Back to life...

[The Butcher]

The Butcher submitted a new Build:

Back to life...

Ultimately this thread may need to be moved to the Driveway section, but since I have so many questions right now I thought I would put it here for some help on technical matters.

First the story, then the questions...

The Story:
About 10 years ago I found a 1990 K5 that was in great condition for sale by a guy here locally. 185,000 miles on it, but supposedly a new engine within the last 40-50K. It had gotten a new paint job (in blue, my favorite color for K5s, but not an award winning paint job in terms of quality), and the PO had installed a body lift (not my favorite choice for a lift, but for my budget at the time it allowed me to buy wheels and tires instead of spending money on a lift). I promptly threw on a set of 33x14.50 Boggers and put a thumping stereo in. Life was good...

I drove my new to me K5 for a couple of years as a second vehicle with only minor issues (new A/C was needed, some electrical gremlins, etc.), and then I started to have an overheating problem. 99% of the driving this truck sees is surface streets going to and from the gym, or cruising around on the weekend. Texas heat in the Summer and stop and go traffic was starting to be too much for the 18 year old cooling system. Compounding the problem was the body lift that spaced the fan shroud out and screwed up the flow of air. I decided an electric fan set up would be my solution, so I dropped my K5 off at my buddy's/mechanic shop. He promptly tore out the radiator, and then got busy with other projects while my K5 got pushed off to the side. That was about 5 or 6 years ago...

Now, in the past 5-6 years I've prodded my buddy many times to get my Blazer running again. I even went so far as to buy the suspension lift, ORD parts needed for my D60/14FF swap, dropped off the axles to him, etc. several years ago, and yet there it sat still. I was pretty busy with other things during that time, and to my buddy's credit he did do a full body off major rebuild of my Excursion that took a couple months to do sometime during all this time, but about a year ago I finally hooked up my Blazer and towed it from his shop to my shop (work) where I thought I would finally get it running again. Then it sat again for another year...

I tell all this back story since so many us of have projects that have languished in our garages, yards, carports, etc. for years without being completed, so I know I have some sympathetic ears when I recount the journey that has gotten me here. The...

Read more about this build here...

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[The Butcher]

Well, I ended up with a little more time this morning than I thought, so I'll shoot a few of the quick questions out that come to mind:

1. For my electric fan I have a dual unit that fits 07-09 Chevy Silverado. Is see each motor has two prongs for the connections, but no idea which is positive and which is negative. What kind of connector plugs into this?
2. Which of these two fans would you consider the primary fan versus the secondary fan? I assume the one with more blades should maybe be the one I wire up as the first one to come on, and then the one with the fewer blades would be the second one when temp goes up an additional 10 degrees?
3. I'm getting a new Mishimoto aluminum radiator. Any reason to build a shroud for this electric fan to pull it off the radiator a little bit (like 1" or so)? I'm thinking that might help the air flow a bit, or is my thinking faulty on that? the shroud would go all the way around the fan, but space it off the radiator a bit. I know with some fans not having space behind the fan lessens the airflow, so that was my thinking on this.
4. I've been looking at both the Jegs dual fan wiring harness (52126) or pair the Derale dual fan relay (16765) with the Derale 16788 High Amperage dual fan controller. Seem to be mixed reviews on the Derale stuff, but not sure I love the non-weather proof housing on the Jegs unit since that means I have to bring it into the cab. Any thoughts on which set up might be better/easier to wire up?

***Update: I found some connectors on Parts Geek that work for these fans. AC Delco Part number PT2649 (I believe it is GM part number 13580874). Pics of the connector are on the next page of this thread.

 

[The Butcher]

Here are my axles blasted and painted. Need to do a perch swap and disc conversion on the 14FF. Yes, I should have done that before blast and paint, but again, my guys were looking for something to do. Since I'm only going with a 2.5" lift right now, I was thinking I could just put the new perches on at the same pinion angle as they currently sit. However, I may go to a 6" lift if this ends up not fitting in my garage anyway with only the 2.5" lift. Any suggestions on pinion angle given those possibilities?

What's the center to center measurement on the spring perches supposed to be for the 14FF swap? I plan on just measuring my 10bolt and seeing what those are, but if someone can chime in for extra reassurance it would be appreciated!

I have new rotors for front and rear, but not sure which is for the 14FF and which is for the D60. Looks like the mounting surface is different depth. Anyone know which is which? Going to use Caddy calipers for the disc swap so that I have my parking brake still. Using ORD parts for much of this build. They are very helpful on the phone!!!

