me to increase the length of the pitman arm to something closer to the stock 5.5" value. I also wanted to align the lower two bolt holes vertically so I templated-up a new layout and then cut a couple plates out of 1/4"

The upper hole was drilled out to 2" so that I can install that large Timken bearing set for my pivot.

Installed the plates temporarily to get a pic.

Astute viewers will notice that the two lower holes are now so close together that the heims can't be installed one on top of the other.... The heim bodies would hit each other. So the plan is to install the small idler heim outside the pictured bracket (toward the front bumper) then add a 3rd plate to the pivot to keep them both in double-shear. I'll throw a couple thick-walled spacers into the mix as well for extra strength.

Aluminum links are now in production.... So in about a week they should be at my doorstep. In the meantime, I'll keep working on small items to keep busy.

-G

 

[supersize75k5]

Any progress is good progress

 

[Greg72]

Here's one more....

I didn't want to move the welded brackets yet, but I was experimenting with moving the draglink slightly back. Not sure about clearance issues with that idea. I'll need to cycle everything again later on

-G

 

[Greg72]

Wednesday night progress.....

Made up a 3rd idler plate so I could get both heims in double-shear....

I tried both combinations, but ultimately saw that the draglink heim works better in the rearmost position, and the intermediate idler link (short section) gets more of a straight shot at the pitman arm when it's in the forward mount position. (NOTE: in this photo the black heim is part of the idler link, but the rest of it was removed for the mockup work)

I'm trying to push the entire idler as far back as I can without causing collisions with the tierod or PHB bracketry.... And the more I look at it, the more I'm tempted to build a single, integrated mount that bolts both the PHB and idler brackets to the frame. They are SO close to each other that it make a lot of sense and that should allow me to brace them more strongly with larger plates and gussets.


Slow.......and........steady.......progress, and Shawn is right. Every little bit moves the project forward.


-G

 

[Chevy305]

Serious beef right there!

 

[folkenheath]

Hi Greg, it's been a long time.

Everything is looking good, I like you combination tranny mount, skid plate, front and rear link mount. You should make a second go round with some smaller speed holes though, you can fit more in, seriously. (I'm actually not joking)

The suspension is looking great, I like the shocks and glad you braced those front upper shock mounts more. Might be hard to get a master cylinder in there but you'll figure something out. You could use an electric or hydro brake booster to help save room.

As for the steering. This may not be something you want to hear at this point, but have you considered not using an idler arm at all? If you notice you are moving the bolt holes closer and closer to the point where pretty soon you won't need an idler. I know it changes which side your panhard bar mounts, but it also adds extra joints to wear out, extra weight, extra stuff to collide, etc. You should be able to get the ratio right by just changing the length of the pitman and steering arms. And as long as the panhard is close to the same length and angle as the draglink you are good to go on bumpsteer.

Just a suggestion, I know you have a lot of time into this, but you also now realize how hard it is to get everything to clear, especially when you articulate it and turn the steering at the same time.

Overall the quality of your work and attention to detail is stellar as always.

 

[Greg72]

Heath,

Welcome back Brother!

What's the reason for more speed holes?....lighter weight? Better drainage?.....or truly just more speed? . I've got to pull the monolith out at least once more anyway so it could certainly be "lightened" a bit more.

I'm in pretty good shape on the steering system at this point. I've got full lock-to-lock steering in both directions with no serious interferences. I ordered up the links so that I can put even MORE of the final parts in place and cycle it again. Obviously, I'm pretty committed to the design at this point... Especially after dropping so much coin on the link material.

The motivation for the idler setup was mostly to maximize the length of the draglink. I had already worked pretty hard to get the PHB as long as possible (42" final length) and with my OCD I just had to get the draglink EXACTLY the same length.... Which it actually is with the current implementation. Obviously, without the idler, I lose several inches off the draglink length (if I keep the inside-the-framerail steering box).... I could move the steering box back to the outside of the framerails to get a longer draglink, but then I'm going to probably be fighting tire interference issues on hard left turns like a lot of guys do. The idler gives me good adjustability for the overall draglink angle too. My PHB ended up being something like 2.8* slope....and the idler hanger is tack welded to give me that same angle on the draglink too.

