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Is it worth the cost to rebuild a gen1 SBC?

The newer dipsticks can be swapped around. I like to use the longer, t handle dipsticks in place of the older shorter dipsticks.

Martin.

I wouldn't mind a longer dipstick, any idea what applications used that style?

This is supposed to be a 2000 5.7L in a Denali:

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It shouldn't be this hard lol. I've got headers as well, they list this as the replacement, I can see where the mount style might interfere with the header tubes. Someone might want to tell them its upside down:

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Got the M-99HV-S from PepBoys. It *is* the complete setup, pump, pickup and hardened driveshaft. Not bad for slightly more than a stock replacement IMO, and significantly cheaper than anywhere else. Most don't need it, I probably don't either, but I'm not worried about losing a couple HP. It will be interesting to see if oil pressure is affected at lower RPM's as much as it was with a stock pump. it fits with the stock pan, so 7.5" depth pans work with it.

Couldn't help myself, had to "port" it (smoothing out/blending the cast areas/passages that see oil, deburring the casting/gears) and while most certainly something that isn't going to make any difference I'll ever see, it'll keep me busy another evening. Got pics of the disassembled pump, will upload them once I get time.

Engine showing it will be here the 14th.

Will probably wait to order the pan and assorted small parts until I know what the long block comes with for a pan gasket. If its a one piece neoprene or rubber that GM didn't silicone in place, I'll reuse it.
 
Engine arrived. Nothing really exciting to post. All pics so far are here: http://s831.photobucket.com/user/dyeager535/library/Truck/New truck engine?sort=3&page=1

Blob of silicone here baffles me:
0714161543.jpg


The newer balancer setups are different due to the CPS reluctor (the balancer hub is shorter) but no idea why the need for silicone here. Never heard of a leak here before.

No dipstick tube, 4qt pan. Paperwork that came with engine gives GM part number for 5qt OEM pan, I can't find that part number. Maybe I wrote it down wrong.
 
Blob of silicone is there to keep the damper key in place.
 
Blob of silicone is there to keep the damper key in place.

Granted, I don't install many motors, or rebuild them, is this something I've just never witnessed before but it's common practice, or does it have something to do with the different balancer design with the CPS?

I'm hoping there is a key in there lol.
 
Granted, I don't install many motors, or rebuild them, is this something I've just never witnessed before but it's common practice, or does it have something to do with the different balancer design with the CPS?

I'm hoping there is a key in there lol.
I have actually seen a bunch of oil behing the balancer bolt upon disassembly of a couple small blocks. Oil was leaking past the keyway. Maybe that is why
 
Granted, I don't install many motors, or rebuild them, is this something I've just never witnessed before but it's common practice, or does it have something to do with the different balancer design with the CPS?

I'm hoping there is a key in there lol.
Not sure on that difference, but I wouldn't fuss. Justin's answer was as good as any. Makes me wonder if the key way is machined the length of the snout from the damper out

The old ones used a woodruff key, seems to work fine



How long til start up?
 
Engine arrived. Nothing really exciting to post. All pics so far are here: http://s831.photobucket.com/user/dyeager535/library/Truck/New truck engine?sort=3&page=1

Blob of silicone here baffles me:
0714161543.jpg


The newer balancer setups are different due to the CPS reluctor (the balancer hub is shorter) but no idea why the need for silicone here. Never heard of a leak here before.

No dipstick tube, 4qt pan. Paperwork that came with engine gives GM part number for 5qt OEM pan, I can't find that part number. Maybe I wrote it down wrong.

I am not 100% sure, but I think the gob of silicone is a tamper seal. If a crate engine is returned under warranty, and the gob of silicone is missing, then they know you opened the engine up, and replaced something like the camshaft or something.
 
That's a possibility--like those "tattle-tale" freeze plugs some rebuilders put in engines,to tell if the engine had been overheated ...thereby voiding the warranty..
 
Buddy said they do it because some of the keys aren't tight and can walk out. I guess tampering, leaking oil, or losing the key are all potentially viable reasons to do it.

