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Ford rims on Gm axles , reability?

Z

Zeitler

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put some whitespokes on the 14bff/D60..rims problably out of a ford so the centerhole is a good 1/4" bigger then the hubs..

i read somewhere that you don't want the wheels to ride on the studs only but on the hubs also or the studs could break..

is this true?
 
Didn't bother my truck...

On my 74 K20 I just junked yesterday :frown1: I had ford rims on it since 1990--they had larger center holes than the GM ones,and did not touch the "hub" in the center of the axle..I overloaded the truck a good many times,and I never had any troubles with the studs,or lug nuts loosening like all the doomsayers told me I would...I did have to use the "huge" ford lug nuts,they had a larger taperd surface than the GM ones,and were 1-1/16" in size on the hex VS 13/16 or 7/8 on the GM ones...I've heard most aftermarket wheels are made with the bigger center hole to reduce inventory--sort of a "one size fits all" type of deal...

Of course its best if the wheels fit exactly as they were designed so the hub carries most of the weight and stress,and allows the lug studs to merely hold the rim on the axle..but in my experience,I dont feel its an absolute must--after what I carried in my truck sevearal times with no problems,I dont sweat having the centers fit "perfect"...you have EIGHT 9/16" studs,thats a total of 4+ inches of steel alltogether holding up the weight and torque--it was enough I guess...no failures on my truck at least..

.If I had a huge camper and was driving across the country,I'd probably want the OEM rims just to be safer than sorry,but I also see 1 ton dumps and ramp trucks with the "bigger center hole" rims too,and they have no troubles.. :dunno: :thinking:
 
mikey_d05 said:
No, it's not. Studs support the weight and transmit the torque.
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As mentioned above, this isn't true with hub centric designs, which I believe all of GM's axles are, or at least the large majority. Transmitting torque yes, but the weight is on the hub if the wheel fits right.

This is probably one of those "it's best but" situations where the studs are strong enough to support the weight, but thats just not the way GM designed things.
 
dyeager535 said:
As mentioned above, this isn't true with hub centric designs, which I believe all of GM's axles are, or at least the large majority. Transmitting torque yes, but the weight is on the hub if the wheel fits right.

This is probably one of those "it's best but" situations where the studs are strong enough to support the weight, but thats just not the way GM designed things.
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What about c-clip axles theres barely any if no ridge sticking out of the axle that the rim would ride on? But even for ff axles once the hub is mounted up I could probably fit a 0.050" or more feeler gauge between the hub and rim when the rim is mounted and torqed down. I dont think that the rim will shift that much as the wheel spins on the ground. If it did there is going to be a much bigger problem on your hands, like trying to steer on the freeway with no wheels doing 60 mph on the freeway. I really dont know though for sure, I may be talking out of my ass. But I dont think I would worry much about it. Knowing me it would just aesthetically kind of bother me. I like to look gaze into my full-floater hub and dana 60 axle, it truly is a beautiful sight.
 
I may very well be wrong, but I definitely did not think any of the older GM's were designed to be hub-centric.........meaning that the lugs and studs carried the weight.
 
To be quite honest I do not know the true meaning of hub-centric, but I know that newer Ford S/D's are set up that way, and they require special rims because of it. I've seen nothing like the about our trucks and as mentioned, almost all aftermarket rims are set up with a larger center hole. I've never heard of any failures due to this and would hesitate to believe a report that attributed a failure to that specific detail. Truth is, in the factory configuration, the center MIGHT support a little bit of weight, but my guess is you could get a feeler guage in there and prove otherwise.
 
Probably 90 percentof all hub and rim seperations are a result of improper torqing of the lugs. I also doubt there has been any failures from rims being too big, if your rim falls off more than likely its due to improper installation of rim/axle assemblies and a few component failures.
 
K5er4Life said:
What about c-clip axles theres barely any if no ridge sticking out of the axle that the rim would ride on? But even for ff axles once the hub is mounted up I could probably fit a 0.050" or more feeler gauge between the hub and rim when the rim is mounted and torqed down. I dont think that the rim will shift that much as the wheel spins on the ground. If it did there is going to be a much bigger problem on your hands, like trying to steer on the freeway with no wheels doing 60 mph on the freeway. I really dont know though for sure, I may be talking out of my ass. But I dont think I would worry much about it. Knowing me it would just aesthetically kind of bother me. I like to look gaze into my full-floater hub and dana 60 axle, it truly is a beautiful sight.
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Look at any GM IFS vs. SFA application. Put SFA rims on an IFS axle and look at the hubs. I've got a later IFS 14SF in my truck, and while the SFA wheels fit, the hub cutout on the wheel is nowhere near close to what the IFS hub size is. Hub centric means that the lug studs/lug nuts do not center the wheel, the hub centers the wheel. That means the hub carries the weight.

The hub "lip" on the axles that I've seen (again, all GM stuff, and c-clip) is always at LEAST the same thickness as the stock wheel, if not slightly more thick, which is all it takes. I can't think of any reason GM would even use a hub "lip" on axles if it weren't functional. Certainly not coincidentally exactly the same size as the cutout of the wheel.
 
K5er4Life said:
Probably 90 percentof all hub and rim seperations are a result of improper torqing of the lugs. I also doubt there has been any failures from rims being too big, if your rim falls off more than likely its due to improper installation of rim/axle assemblies and a few component failures.
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This is exactly why hub centric designs aren't prone to this. Lug nut torque is not nearly as critical (in the grand scheme of things) when the lug nuts are NOT centering the wheel PLUS holding the vehicles weight.

