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Into the rabbit hole of EFI tuning. ( Speed density/VE )

My thought process is you could tune for idle, part throttle and WOT with the vacuum gauge then blend the table so it doesn't have a bad transition.

I'm a newbie at this but find it very interesting and challenging.

Yes, it is very interesting!

The thing is that even within the same RPM range, pick one, 1300RPM for instance, look at how many cells are in that column. Every single one of those represents a different load on the engine. Most likely, there is an opportunity for power by optimizing each cell (and surrounding of course), which leads to the blending comments. But going back to the individual cells, based on MAP at a given RPM. Just randomly picking a situation, say you are starting off on flat ground, unloaded. Then imagine you are doing that with the rig going slightly up hill. Then the same but steeper. Now pulling a trailer. And so on and so on. Every one of those will likely be crossing 1300RPM in a different timing cell, since the load (MAP) has changed. I recall seeing somewhere that timing is again easier to get right with LS tuning. I've got manual trans, I suppose an auto could be simpler to tune for as well. Don't forget though, that timing and fueling are interrelated.

Took me quite awhile to get fueling and timing decent under heavy load, as test driving under the same conditions to see if my tune was better or worse was difficult. But what a change pulling a hill with the trailer when fueling and timing was closer to being optimal. Literal difference of 50MPH vs 60MPH on the same grade.

Even on a carbed setup its entirely possible to run high initial timing to get good idle, still have a good curve for power, AND have it cruise with decent timing for economy...but it's a lot tougher than it is with a computer, because with an ECM/PCM you can make the timing whatever you want, at the point you want it. Obviously you do what the engine wants, not what you want, but being able to dial timing in, basically unencumbered by mechanical difficulties and limitations, changes the way you look at timing strategy.
 
Here is something weird I'm not sure about. Sometimes at idle my timing dips to about 11 degrees, the smallest number in the graph is 18 degrees.
 
Do you have the spark idle control turned on? It can use timing to try and get it to idle smoother.
 
That does make sense, makes you wonder how long it takes to learn these on the fly.
The computer does not learn any timing, it only learns fuel, at the timing you set. If you change the timing, it might want a different fuel amount, and it will learn that.
 
If you get any detonation at a certain point, lets say 2500 RPM at load for example, change it to 2D, and then go ramp it up slower. You can leave the WOT the same but have the laptop interpolate it by highlighting all the cells you want to change overlapping each end, and then right clicking, and "fill ...." rows or columns depending on which way you want to fill it, horizontal or vertical.

So if I select every cell between 1200 and 3000 RPM like this, and then right click and select "fill row values"...

select this...

1642815160200.png


then fill row values turns it into this...

1642815225781.png

Which ramps the timing up slower with RPM at 3000 instead of 2000....

Here it is in 2D....you can see it ramps slower, even slower may be necessary for a towing vehicle...you could ramp it up by 3500 or 4000 if needed. But you may also need to lower the WOT timing.

1642815332478.png
 
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That technique is quite effective. If you just hit "smooth all" it does this for you, but I don't use that feature with the timing, sometimes I use it with the fueling, but not usually because at times it does something I don't want it to.

1642815480702.png
 
And you can do that stuff in seconds...it doesn't take long if you know the select and right click trick. Don't try to do it manually. You can also select cells and multiply or add to them all at once with the keyboard. You use the "offset" command.
 
Do you have the spark idle control turned on? It can use timing to try and get it to idle smoother.
Yes, this was why it was jumping around. turned it off and then back on after a short drive.

Sat down for about 5 hours this afternoon tuning the trans shift points and finally don't have it jumping out of OD. For some reason it doesn't cruise as well as it used to on the highway, it requires more skinny pedal.
 
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Next thing I want to do is mess with those RIFE sensor blocks and get the line pressure dialed in along with more sensors on the engine.
 
Yes, this was why it was jumping around. turned it off and then back on after a short drive.

Sat down for about 5 hours this afternoon tuning the trans shift points and finally don't have it jumping out of OD. For some reason it doesn't cruise as well as it used to on the highway, it requires more skinny pedal.

Glad to hear you got the trans not shifting around on you.
 
Glad to hear you got the trans not shifting around on you.
Yeah it's just weird, the tps reads 75 on the highway. I wish there was a way to get less but still maintain speed. I wonder if it has to do something with my cable?
 
Did you calibrate the TPS sensor after making any changes to the idle screw or throttle linkage? Does it feel like you are at 75% throttle? Check it with the engine off, it should read 0% with no throttle and go up to 100% as you reach full throttle. This is easily recalibrated in the Holley handheld or laptop.

It surely shouldn't take 3/4 throttle to maintain highway speed with your rig.

Also, check to make sure you are getting full throttle, it's a common mistake to hook up throttle cables and then when you floor the pedal you aren't actually opening the throttle blade(s) all the way. Make sure when your foot is to the floor that the actual throttle body doesn't have any more opening left. This is a common way to leave power on the table by not allowing yourself to floor it.
 
Did you calibrate the TPS sensor after making any changes to the idle screw or throttle linkage? Does it feel like you are at 75% throttle? Check it with the engine off, it should read 0% with no throttle and go up to 100% as you reach full throttle. This is easily recalibrated in the Holley handheld or laptop.

It surely shouldn't take 3/4 throttle to maintain highway speed with your rig.

Also, check to make sure you are getting full throttle, it's a common mistake to hook up throttle cables and then when you floor the pedal you aren't actually opening the throttle blade(s) all the way. Make sure when your foot is to the floor that the actual throttle body doesn't have any more opening left. This is a common way to leave power on the table by not allowing yourself to floor it.
I will have to check this when I get home, I do know with my foot off the pedal it reads 0 and all the way down is 100.
 
Bringing this back up as I have a few questions. Driving around here is where my timing is set. with it here at cruise it almost seems like the engine is shaking?

I have noticed sometimes if I push the pedal the tps will read 100 even when my foot isn't to the floor? Assuming thr tps needs relearn?

Also have noticed hot and at idle the iac is at 12, I thought this was supposed to be near 4.

20220202_204609.jpg
 
Sounds like to me I'm experiencing to little of timing which is causing it to knock or ping, also sometimes it's a little hard to start which needs a little skinny pedal to "clear out" The engine runs all day long at 193 and barely even gets to 200 right now. This also explains why my MPG is so low...

Sometimes I hate knowing things...
 
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Too little timing won't cause knock or ping, too much will.

Too little timing can cause it to lose a lot of power or efficiency though.

Definitely recalibrate the TPS. Make sure the screws aren't loose too. If your TPS is off it can think you are at WOT when you aren't putting the WOT timing and fuel into effect when it should be different.

If the engine feels like it's shaking or uneven it could be misfiring, how do your plugs look? Fouled plugs can mess everything up, because then it won't burn the oxygen, then the engine tries to add more fuel because it thinks its lean, and then it gets even worse.
 
Too little timing won't cause knock or ping, too much will.

Too little timing can cause it to lose a lot of power or efficiency though.

Definitely recalibrate the TPS. Make sure the screws aren't loose too. If your TPS is off it can think you are at WOT when you aren't putting the WOT timing and fuel into effect when it should be different.

If the engine feels like it's shaking or uneven it could be misfiring, how do your plugs look? Fouled plugs can mess everything up, because then it won't burn the oxygen, then the engine tries to add more fuel because it thinks its lean, and then it gets even worse.
Getting off work in a hour or so, going to take a look at all of this.
 

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