 

[The Butcher]

CK5 decorations for the front and rear hitch covers!

 

[The Butcher]

Front grille was looking really faded, so my guys shot it black in some areas. Air cleaner looked really bad too, so that got some black paint as well.

Any suggestions on peeling chrome on the grille? Is there a fix for that, or just have to buy a new one?

 

[The Butcher]

I had these wheels on two previous suburbans (1999 and a 2003), and now they will temporarily go on my K5. They were in pretty bad shape having sat outside for years at my buddy's shop, but some wet sanding and polishing cleaned them up like new!!!! The odd ball Baja style wheel will be my spare when I figure out how I'm going to fab up a rear tire carrier.

I'm going to run these for awhile to see if it will fit in my garage with the 2.5" lift and 35" tires. If not, I'll eventually go up to 6" of lift and 37s or 38s.

 

[The Butcher]

I got to work this morning and one of my guys had already pulled the shafts on the 14 Bolt to get started on the disc swap. Looks like the splines on the shafts are in decent shape (haven't inspected them thoroughly though), but the shafts themselves are pretty rusted. Is there any point in cleaning those up (maybe a light blast, or just sand them down) and throwing a coat of paint on them? I'd obviously tape off the splines to protect them, but should I even bother cleaning up those shafts and painting them?

Looks like I need to run to the auto parts store and get the 6 prong socket to remove the spindle nut. Hopefully they have that at Autozone!

 

[6872xtc]

Cool that you are going to town on this!

I would blast the rust off so that it can't get into the bearings. But I wouldn't paint them, if it came off, it would cause problems. Just my thoughts.

I don't think that you can save the chrome on the grill. And I bet that if you tried to strip it, the base plastic will not handle it well and look rough after.

I like those wheels!

 

[The Butcher]

Cool that you are going to town on this!

I would blast the rust off so that it can't get into the bearings. But I wouldn't paint them, if it came off, it would cause problems. Just my thoughts.

I don't think that you can save the chrome on the grill. And I bet that if you tried to strip it, the base plastic will not handle it well and look rough after.

I like those wheels!

Thanks! I'm leaning towards blasting the shafts and then leave them unpainted for the same reason you mentioned. Kind of concerned if the paint did come off that it would cause problems.

I think I'll just put that grille back on and run with it for awhile. If it ends up being an eye sore I can deal with it later. I think you are right that trying to fix it will likely make it worse.

 

[az_762_nato]

Nice, congrats on getting back to it!

 

[dyeager535]

OEM strategy is generally to cover the entire radiator with fan/shroud to pull across the entire area (so spaced off enough that air can be pulled through the entire shrouded area), or to mount it nearly flush, and pull only through the swept area, while leaving any remaining area open to unobstructed airflow.

Don't want to go there, but feel it's worth mentioning...the stock clutch fan is likely to cool better than electrics. Electrics may have an advantage with AC and low engine speed, also water crossings if you have them on a switch. Other than that, they add a lot of extra failure points. Windstar fans are a lot easier to mount.

Those are probably Delphi connectors, if you go to mouser.com and start playing around with the search function, you should probably be able to narrow Delphi connectors down to a few pages, especially since they are just two prong, finding the ones that match. Then search that part number out in the linked Delphi documentation, and find the terminals that match. Yes, you can buy pigtails normally, but then you are relying on a joint for a connection AND the connector. When dealing with the heavier wire like electric fans use, soldering is not usually a very good option, and crimp joints are often difficult to make. My opinion, I know lots of people get away with soldered or crimped connections, I just don't mind paying the money for the parts and putting it together myself.

 

[The Butcher]

OEM strategy is generally to cover the entire radiator with fan/shroud to pull across the entire area (so spaced off enough that air can be pulled through the entire shrouded area), or to mount it nearly flush, and pull only through the swept area, while leaving any remaining area open to unobstructed airflow.

Don't want to go there, but feel it's worth mentioning...the stock clutch fan is likely to cool better than electrics. Electrics may have an advantage with AC and low engine speed, also water crossings if you have them on a switch. Other than that, they add a lot of extra failure points. Windstar fans are a lot easier to mount.

Those are probably Delphi connectors, if you go to mouser.com and start playing around with the search function, you should probably be able to narrow Delphi connectors down to a few pages, especially since they are just two prong, finding the ones that match. Then search that part number out in the linked Delphi documentation, and find the terminals that match. Yes, you can buy pigtails normally, but then you are relying on a joint for a connection AND the connector. When dealing with the heavier wire like electric fans use, soldering is not usually a very good option, and crimp joints are often difficult to make. My opinion, I know lots of people get away with soldered or crimped connections, I just don't mind paying the money for the parts and putting it together myself.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction on those connections. I'll take a look and see if I can find the ones for it, as I agree with you that having the right connectors makes one less failure point.

