Just a few wires left...

[dave w]

But I did change the fuel yesterday. It didn't make a lick of difference...

The thing is though, the engine started, and ran off of that dead batery all the time. I never touched the timing during the engine swap. I only removed the distibuter cap to get the oil pressure sender plugged in...

It's never easy to figure out a "NO Start". I know I'm new to this board, but I've been working under the hood of cars for decades! I've learned plenty from my experiences under the hood, and the experiences of other under hood workers.

Maybe try pouring about 8 ounces of gas down into the intake manifold, then immediately try starting the engine. If the engine starts, but dies after running for about 10 - 15 seconds, the most likely problem is the engine is not getting fuel. Only pour about 8 ounces of gas down the intake once an hour!!!!!!!!!

If the engine will not start with gas poured into the intake manifold, then the most likely problem is the engine is not getting spark.

Every time I've had a "NO Start" engine it was because of one or more of 5 things.

1. No Fuel
2. No Spark
3. No Air - Because the timing chain broke, so the valves would not open / close. Also no spark because the timing chain broke and the camshaft would not turn, so the distributor rotor would not turn. Also no fuel because the timing chain broke the camshaft would not turn, and the mechanical fuel pump would not pump.
4. Insufficient starter speed. Either the battery was weak / dead or the starter was weak / dead, or the battery cables were corroded on the inside of the insulation, or the battery cable connections were corroded.
5. No Compression - see #3 because the camshaft would not turn, the pistons hit the valves and made holes in the pistons and bent and broke some of the the valves!

It is always one of the 5 things I've listed above, for an engine not starting. I'll buy a you a six pack of something cold, if the problem is something else.

dave w

 

[Clod_King]

I usually don't go by post count on how much someone knows. That can get you in trouble really quick... Either high or low...

I am gonna try the 8oz of fuel. I'm geussing 4oz per side correct?

I have a wire that I don't know about. It was a left over...

It's a tan wire (no stripe, just tan), and it's not listed on my schematics. It comes off of the fuel pump oil pressure switch. Comes right out of the plug. I wanted to try and figure this out on my own, but there is no mention of it coming off the switch...

Here is the schematic:

 

[Clod_King]

Nevermind the tan wire... I figured it out. It's for the oil pressure gauge in the cab. I'm geussing that wouldn't stop my truck from starting.

 

[dyeager535]

Oil pressure sender will not stop the engine from running, correct.

 

[Clod_King]

Okay, a little more information, maybe it will help:

I tried the 8oz of fuel trick just now. 4oz per barrel eyeballed on the small side to keep things safe. I got a pop (just straight headers right now), and then it seemed as though the engine was flooded. I was geussing it was from the fuel from past starting attempts, and the 8oz extra from today.

So I pulled the spark plugs, and just cranked it over. It went fine. Engine turned, and I did that a few times, then put the spark plugs back in.

Once the spark plugs were back inI tried cranking it over again. The starter sounded like it was under some hard labour. It rotated the crank pretty dang slow... I got one pop, and the engine stopped. Then from somewhere (maybe the starter) a tone, like a music note almost started up. Not a hum, and not a beep. But a tone.

So I hooked up my buddy's car to my truck with jumper cables, and tried to turn it over again. Again, got one pop, the starter stopped (overloaded again), and made the tonal sound.

I really think the engine would've started if I would've have sufficient starter speed.

I took out my circuit tester and got some measurments.


The battery was putting out 12.40V at the terminals.

The starter postive lug to the battery negative was 12.40V

The positive cable made 0.5 ohms when the tester was set to the 200 ohm setting.

The negative cable had 0.3 ohms when the tester was set to the 200 ohm setting.


I don't really know how to read the tester, it's a digital unit, and easy to get the numbers off of, but I don't quite understand all of the settings, and how it really works. That's why I included the settings, just in case I screwed up.

The starter is a remanfucatured unit purchased from crappy tire. I bought it weeks ago. Could I have gotten a bunk starter? I've heard of this happening before...

 

[dave w]

Okay, a little more information, maybe it will help:

I tried the 8oz of fuel trick just now. 4oz per barrel eyeballed on the small side to keep things safe. I got a pop (just straight headers right now), and then it seemed as though the engine was flooded. I was geussing it was from the fuel from past starting attempts, and the 8oz extra from today.

