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MaxPF's 6.2 build

Max how accurate do you think the number for the stock ratio of 1.5 is? I ask because on the caddy I'm doing the factory manual lists my rocker ratio as 1.72. Every time I measure them I get between 1.6 and 1.65. So what I was wondering is did GM do the same thing there too.

And how much duration is the cam you are going to use have? If the cam is fairly tame on the duration you could run the 1.7 without any trouble. And that could get you some extra power.

George
 
smalltruckbigcid said:
Max how accurate do you think the number for the stock ratio of 1.5 is? I ask because on the caddy I'm doing the factory manual lists my rocker ratio as 1.72. Every time I measure them I get between 1.6 and 1.65. So what I was wondering is did GM do the same thing there too.

And how much duration is the cam you are going to use have? If the cam is fairly tame on the duration you could run the 1.7 without any trouble. And that could get you some extra power.

George
The 1.5 number came straight from the GM manual. I don't know how much duration the cam has. It is the stock cam, and I do know it has a wide lobe seperation angle for minimal lift at overlap - there isn't much choice given the 6.2/6.5's nonexistant clearance at TDC.

I found that Comp Cams makes stainless steel 1.6 ratio rockers for BBC apps, so I'm in good shape. I also created another problem by choosing to use larger OD valve springs. Stock 6.2/6.5 exhaust valve rotators are too small to fit the larger diameter springs I am going to use. I discussed this with my machinist and he suggested using BBC valve rotators. Unlike the diesel rotators which replace regular retainers, the BBC rotators go under the spring, and they are large enough in diameter to accomodate the springs I bought. One more problem solved :cool:
 
More top end goodies

Let's see what we have here:

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Comp Cams Pro Magnum 1.7:1 BBC rocker arms. The local speed shop had 'em cheap ($60 less than Summit!), so I got 'em. They will be mounted on custom pedestal mounts. I got these instead of the 1.6:1 stainless steel rockers because they were less money (about $100 less), just as strong, and the 1.6's are actually longer, which may have caused some interference issues. The only drawback with the 1.7's is that I will gain .056" lift, which could potentially cause piston-to-valve clearance issues. I will check it before I have the heads done, and if it is a problem I will simply have the valves sunk in the heads a bit. This would actually be desirable since it would drop the compression a bit :wink1:

I am hoping to get the block and rotating assembly back this weekend. If not then it will be the following weekend. Once I do I will take lots of pics :D
 
I got it back!

I got the block and rotating assembly back from the machine shop.
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Here's some pics:

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The first thing I did was to thoroughly cleaned the block with a solution of laundry detergent, simple green, and hot water. Then it got dried with compressed air and WD-40's to prevent rust.The next step was to torque the mains in place and measure the ID's with a dial bore gauge:

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The machinist already checked the line bore and pronounced it sound, but I believe in double checking everything. I have also measured the main and rod journals on my new GM crank. The main journals are right at the high limit, while the rod journals are in the middle of the spec range. Hopefully the mains will have enough clearance, otherwise, I will have to get a set of ,001 oversize bearings. I will install the mains tomorrow and measuring the ID with a dial bore to determine how much clearance I have. If everything goes well I can install the crank in it's permanent home.
 
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Thanks!

I forgot, I also threw the pan on to check fitment:

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I didn't get a front-view pic, but the pan is about 2.5" above the pan rail. It looks lik eI will definitely need more :hack: and :grind: to get it to fit. From the looks of it I can probably just grind a bit more off of the corners of the girdle and it should drop in. Then I can fit new metal on the pan to clear the studs.

One interesting note: upon cutting the pan I discovered it is made of a double layer of betal sandwiched together. This is normally done for noise rediction - the combustion knock won't radiate as easily through the sandwiched layer of metal. This complicates the mod a bit because it means the pan will need to be welded on the inside as well as outside to prevent oil from seeping between the two layers of metal.

Or I could go with my other idea and build a super pan out of 3/16" steel. No skidplate needed!
 
BKinzey said:
To clear the studs? I don't see it. Where will the studs hit the pan?:confused:

They won't now that I have cut the pan away. Before they hit on the front part where it slopes towards the timing cover. In the pics above the pan is still a few inches above the block surface due to interference with the girdle.
 