I read another thread earlier about the stock fan clutch likely being better than electric like you said, but since I have two of the caveats where electric is a good option (I have A/C and will have quite a bit of idle time and lower engine speeds) thenI think the electric route should be OK for me. If not, I can always go back and just have my father-in-law fab up some wicked aluminum fan shroud for the stock fan. This electric fan doesn't look terribly difficult to mount, but of course I am saying that without having even put it up next to the radiator to see how it is going to line up. I figured a couple of brackets could be fabricated to mount up the fan to the radiator, so hopefully that will be as easy as I am envisioning!

OK, update 5 minutes after posting the above... I looked at Mauser.com (great resource!), and I think something like 324 pages of Delphi connectors came up when I typed in Delphi connectors in their search box. I think tomorrow I'll swing buy a Chevy dealer and get with one of their parts guys to see if we can break down the schematic for the fan assembly connectors since I know it will plug into a 07-09 Silverado. Maybe I'll get lucky and can buy them or a harness from Chevy. If that doesn't get me anywhere then maybe I'll check back on Mauser to see if I can narrow it down more than the 300 some pages that came up. Thanks again for pointing me in that direction.

 

[The Butcher]

We got the drum off one side of my 14 bolt. The spindle looks a bit rusty, but I don't think it is necessarily pitted. First pic is right after pulling off the drum, second is after cleaning it up a bit with a rag and thinner. Looks like the surface is machined, and I assume the bearings ride on this surface and I should avoid getting too aggressive with cleaning it. However, is there some cleaning protocol for getting this rust off before I slap it all back together?

 

[The Butcher]

Also, when I go to put the spindle nut back on is there a certain torque value I'm trying to achieve? I used an impact to get it off and it spun right off, so I couldn't tell how tight it was on there. Seemed fairly loose, and then of course there is the dowel that locks it in place which keeps it from backing off. Just wasn't sure if hand tight was good, or if I need to put 100lbs on it or what.

 

[6872xtc]

I think that your biggest concern is going to be where the seal runs on the spindle. You may need to step up to the 2 piece seals like ORD sells. But either way, I would use some fine emery cloth to Polish the rust off where the seal and the bearing rides.
Maybe some 220 grit?

 

[dyeager535]

mouser.com connectors->automotive connectors->delphi connection systems+connectors+two position+female "apply filters".

Looks to me like you need to measure the width of the blades. The 630 series looks promising, 15454358 to be exact. Not positive, but http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/105/dcs_drawing_15454358-893717.pdf is the drawing, blade width in MM of that series connector is given here http://www.delphi.com/docs/default-source/old-delphi-files/ab9935c7-869c-442f-8963-5c68ca8642a5-pdf

It is often a fair bit of work to find the proper connector or terminal initially, but they are out there. If you get lucky on that drawing, it lists the rest of the components as well. $20+ for the pigtail (PT2649 or 13580874 seem to be the right piece based on shape), 15454358 is $2.09 at mouser (again, hoping that is right), and IMO they have some of the best shipping rates in the industry. Sometimes if I just can't figure it out, I'll buy one of each to justify the shipping cost, then go back once I know the part numbers I really need.

IMO on the fan controls, well, I like to make work. I'd preferably use the ECM to control the fans (probably not easy to control dual fans with a TBI ECM). I'm sure that would be a lot more work, but it would be set it and forget it, and as waterproof as it could be. Outside of that, there are temperature switches that can be used in the coolant passages to control fans, and that would be fairly bulletproof as well. Again, no or very little concern with water there. I know the Buick GN's used an electric fan switch, but you'd need/want one with a turn-on temp above the thermostat by a good 10*+, and shutoff above the thermostat rated temp as well, plus the secondary on a higher temp switch. The Echlin catalog is a good resource, the one I have looked at lists the on/off temps plus threads. IIRC the thread diameter for GM temp senders on the later SBC heads/intake are all 3/8 NPT.