So I pulled the spark plugs, and just cranked it over. It went fine. Engine turned, and I did that a few times, then put the spark plugs back in.

Once the spark plugs were back inI tried cranking it over again. The starter sounded like it was under some hard labour. It rotated the crank pretty dang slow... I got one pop, and the engine stopped. Then from somewhere (maybe the starter) a tone, like a music note almost started up. Not a hum, and not a beep. But a tone.

So I hooked up my buddy's car to my truck with jumper cables, and tried to turn it over again. Again, got one pop, the starter stopped (overloaded again), and made the tonal sound.

I really think the engine would've started if I would've have sufficient starter speed.

I took out my circuit tester and got some measurments.


The battery was putting out 12.40V at the terminals.

The starter postive lug to the battery negative was 12.40V

The positive cable made 0.5 ohms when the tester was set to the 200 ohm setting.

The negative cable had 0.3 ohms when the tester was set to the 200 ohm setting.


I don't really know how to read the tester, it's a digital unit, and easy to get the numbers off of, but I don't quite understand all of the settings, and how it really works. That's why I included the settings, just in case I screwed up.

The starter is a remanfucatured unit purchased from crappy tire. I bought it weeks ago. Could I have gotten a bunk starter? I've heard of this happening before...

I think the positive and negative cables are OK. My thinking is anything less than on 1.0 ohm for a battery cable is OK.

A fully charged battery is 12.6 volts. Usually after I have a battery on a battery charger overnight, the battery voltage will be just over 13.0 volts just after removing the charger from the battery.

I think getting sufficient starter speed should be the immediate goal. Then deal with the other items on the engine "No Start" check list. I live near several chain type auto parts stores that will bench test a battery, and starter. It can be a pain in the A$$ to remove and replace a battery and / or starter.

dave w

 

[Clod_King]

I just pulled the starter. The rain let up for a few moments, so I took advantage of it.

Looks like the guy who rebuilt this particular unit forgot to install the two bolts in the end cap, and the whole unti seems pretty loose. I'm geussing that's the problem, and the cause of the miminal starter power.

I'm gonna install another one today hopefully. I'll keep you guys posted.

 

[Clod_King]

Okay, I installed the other starter. What a difference. The enginetunred over so well!

It wouldn't start though, so I removed the distributer, and clened the posts. Everything seemed fine.

My dad wrote down the firing order on a sheet of paper, and it was off by a post. Once the spark plug wires were connected properly, the engine ran. Rough, but it ran, and stopped.

I unplugged the fuse for the fuel pump, and started it again. Once it leaned out, it idled so, so, sooo well. Ran like it used to run when it was in the burb.

I plugged the fuse back in, started the engine, and it ran rough again. So the fuse came back out, and started it agian. Once the engine leaned out, it ran beautifully again.

So I am geussing there is too much fuel being dumped in. The fuel pump is an aftermarket inline style. It said it was made for TBI, and MPI engine swaps into carbureted vehicles.

I have two computer modules. I replaced the original unit because the engine ran funky with it. The new one fixed all the problems, and ran fantastically. But I think I fried that new computer during the swap. Because now it won't run with that computer hooked up. I fried it by hooking the battery cables up backwards... Stupid thing to do, but I did it...

Could the funky computer be dumping too much fuel into the engine?? It didn't do that when I used it before... But who knows what happened to it in the time it was sitting in the back of the burb.

 

[dave w]

Good job on figuring out the starter and spark plug wiring!

I would check fuel pressures with the fuse installed / removed, to try and figure out what is happening? Maybe with the fuse installed, there is something (sensor, who knows) getting 12 volts of power that should not be getting 12 volts of power that is causing the engine to run poorly?

The computer has a couple basic functions.
1. Control Fuel - Turn on / off fuel pump. Turn on / off fuel injectors.
2. Control Spark - Advance / Retard timing.

The injector driver in the computer is easily damaged if the the computer is wired wrong.



dave w

 

[Clod_King]

So I gotta get a fuel pressure tester then right?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUN-CP7838/

Would that one be alright?? Says it comes with a GM TBI test port adapter. I don't know where that is, but I'm sure it will explain it.