No firm date on startup. Since the truck still runs, I need to get everything worked out before starting to tear that motor apart to get to the rockers, etc. and making it immobile. I need to get it done for hunting season, so end of October is my absolute deadline. Summer is busy, hard to get more than an hour or two here and there to work on it.

Realized today that I'm going to need to check pushrod length if I'm swapping rockers. Standard length didn't work in the last motor, that may be due to the retrofit roller lifters I used. Oddly on the rockers, Comp tech I emailed with doesn't know what I have. Pretty sure they only made one steel full roller version before the style they sell now, and that's what I have. I have to provide pics. He said if they are a rebuildable style, average cost for the service is $9.50/rocker.

Need to get the long block up on the stand, pull the pan, figure out if the pan gasket is only siliconed on the block side as it appears, swap oil pump, then buy/swap the pan to a 5qt, along with the rocker swap. I will braze a fitting for an oil temp sender/sensor to the new pan, I'm going to have to figure out what the proper fitting is for that.
 

Buddy said they do it because some of the keys aren't tight and can walk out. I guess tampering, leaking oil, or losing the key are all potentially viable reasons to do it.
No firm date on startup. Since the truck still runs, I need to get everything worked out before starting to tear that motor apart to get to the rockers, etc. and making it immobile. I need to get it done for hunting season, so end of October is my absolute deadline. Summer is busy, hard to get more than an hour or two here and there to work on it.

Realized today that I'm going to need to check pushrod length if I'm swapping rockers. Standard length didn't work in the last motor, that may be due to the retrofit roller lifters I used. Oddly on theI rockers, Comp tech I emailed with doesn't know what I have. Pretty sure they only made one steel full roller version before the style they sell now, and that's what I have. I have to provide pics. He said if they are a rebuildable style, average cost for the service is $9.50/rocker.

Need to get the long block up on the stand, pull the pan, figure out if the pan gasket is only siliconed on the block side as it appears, swap oil pump, then buy/swap the pan to a 5qt, along with the rocker swap. I will braze a fitting for an oil temp sender/sensor to the new pan, I'm going to have to figure out what the proper fitting is for that.


I removed my harmonic damper on my GM Goodwrench crate engine to install a COMP cams "computer control" RV cam, and my crankshaft key was in tight. The key dips into the crankshaft key slot so it cannot walk in or out. I made a brass "T" port that I screwed into the oil pressure gallery plug located behind the intake manifold on a small block Chevy, so I can screw in the oil pressure switch on one side, and a direct feed oil pressure gauge on the other. You might be able to use the same thing for your oil temp gauge, but I am not sure if the oil at the oil gallery plug would be the same temp as in the pan. The silicone on the pan is only on the block side. I know because I removed the stock 4-QT pan that came with my crate engine, and installed a 5-QT pan on my engine.
 


I removed my harmonic damper on my GM Goodwrench crate engine to install a COMP cams "computer control" RV cam, and my crankshaft key was in tight. The key dips into the crankshaft key slot so it cannot walk in or out. I made a brass "T" port that I screwed into the oil pressure gallery plug located behind the intake manifold on a small block Chevy, so I can screw in the oil pressure switch on one side, and a direct feed oil pressure gauge on the other. You might be able to use the same thing for your oil temp gauge, but I am not sure if the oil at the oil gallery plug would be the same temp as in the pan. The silicone on the pan is only on the block side. I know because I removed the stock 4-QT pan that came with my crate engine, and installed a 5-QT pan on my engine.

That's right...I forgot they were that half moon shape. Been awhile since I had one apart lol. What did you use for a pan? Aftermarket or factory? I double-checked the paperwork that came with the new motor, I'm thinking it's a misprint...not even a mention online about the PN being discontinued. That never happens, you'll always find something about a real PN. I did find out the 1986+ 5qt Corvette pans are discontinued. FWIW the difference between my 5qt(?) factory pan on the 2 bolt motor is about 3" additional forward length in the sump compared to the 1 piece 4qt pans. 7.5 and 10.5" nearest I could tell.

These sender/sensors are a pain because they are I believe 1/4NPT. So larger than all the threaded fittings, except the one above the oil filter, which is 1/4" IIRC. But I've already got that in use for the combination oil pressure sender/fuel pump switch, and anything extra beyond that would be a pain with the headers. I hate using adapters, the point they get tight is about 1/2 turn before the sender/switch is oriented correctly, and a 1/4 turn before it's oriented properly is when the fitting snaps.