I am not a fan of adjustable temperature switches, there should be no need to mess with them. Set the on temp for high enough the fan isn't cycling constantly, and the low temp high enough above thermostat temp that the fan shuts off, and never think about it again. So if it can be done with switches instead of a fancy adjustable piece that can fail, why not go that route? FWIW GM was running the late 80's car engines up to about 220* before the primary fan came on, and off was 205* IIRC. That was all ECM control that I'm aware of, although the TBI cars if a single electric fan may have used a switch. The secondary fan switch on the early TPI Camaro's was 240*, but that is a backup, not what they expected them to run at.

FWIW the Derale setup doesn't get very high reviews overall. I didn't read all the reviews, just looked at the overall rating numbers. The big thing now seems to be controllers that slowly ramp up the fan RPM's, to take the strain off the alternator. They generally draw a lot of amps on startup, which can tax the older alternators.

 

[The Butcher]

mouser.com connectors->automotive connectors->delphi connection systems+connectors+two position+female "apply filters".

Looks to me like you need to measure the width of the blades. The 630 series looks promising, 15454358 to be exact. Not positive, but http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/105/dcs_drawing_15454358-893717.pdf is the drawing, blade width in MM of that series connector is given here http://www.delphi.com/docs/default-source/old-delphi-files/ab9935c7-869c-442f-8963-5c68ca8642a5-pdf

It is often a fair bit of work to find the proper connector or terminal initially, but they are out there. If you get lucky on that drawing, it lists the rest of the components as well. $20+ for the pigtail (PT2649 or 13580874 seem to be the right piece based on shape), 15454358 is $2.09 at mouser (again, hoping that is right), and IMO they have some of the best shipping rates in the industry. Sometimes if I just can't figure it out, I'll buy one of each to justify the shipping cost, then go back once I know the part numbers I really need.

IMO on the fan controls, well, I like to make work. I'd preferably use the ECM to control the fans (probably not easy to control dual fans with a TBI ECM). I'm sure that would be a lot more work, but it would be set it and forget it, and as waterproof as it could be. Outside of that, there are temperature switches that can be used in the coolant passages to control fans, and that would be fairly bulletproof as well. Again, no or very little concern with water there. I know the Buick GN's used an electric fan switch, but you'd need/want one with a turn-on temp above the thermostat by a good 10*+, and shutoff above the thermostat rated temp as well, plus the secondary on a higher temp switch. The Echlin catalog is a good resource, the one I have looked at lists the on/off temps plus threads. IIRC the thread diameter for GM temp senders on the later SBC heads/intake are all 3/8 NPT.

I am not a fan of adjustable temperature switches, there should be no need to mess with them. Set the on temp for high enough the fan isn't cycling constantly, and the low temp high enough above thermostat temp that the fan shuts off, and never think about it again. So if it can be done with switches instead of a fancy adjustable piece that can fail, why not go that route? FWIW GM was running the late 80's car engines up to about 220* before the primary fan came on, and off was 205* IIRC. That was all ECM control that I'm aware of, although the TBI cars if a single electric fan may have used a switch. The secondary fan switch on the early TPI Camaro's was 240*, but that is a backup, not what they expected them to run at.

FWIW the Derale setup doesn't get very high reviews overall. I didn't read all the reviews, just looked at the overall rating numbers. The big thing now seems to be controllers that slowly ramp up the fan RPM's, to take the strain off the alternator. They generally draw a lot of amps on startup, which can tax the older alternators.

Wow! Thanks so much for not only drilling down to get me in the right direction on the connectors, but also for the insight on how to set it all up. I'll measure my connectors on the fan and see if those will fit. I wasn't really fond of the way the adjustable temp harnesses worked either, but I'm not going to try and get as sophisticated as wiring straight to the ECM. I was hoping to find a preset switch that was maybe at 190 and 210 that would do both fans, and then install the probe type sensor in the fins of the radiator. I found a harness from Painless (30116) that has 195 on 185 off preset. Looks like it has a thread in temp sensor. Is there a place to mount that already my intake manifold or in the water jacket in the head? Not sure how to identify that if so. That harness is made to use with an ECM, but I think it could be used independently as well? I assume it just needs a wire to go to the A/C for sensing whether that is on or not, and the other to the temp sensor. If I'm off on that please straighten me out. Thanks!

 

[The Butcher]

I think that your biggest concern is going to be where the seal runs on the spindle. You may need to step up to the 2 piece seals like ORD sells. But either way, I would use some fine emery cloth to Polish the rust off where the seal and the bearing rides.
Maybe some 220 grit?

I might call Chris at ORD and get his input on that since you mentioned using their 2 piece seals. I was concerned about that mating surface providing a proper seal as well. Anyone know where to find and exploded version of the seal/bearing/spindle assembly? I would think 220 grit might be a bit aggressive. I was thinking some 400 or 600 maybe?