Steering arms are pretty much a "locked down" dimension at this point (8.75"). I've built the steering arms three times, and as complex as they have become....that's as many revisions as I can endure. . Fortunately, it seems like I can do the last bit of "fine tuning" for steering using only the pitman arm length..... The Wednesday night idler changes allow me to be in the 5.0" - 5.5" range for the pitman arm hole spacing which is pretty close to what that Saginaw box had with its stock arm.

The "cereal box crowd" is starting to get really impatient these days, so I really can't keep them waiting much longer on some outdoor beauty shots!



-G

 

[folkenheath]

Yes, just thought it looks really heavy so more lightening holes would help and it would probably still be plenty stout. You could even put a couple small ones under the rod ends in mount plate.

The only thing with using an idler to make the panhard exactly the same length is, now your draglink swings in a perpendicular arc on both ends, so although it is the same length, it is not parallel anymore though it's motion, doesn't that bother you?

On a more serious note, using a panhard that's even close to parallel and equal length is already lightyears ahead of the std crossover with leaf springs. As in that scenario the axle travels vertical and the steering is on an arc. So the handling and bump steer are already greatly reduced with a panhard setup. I think mine is over 4" shorter and I can't notice any bumpsteer.

Although I am sure your steering will work good once it's complete, and you always build stuff with such detail that I know it will work good, it just seems like you spent a LOT of time and money for something that you may not even notice. But I don't want to come off as rude, because what you did looks awesome and you always do good work, so please don't take any offense to my suggestions. Keep it up!

 

[Greg72]

Although I am sure your steering will work good once it's complete, and you always build stuff with such detail that I know it will work good, it just seems like you spent a LOT of time and money for something that you may not even notice. But I don't want to come off as rude, because what you did looks awesome and you always do good work, so please don't take any offense to my suggestions. Keep it up!

Heath,

No offense taken.

Your comment highlights an interesting point about this build though..... As I've been going through this VERY long learning process I read everything I can find about suspension theory, and have tried to incorporate all that expertise and advice into my final design. In many cases I suspect, people are giving me advice based on a "perfect world" scenario.....never expecting that someone would actually try so hard to hit those ideal values.

A real expert knows where compromises can be made, and how much a number can be "fudged" and not actually have an adverse effect on the design. Unfortunately, I don't have that kind of expertise.

I find myself making endless revisions to get perfect values, because I don't really know where the easier "good enough" number is. It burns a lot of hours, but at this point I feel like I'm really close to getting everything as perfect as I know how..... The good news is that when this suspension is actually rolling down the road (or trail) the handling and wheel travel should be awesome. As you said, it should be light years ahead of my old leafs & crossover steering setup so it will be highly satisfying.


-G

 

[folkenheath]

Heath,

..when this suspension is actually rolling down the road (or trail) the handling and wheel travel should be awesome. As you said, it should be light years ahead of my old leafs & crossover steering setup so it will be highly satisfying.


-G

You are really going to like it. The first time I pulled out of the driveway with mine with the new suspension I immediately noticed a huge difference in how tight the steering was. Then when you get it offroad it's a night and day difference. I was used to the rough ride of the leaves and one day I was cruising down the road toward one of this huge asphault speed bumps and I started slowing down like I always do and then I realized I didn't have to, so I said, f it, and I sped back up and flew over teh speed bump and let my suspension do the work! And I don't even have good quality shocks on it yet with spring floaters that hang up on the body.

 

[Greg72]

Sunday night progress.....

I only had a few hours available last night but still managed to move the project forward a bit more.....

Cut down a thick-walled spacer and dropped it into position. As you can see the upper pivot area needed still needed some love....

When I decided to go to the side-by-side heim idler design, the upper bearing retainer I had been working on became worthless, so I cut a new 5-3/8" long section of 2" DOM and spent over an hour with the sanding rolls opening up the ID so that the bearing races would drop into it. Once that was complete, I was able to get rid of all the sloppy, temporary hanger stuff and move the upper brackets around a bit.

Unfortunately, I will still need to clearance the frame slightly to get my right hand steering all the way to the steering stops. Not a big deal, but it was well past midnight so I decided to save that for tonight.