I'm pretty sure the TPI intake obscures the rear oil gallery fitting so much that it's worthless, even before assembly. This block I noticed today does not have the plug near the front of the motor, so that location is out as well. I want to try and measure what effect if any the pistons being exposed to different combustion chamber temp has on the oil. (plus oil temp before/after an oil cooler) This will be for testing only, AFAIK oil temp is rarely an issue on the SBC, but there are some unanswered questions out there IMO. I plan to just install a plug until and once I am done with the tests, I'm not leaving something plastic hanging off my oil pan holding all the oil in. :)

Took a pic of the spare Vortec block with the oil pump removed. If you are OCD, you won't like it. You were warned:
point085%20X%20point425.jpg


I know, I know, you look at that and can't believe your eyes at how bad it is. "What am I looking for " you say. See the thumbnail shaped black spot (that shape is actually a "lune", who knew?) conspicuously surrounded by brighter metal. Yep. It's as bad as you think. That sliver of black is a mismatch between the cap and the pump discharge. All that work making the pump work better and push more fluid, and it's met with an iron wall. Now, because I'm nice like this, I'm going to calculate the percentage of area lost to that stupid lune. And then everyone will feel the need to drop their pan on their motors that have worked perfectly fine for the last 100,000 miles, to make sure catastrophe isn't right around the corner. If you know catastrophe is staring you in the face, break out the carbide burr and shower yourself (and your motor) in microscopic shards of metal. I am.

Seriously though, I'm going to see what it looks like on the new motor, and if it's off, I'll take the 2 minutes to blend that. This is probably well known to any that tear motors down on a regular basis, another learning experience for me however. Again...I know that me worrying about, in my application, makes me the lune.

New engine is on the stand, going to try and make time in the next week to get the pan off.
 
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I bought a 5-Qt pan from Dorman. GM no longer has a 5-Qt pan available. All the 5-QT pans from Dorman, Jegs, Summit, or whatever name brand is off the same Chines assembly line. Mine fit OK. I am using the oil pump and pick-up that came with my new crate engine. It is a high volume/standard pressure pump. I checked the oil pump pick-up to pan clearance on my new 5-Qt oil pan with some "play-doh", and it was right on the money at 3/8" clearance. The only mods I did to my oil pump was a steel sleeve oil pump drive shaft, and a oil pump pick-up screen retainer bracket I got from Jegs. I remember reading something a long time ago about checking the oil pump cavitation well lining up correctly.

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Apparently there are a couple of different pump designs, even among the SBC apps.

The pump I have, based on the BBC design, has a recessed area in the casting where the oil pump mates to the block. The oil flows into this recess, which is at the top right in the below photo:
stock%20bbc%20pump%20pic.jpg


And there is a matching cast in recess on the main cap, this is the new engine I got:

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When you install a BBC or BBC-style pump on the main cap, the mismatch is a disruption to flow, but due to the cast in recess in the pump discharge area, it's not really going to contribute much to limiting flow.

The one that came out of the 1990's Vortec block was this design, and the new motor is also. The new motor pump is an M155. This is what some of the new(?) SBC pumps look like:

Point515%20diameter.jpg


Any misalignment IS a restriction to flow with this design. Car craft or some other did a HP comparison between various high pressure or volume pumps, and "standard", but all Milodon. IMO those results are misleading. The Milodon pumps tested, even the "standard' are not cast like the ones GM is using. All the Milodon pumps are cast like the BBC pumps in the oil discharge/rear main cap mating area, so a mismatch with that style is going to result in nothing like it will with the above pictured stock pump.

Going back to this picture:

0718161708.jpg


I laid out some dielectric grease and bolted the M155 long block oil pump back up to the block. Not the best material to use for this, but what I had. Not real clear in the photo, but you can see a portion of the semicircle of the misalignment there. This is worse than with the BBC-style pump FWIW.

Anyone that is a math major, please feel free to check my work.