 

[dyeager535]

Wow! Thanks so much for not only drilling down to get me in the right direction on the connectors, but also for the insight on how to set it all up. I'll measure my connectors on the fan and see if those will fit. I wasn't really fond of the way the adjustable temp harnesses worked either, but I'm not going to try and get as sophisticated as wiring straight to the ECM. I was hoping to find a preset switch that was maybe at 190 and 210 that would do both fans, and then install the probe type sensor in the fins of the radiator. I found a harness from Painless (30116) that has 195 on 185 off preset. Looks like it has a thread in temp sensor. Is there a place to mount that already my intake manifold or in the water jacket in the head? Not sure how to identify that if so. That harness is made to use with an ECM, but I think it could be used independently as well? I assume it just needs a wire to go to the A/C for sensing whether that is on or not, and the other to the temp sensor. If I'm off on that please straighten me out. Thanks!

Your fan off temperature needs to be higher than your thermostat rated temp. Not that you HAVE to run a 195* thermostat with EFI, but there is no point in running a lower temp. If you went with a 185* off, you'd want at LEAST a 180* thermostat, but personally I'd want the difference to be greater. 5* is well within the margin of rated thermostat temp and what it actually runs at.

The Echlin catalog does not work for me here, maybe you will have better luck: http://www.pageturnpro.com/Four-Seasons/73617-NAPA-Echlin-Ignition,-Elect,-Emiss,-IPG/index.html#1

Both heads have a 3/8NPT port in them, I don't know if the TBI intakes have a spare NPT fitting or not, you'd have to look. If you need to, some later GM applications ran a combination water temp sender/switch (three wire) which combines the two TBI uses, assuming you have the temp sender in the drivers side head already for the factory temp gauge. (Single green wire) IIRC the aftermarket temp sender probes tended to be either 1/8 or 1/4 NPT, but that could be adapted if you wanted to go that route.

Lots of options, my way is my way, not necessarily the best or easiest, just what I prefer. I generally do a lot of research and work retrofitting parts, because I hate going back and having to fix it, or having things fail when I'm off the pavement. Some folks put a lot of emphasis on using factory parts because if they fail you can go get a replacement at the nearest parts store, where perhaps an aftermarket temp switch would be days out.

 

[The Butcher]

Your fan off temperature needs to be higher than your thermostat rated temp. Not that you HAVE to run a 195* thermostat with EFI, but there is no point in running a lower temp. If you went with a 185* off, you'd want at LEAST a 180* thermostat, but personally I'd want the difference to be greater. 5* is well within the margin of rated thermostat temp and what it actually runs at.

The Echlin catalog does not work for me here, maybe you will have better luck: http://www.pageturnpro.com/Four-Seasons/73617-NAPA-Echlin-Ignition,-Elect,-Emiss,-IPG/index.html#1

Both heads have a 3/8NPT port in them, I don't know if the TBI intakes have a spare NPT fitting or not, you'd have to look. If you need to, some later GM applications ran a combination water temp sender/switch (three wire) which combines the two TBI uses, assuming you have the temp sender in the drivers side head already for the factory temp gauge. (Single green wire) IIRC the aftermarket temp sender probes tended to be either 1/8 or 1/4 NPT, but that could be adapted if you wanted to go that route.

Lots of options, my way is my way, not necessarily the best or easiest, just what I prefer. I generally do a lot of research and work retrofitting parts, because I hate going back and having to fix it, or having things fail when I'm off the pavement. Some folks put a lot of emphasis on using factory parts because if they fail you can go get a replacement at the nearest parts store, where perhaps an aftermarket temp switch would be days out.

Great info. The Echlin catalog comes up on my computer at home. I'll have to spend some time searching the 2000+ pages though!

I have a new 180* thermostat going in, so that Painless harness might work with the 195/185 settings, but maybe that off setting is a little too close to 180? Probably need an off around 190*+ if I'm running a 180 thermostat, correct?

How about the Painless 30118? It's supposed to be for if you are installing an LS motor, but it has 205 on 190 off settings and it's dual fan capable. I think I would need a different plug for the temp sensor though which I imagine could be spliced on there. Says it has the plugs that fit the LS fans already, so maybe I'd get lucky and those would be the right ones for the fan I have. If not, I can splice on the right ones. Thoughts?

I'll take a look and see if I can find any of those fittings on my heads. Not real familiar with them but the info you gave helps send me in the right direction. Thanks again.