Should I go ahead and get another computer off of Ebay?? I think I will. Or maybe I can call up a wrecker and get one from there.

Like usual, I'll keep you guys posted.

 

[dave w]

So I gotta get a fuel pressure tester then right?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUN-CP7838/

The Summit fuel pressure tester will work, but I don't like the 0 - 100 PSI range gauge. For TBI I use a 0 - 30 PSI. I would suggest replacing the gauge in the Summit kit with this gauge http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-800130/

 

[Clod_King]

What should the PSI rating be?

And does the stock TBI throttle body have a fuel pressure regulator? Or should I get one?

 

[dave w]

TBI has a pressure regulator built into the TBI. Usually a TBI rebuild kit will have a new pressure regulator in the kit.

Normal TBI pressures that I've measured have been between 12 - 14 PSI.

dave w

 

[Clod_King]

Another question!! hahaha.

Pin A of the ALDL is a black/white wire. It went to a common splice of a bunch of black/white wires. But my schemaitc book says it goes to the insturment panel...

Is that just a ground wire? Can I just ground it to the dash, or firewall??

 

[dave w]

Pin A of the ALDL is a black/white wire. It went to a common splice of a bunch of black/white wires. But my schemaitc book says it goes to the insturment panel...

Is that just a ground wire? Can I just ground it to the dash, or firewall??

I'm using a wiring diagram for 1989 C/K Pickups ... but I think the Suburban should be the same.

ALDL Pin A is a black wire with a white stripe ... which is grounded to the chassis. The dash should be OK as a chassis ground. If the engine has been replaced, make sure there is a bare copper braided wire connected from the engine block (usually rear passenger side head) to the fire wall. The bare copper braided wire will connect the dash to chassis ground. Chassis ground is also connected to the NEGATIVE ( - ) terminal of the battery.

dave w

 

[Clod_King]

You come through yet again Dave. I have some more questions.

Do I need the VSS wire hooked up to successfully data log with a laptop??

 

[dave w]

Do I need the VSS wire hooked up to successfully data log with a laptop??

The park / neutral switch wire (orange wire with black stripe - ECM B10) needs to be grounded (to chassis ground). With the park / neutral switch grounded the ECM thinks the vehicle is in Park or Neutral and the input from the VSS is not used by the ECM when the engine is running.

Data logging will still work without the VSS connected. Data logging will still work with the Park / Neutral switch NOT grounded. I think it is still best to ground the Park / Neutral switch wire, just to make sure the data logs are correct.

dave w

 

[Clod_King]

I am gonna try something here.

I had already pulled the bezel out of my truck to try and hook up the VSS. And then I read your post. So I went outside and compared the 89' bezel from my sub, to the 85' bezel I just pulled.

The layout is almost exact... Except for one wire. The 85' bezel has a dark blue wire, while the 89' wire has a black one. I'm hoping that they have the same duty.

I am going to use my 89' bezel because it will let me use the VSS wire. I just have to hook it up again. I thought for sure the park/neutral wire hooked up there aswell, but apparently not, so whatever.

Is there going to be a problem with this setup? I am gonna try it out tonight anyways...

 

[dave w]

I am gonna try something here.

I had already pulled the bezel out of my truck to try and hook up the VSS. And then I read your post. So I went outside and compared the 89' bezel from my sub, to the 85' bezel I just pulled.

The layout is almost exact... Except for one wire. The 85' bezel has a dark blue wire, while the 89' wire has a black one. I'm hoping that they have the same duty.

I am going to use my 89' bezel because it will let me use the VSS wire. I just have to hook it up again. I thought for sure the park/neutral wire hooked up there aswell, but apparently not, so whatever.

Is there going to be a problem with this setup? I am gonna try it out tonight anyways...

I only have the wiring diagram for the 89 C/K ECM ... I don't have a complete vehicle wiring diagram. Sorry

 

[dyeager535]

Whats the deal with the "VSS" wire?

Both the '85 and '89 should be setup for cable VSS, but no power/output comes from the instruments for VSS.

FYI on the ground, should be a buss bar on the upper portion of the kickpanel with grounds clipped to it from the factory. I routed any under dash grounds I had to add to that location.