I took some measurements, then used an online calc to figure out the overlapping area. The discharge passage on the M155 pump is 1/2". The center of the circles are .34" apart. The overlapping area is right about 20%. 20% restriction to me seems pretty significant. I would assume if nothing else it results in wasted energy. Obviously not a huge concern, GM didn't seem to have an issue with it. I just find it interesting. I would not be surprised if the tests that show the BBC pumps costing little in the way of HP are a result of this, but you'd have to know what the discharge side of the pumps looked like that were tested.

Also interesting, I can find little out about the M155, but it definitely appears to be the redesigned "weak" castings that are prone to break under hard use. The M99 (BBC pump designed for the SBC) is a much more substantial piece of hardware. For $45, you seem to get quite a bit compared to the $20-35 pumps.

Edit 26JUL16: ARP 230-7003 stud kit fits perfect in the rear main cap. I put a dab of grease on the end of the stud, threaded into the main cap, and it did not make contact with the bearing. Un-threaded portion of the stud bottoms out before the stud hits the bearing. Make sure to check this clearance however, bad news if the stud puts pressure on the bearing and with manufacturing tolerances and different year blocks, it could be an issue. Stud length is near perfect with the BBC-type pump, the windage tray will take a bit out of the thread length engagement however.

FWIW, the stock windage tray does not work with the BBC-style pumps. And that is why a longer stud or bolt is needed, the BBC pump is a bit taller in this area. I'm going to cut and weld this tray back together to fit. Just need to add a "step" to reach the stud. Might need to trim around the pump body a hair, but just.

Also found out that nearly all of the additional capacity of the summitracing pan is at the FRONT of the pan. I measured it all out, this pan is 3/4's of an inch deeper in the shallowest part of the pan than the stock 4qt pan. Roughly 4.25" deep vs. 3.5".

Edit 27JUL16: Summit pan doesn't clear the front two pan stud/nuts that come with the stock pan, the flanged nuts hit the pan. A fair hassle to fix, the studs have to be removed to use a punch and dimple the pan corners, but studs won't go back in with the pan on, so unbolt everything, remove pan, install studs, repeat until the nuts go on.

Made an oil pump pickup install tool out of 1" id tube of some sort I had lying around, got pickup started via eyeball, tested fit, perfect. How often does that happen? :) Tried heating pump body up to about 150-200*, and freezing the pickup, didn't seem to affect the interference fit between the two, still required quite a bit of effort and certainly couldn't be installed by hand. Makes checking pan to pickup fit really easy if you cut a large hole in the side of the pan. I figured now is the time to weld in the oil temperature sender/sensor bung. Have to bolt the pan to the spare block (don't want to ruin the pan gasket with heat) and will weld it up. May force me to buy a ~$200 engine stand from summit, which is hand cranked.
 
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Since I have a few engines laying around, I *had* to get one of these:

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Other than metric fasteners (18/19MM wrenches or sockets needed, along with metric allen wrenches!!) and having to use a carbide burr on one of the bolt holes to get it to fit...oh, and the fact that Jeg's was $50 cheaper immediately after I bought it from Summit. :(, I'm quite satisfied. I'm sure it could be improved, but metal wheels with brakes, and the crank make easy work of things. Didn't try, but it probably turns the engine over with one finger on the crank, and it holds wherever you stop the crank. Rolls on the floor really nice, which is welcome. Better have some 3/8" threaded rod handy...even the longest starter bolts I had aren't long enough to reach the block.

Not bad for $220. They sell the same thing with a different brand name, for ~$300. Looking at the Harbor Freight and cheaper non-crank stands, with the prevalence of plastic wheels and less-stable designs with a lower weight rating, was worth it to go with this, for me. I'd highly recommend this if you have the money and need an engine stand of some sort anyway, unless you can afford one of the uber-premium ones.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-908300ga/overview/
 
I got the 2-ton engine stand from Harbor Freight, and it is OK, but the thing I do not like about it is the legs are "V" shaped just like an engine hoist legs are. The legs of an engine hoist interfere with the legs of the engine stand when I am trying to switch an engine from the stand to the hoist or visa versa. Nice stand though...I like yours better than mine.

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