More progress

Here's what I did today:

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I put the main bearings in place, torqued the caps back down, and measured the bearing ID's with my trusty dial bore. The spec for the 6.2 and 6.5 is .0018" to .0033" clearance for 1-4 and about a half-thou more for #5 (.0022 to .0038 IIRC). Mine measured .003-.0031 for #1-3, .0027 for #4, and .0035 for #5. These are all within spec. I could have got a set of .001" undersized bearings and used a .001 undersized upper with a standard lower to reduce the clearance by .0005" on 1-3 and 5, but I don't need to since they ARE in spec and I am using a high volume 97-up oil pump. Besides, I didn't feel like spending $60 on a set of main bearings that would effectively get thrown away (half the spandard set and half the .001 under set wouldn't be used), and if you have the oil volume then bearings a bit on the high (loose) side are preferable.

Once I verified the clearances are OK I moved on to the crank. It was basically ready, except I wanted to polish up the rod journals a bit. They were a bit hazy from sitting for such a long time. I used the method outlined in the Chevrolet Power Manual, where you cut a piece of fine grit sandpaper (1200 grit is what I used) to fit the width of the journal, wrap it around tight, and use a piece of masking tape to hold the overlapped edge. Then you wrap a thong (like a piece of thin rope, not an undergarment :D) made of leather (or in my case vinyl tubing) once around it and work it back and forth rapidly about 20 times. It takes all of a minute to do one journal and it makes it look like a mirror. The mains already got hit with the polishing belt by the machinist after he balanced the crank, so they didn't need to be messed with. I cleaned the crank with brakleen and it was good to go.

I also polished the journals on the cam with 1200 grit. One lobe had a ding on the outer edge where the roller would probably never touch it, but I removed it with a fine grinding stone. I also used 400 grit on the oil pump drive gear teeth to smooth away the wear marks from it's previous life. It can make new ones in this motor :wink1:.

All that was left was to use plenty of assembly lube (a moly paste lube in my case - I wanted something thick and clingy that will stay put over time since it will be a few more months before the engine fires) on the cam and plug it in. Then I lubed up the main bearings and got ready to install the upper main seal half when I discovered that my cheeze-whiz-can of Ultra Black was MIA :doah: I ended up making a trip down to Autozone, and all they had were squeeze tubes of UB :(. Anyway, I finally got back to it, I use a small amount of UB in the seal groove in the block and cap, and a VERY thin, almost nonexistant amoint on the parting faces of the seal. The seal gets installed offset in order to align the rear cap:

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You notice in that pic you can't see the silicone on the parting face of the seal. It is THIN, thin enough that it won't ooze out when you tighten the cap, but enough to prevent oil from working it's way out between the surfaces. If a tiny amount should ooze out the oil that I put on the crank's seal surface will prevent it from sticking. I have done this numerous times and haven't had a seal leak yet. Finally, I used a really thin, narrow bead of UB from the seal to the cap register on each side. The book says to use "anaerobic sealant part # xxxxx, but I have found good ole UB works fine. Finally, I dropped the crank in place, installed the caps, tapped 'em in place with a plastic-faced hammer, tapped the crank forward and back with said hammer to align the thrust bearings, and torqued em up.

Despite using studs in place of the stock bolts and having a girdle in place the main bores on my block didn't need to be align bored, but I had to follow a strict torqueing sequence in order to keep the bores round as they are tightened. Using ARP moly lube I torqued the inner bolts starting with cap 1 and going to 5 in three stages until I finished at 90 ft/lbs. Then the girdles were put in place and the outers torqued in the same sequence to 80 ft/lbs. Finally the crank is in it's permanent home. A quick check showed .005-.006" end play, which is in spec. Here's the pics:

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Both the cam and crank spin freely, although the assembly paste makes it feel like you are spinning 'em in molasses. Next step is to make sure the rings, which are preassembled on the pistons by Mahle (and you really don't want to try to take them off) are gapped properly, install the pistons on the rods, and stuff 'em in the holes.

Stay tuned :D
 
mudman83 said:
It has been over a week. I am dying for an update.:D

I haven't really had the time to do much. I did get all the core plugs installed, and I installed the cam gear drive and drive gear for the IP. Those gear drives are the shiznit, but you already knew that :wink1:

Oh, I also scored a hair dryer for it. It's a Garret T04B S-trim with a divided tangential turbine housing. It came off some old IH diesel, and despite being very well used the compressor wheel, turbine, shaft, and housings are in rebuildable shape. I will probably replace the compressor wheel anyway since they aren't very expensine, and of course it will get new bearings and such. I already have a DeltaGate MkII from a previous project, and a buddy has a boost bonnet for the intake, so I pretty much have everything I need to turbo the motor :waytogo:
 
It looks to me the girdle is higher than the studs, that's why I questioned it:confused: No matter, you are there and I am not:bow:

Another question about rocker arms. If you had gone with the 1.7 roller bearing arms could you have just swapped shorter pushrods?