Here's a shot of the idler against the stops the opposite way (hard left)

I think there is room to push the mounting brackets back towards the PHB maybe another 1/2"..... I'll take a closer look at that again as well.


-G

 

[Greg72]

2014.07.16 - UPDATE! - THE BUILD GODS WERE ANGRY...

There are times, on rare occasion where the build gods don't want you anywhere near a workshop....they will send you a subtle message but it you ignore it, you should expect to pay the price.

Last night the build gods slapped me down.


To set the scene: imagine a hot, and humid day.... Even as the sun set the heat and moisture did not dissipate. The shop floor was damp from the residual moisture in the air, and the overall atmosphere created a feeling of lethargy and slowness.....and kept motivation to a minimum.

Even so, I decided to forge ahead and at least accomplish a few small things in the shop. That's when the rain started.... Thunder crashed....lightning flashed.....the shop lights flickered ...and the rain came down hard. So hard in fact that it started creeping under the garage doors and creating puddles everywhere.

This was a problem. I don't really dig the idea of standing in puddles of water while I'm plugging in 220v cords into the wall... Or while I'm pouring lots of amps through my MIG welder. I chose to continue on my way with the hopes that the rain would stop eventually, and I'd be able to sweep the water back outside.

In the meantime, I started looking for a small sheet of 3/16" plate in my upright stacks of metal. They are leaning up against the right-hand wall of my shop near my shelving. As I rifled through the pieces of oddly-cut metal, a couple of tall pieces fell over.......hitting a couple of aerosol cans on the shelf above them. The cans wobbled.... I reached quickly to stabilize them, but one of them fell off the shelf......

....and in a one-in-a-billion type event, it impaled itself briefly on one of those oddly cut metal sheets below. Faster than you can say "oh shart!" The can began violently expelling it's contents directly into my face.

WeldKleen hurts when it's spraying directly into your eyes.

After a brief stint in the kitchen sink rinsing the toxic crap out of my face and eyes, I went back to the shop. By this time, the puddles on the floor had grown significantly, and now many of the 220v cords that I intended to use were water soaked. I moved them to a drier spot but at that moment I had an epiphany.

"The build gods don't want me here tonight"




So instead of electrocuting myself by pushing my luck, I went inside and poured a tall glass of scotch.

I hope the gods were pleased with my offering..... I'd really like to get something more substantial done tonight.




-G

 

[pblaze725]

Sounds like you need a garage Tiki. Just shake it and spin around to ward off bad mojo.
60% of the time it works all the time.

 

[folkenheath]

probably a wise decision...

 

[Greg Ducato]

You were still working on the build with that drink, you were just working on the mental aspects instead of the physical, equal partners in any advanced endeavor.

 

[Greg72]

You were still working on the build with that drink, you were just working on the mental aspects instead of the physical, equal partners in any advanced endeavor.

Actually, you are right about that!

I was exchanging emails with EMF (Formally Evolution Machine) last night trying to get one of their uber TRE's shipped out for the build...

Watched a few episodes of "Street Outlaws" as I settled into my buzz and enjoyed watching someone ELSE work on their junk for a while.

Good therapy.


Weather forecast for the next few days: Mid-70s, no rain.....

Inbound parts from both ORD and Branik will be arriving at the very end of this week (with just a little luck) and I'll be able to post up some beauty shots of the swag over the weekend!!!


-G

 

[ashman]

Yo Greg,
I've been looking around for run stand info and I came across the beginnings of you building one. (post 1121 in this thread)
Did you ever get around to finishing it, or did you scrap the idea?

 

[Greg72]

Ash,

The stand is still around....getting in my way, tripping me up.

I made the engine mounts removable, so it basically becomes a burly, low-slung furniture dolly with massive strong casters. I've used it for a couple of unrelated projects and it's been nice to have. When/if you build one for yourself I'd recommend that you make the motor mounts removable as well so that it can serve other functions later on.

The front suspension needs to be finished up, then I can start looking at building a set of outboard headers to fit the remaining space.... and drop some serious coin on the EFI system. Finally, after all of that I should be able to pull the engine/trans out and put them back on the run-stand for setup and engine break-in..... that will be a HUGE adrenaline moment in the build, and I'm sure the video clip of that will put a smile on a lot of subscriber's faces....


-G