Don't read that wrong, hub centric or not loose lug nuts are bad, but on non-hub centric, there is a LOT more working against them than hub-centric.
 
Ok, this is kind of getting off topic, the original question was whether the Ford rims would work on his Chevy axles, I think we're all in agreement that the answer is yes and since the axles are not hub-centric, the size of the center hole is not critical...correct?
 
mikey_d05 said:
I think we're all in agreement that the answer is yes and since the axles are not hub-centric, the size of the center hole is not critical...correct?
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Every GM car and truck that I have seen made since 1970 DOES have hub-centric axles and wheels. Car, truck, van, 2 wheel drive, four wheel drive... all of them.


Also, no feeler gauge will fit between my wheels and hub on my '95 C1500, I have to kick the wheel off every time.






.
 
GM axles are not hub-centric. If they were, you wouldn't use conical lugnuts. Many Ford axles are hub-centric.

So... why is it that GM uses the same size hole in the wheel as the center to the axleshaft/hub/rotor? So the people assembling the vehicle can put them on easier.

Having the hole in the wheel a certain size is not critical on anything but hub-centric axles and wheels.


Most of the weight carrying is done by the friction between the wheel mating surface and the wheel. This is why a competent person never puts grease or antiseize between the wheel and the rotor/bearing hub/drum. Smart people clean the wheel's mating surface and the rotor/bearing hub/drum mating surface before assembly.
 
CyberSniper said:
GM axles are not hub-centric. If they were, you wouldn't use conical lugnuts. Many Ford axles are hub-centric.
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MOST GM axles are not hub-centric, but some are. 1960-66 GM 1 ton cab/chassis trucks used hub-centric dually rims with flat surface lugnuts/locknuts. Anything with a tapered lugnut is not hub-centric though because the lug-nut will be the over riding force when torqued. The stock GM wheels on most vehicles are a loose slip fit over the hub, not a loose press fit. Rust and dirt can make them feel like it though.
 
wow ,lots of replies..

I think i'll use those rims for a while (only 7" wide) then upgrade to something better..

what is the correct angle on the conical part of the lugnuts for steelwheels ?
 
I'll just post one more time, since we are ging slightly off topic here.

Just a couple quotes:

"(hub-centricity) This refers to a situation where the center bore hole of the wheel exactly matches the vehicle's hub diameter." (Yokohama) This matches the way GM axles are designed.

"With a hub-centric wheel, the large center hole is precisely sized and has a chamfer where it meets the wheel hub. When the wheel is installed and the lug nuts are tightened, the raised centersection of the hub fits tightly into the chamfered hole of the wheel. With a hub-centric design, the lug nuts don't support any of the vehicle's weight" (off-road)

Given those, I'd almost be inclined to say most GM's are both. Yeah, lug nuts are chamfered, but why worry about precise axle/wheel hub fit in that case? If the tire didn't fall over, you could pull all the lugnuts on my 14SF and the wheel/truck wouldn't move. The hub cutout on my wheels is "exactly" (some tolerance I assume) the same as the axle, so...

Guess if the chamfer of the wheel is important to the hub centric design definition, need to look at a spare GM wheel.
 
gm wheels fit tight on hubs, even on the cars too like the caprices and such, fit tight on the hubs, have to knock them off hard sometimes to free them

weight rides on hub, drum rides on hub too, novas, s-10s, full size, etc.
stock factory

the ford wheels will bolt to gm hubs yes,,

hate to se it run that way, but many do,,
 
So... does this mean we should all scrap our aftermarket wheels? :screwy:

How many tall glasses of stupid have been consumed today?

If you actually look at most GM wheels...

You'll see that the lugnuts center the wheel. Some old junk uses lug bolts and some foreign stuff uses lug bolts... most of these are hub-centric.

A fine example is a STOCK GM IFS wheel, hub, and rotor. You'll notice that the stamped steel center uses a small lip on it. On the back of the wheel there is a small recess from the stamping (if steel) or casting (if aluminum). True hub-centric wheels won't have this.

True hub-centric wheels are nearly an interference fit. Most GM wheels will slide right on. The reason why the center hole is as small as it is is for ease of putting the wheels on the vehicle. Think about how hard it is to lift a tire and get the lugnuts on a semi-floater axle. Now imagine a 115lb woman doing ~58 cars/hour like that. Most stock GM wheels will set on the center hub and you can spin the lugnuts on easy due to the fact that there is enough backspacing in the wheel and it can rest on the hub.

If the hub were actually holding the weight of the vehicle there would be a nearly-interference fit like the Ford oddballs. And wheels would be really expensive. Like Ford 7-lug expensive.


According to you silly people that believe GM wheels are hub-centric and the weight is supported by the hub I should be able to run with my lugnuts loose on my factory rally wheels with grease between the wheel and the hub. This is simply not possible (without catastrophic failure). The load holding is done neither by the studs nor the hub. It's done in the friction between the wheel mating surface on the hub/rotor/drum and the wheel. When you run your lugnuts up to 80ftlbs you're really increasing the friction between the wheel and flange.


According to most of you hoodlums we should all be dead because we run aftermarket wheels. I should be super duper dead because I run mag-style (no cones) aluminum wheels that have a good 1/4" between the center hole in the wheel and the hub. Better call up all the wheel manufacturers with your "discovery" and tell them to fix it. :haha:
 
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