I pretty much have to keep with "bolt-on" solutions. Any machining would have to be done by someone else and I can't afford the $$$.

My situation is this. The 6.5 I bought was rebuilt less than 7,000 miles ago. The key (woodruff:dunno:, half circle) which drives the IP sheared off making it run like poop. The owner gave up and began parting the truck out and didn't find the sheared key until after he pulled the engine and sold the turbo & IP. From everything I see the rebuild is good and I am taking the chance it is. I've pulled the oil pan & the heads but don't want to go any further so that limits my options.

I'm learning a lot from this thread:D:waytogo:
 
BKinzey said:
It looks to me the girdle is higher than the studs, that's why I questioned it:confused: No matter, you are there and I am not:bow:

Another question about rocker arms. If you had gone with the 1.7 roller bearing arms could you have just swapped shorter pushrods?

I pretty much have to keep with "bolt-on" solutions. Any machining would have to be done by someone else and I can't afford the $$$.

My situation is this. The 6.5 I bought was rebuilt less than 7,000 miles ago. The key (woodruff:dunno:, half circle) which drives the IP sheared off making it run like poop. The owner gave up and began parting the truck out and didn't find the sheared key until after he pulled the engine and sold the turbo & IP. From everything I see the rebuild is good and I am taking the chance it is. I've pulled the oil pan & the heads but don't want to go any further so that limits my options.

I'm learning a lot from this thread:D:waytogo:
Actually, I did end up going with the 1.7:1 rockers. The pushrod length only affects the geometry that the rocker operates under - it doesn't alter how much lift it gives. A shorter pushrod can help with clearance issues since it will drop the rocker down away from the valve cover, but you can't go too far before you end up with rocker to retainer and/or geometry issues.

In any case, no rocker setup besides stock is a bolt-on for the 6.2/6.5. Any aftermarket rocker setup will require machining. In the case of the BB 1.7's I am using I have to machine pedestal mounts and I have to machine the existing shaft bosses shorter. Once all that is done, then it will be a bolt-on :D
 
Update: More stuff done

Now that my hunting trip is over I have been able to get back to working on the 6.2.

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I also got another goodie. I had already scored a T4 turbo, but I think this may give faster spool up:

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One issue I have: the pistons pop up further out of the holes than I had anticipated. A bit of research revealed that, while people commonly assume the 6.2 and 6.5 have the same stroke, this is not the case. The 6.5 has a .020" longer stroke (3.820" vs 3.800") than the 6.2. Since I used a 6.5 crank, this causes the pistons to sit an extra .010" higher out of the hole. In this case, the pistons sit .020" above the deck at TDC. The solution is .010" thicker head gaskets to give enough piston-to-head clearance, and adjusting the depth of the valve seats to drop the compression to the 20:1 that I am looking for. Piece of cake :D

Next step: work on fitting the oil pan and get the heads to the machine shop.
 
Nice build MaxPF...Any chance you might make more of those stud girdles? I would love to have one of those in my next build.
 
Nope. Nobody would pay what it would cost to build them.:eek1:

I was thinking the same thing.
How much?
You would be surprised sometimes how much people would pay for a good part.
Look at you...:D
 
I've talked to by friend who CNC'd mine, and he is figuring out what a pair would cost. I can tell you it will be $$$ - whittling down a piece of 1.5"x1.5 takes a bit of time. If he can find 11xx series material for the same price as 10xx, then it might be less (11xx is a resulfurized "free-machining" steel - it cuts much faster than 10xx series and doesn't wear out tools nearly as fast).

For those who have the resources to roll their own, here is the blueprint for the left-side girdle. The right side is simply a mirror image. Also, the print doesn't show it, but the corners on the girdle that sit in the corners on the caps need to be chamfered to clear the radius on the caps. One caveat: the stock pan will NOT fit over this girdle. You will have to radius the front of the girdles (see my pics in previous posts) either have to modify the pan or build a custom pan. I am trying to mod my pan, but it is made of 2 layers of sandwiched metal with (apparently) a coating of some kind between them. It contaminates the welds, and I may not be able to get good clean (and leak-free) welds on it. I will keep everyone updated on my success or failure. If it won't weld cleanly I plan on fabricating a pan from aluminum sheet. The other option is to eliminate the part of the girdle in front of the #2 bulkhead. However, the rear corners still need to be angled (that isn't shown in the prints either, but it is in my pics), and you will still need to figure out how to make the dipstick clear (I plan on simply moving the dipstick tube lower in the pan). No matter what, it is a PITA. I still think it is worth it, though :D

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