here is a pic at full droop btw
CK5
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Most flexable?
- Thread starter truggy
- Start date
GEORGIA GABE
1/2 ton status
Odin... you are headed down the same road you crashed on over on pirate. You point out that I run leaf springs... I applaud your research, however I think you assume that my rig is the only experiance I have. This would be a mistake. What I run is a function of what I know works well on my truck. One day when the frame is completly trashed I will build a center section of frame and link it... but that is one day, and when that day comes I will be consulting many close friends to help me figure out what will work best.
Your arrogance leads you to instantly try and bash me instead of seeing what I had written for what it was... A warning to those who think you know what you are talking about. You dont!
As to what I know, and who these friends of mine are that I consult, lets see... How about Bill Durham #360 WeRock stock mod (orange), ScottyBobbie from SBC (red buggy), Brad Kellog (pink scout)... ect.
the moral of the story Odin is you dont know what I know, you could assume that because I drive a chevy truck every day that I dont know anything about classic cars. You would be wrong. You could assume that since I wheel a truck with TBI that I dont know a damn thing about Carbs. You would be wrong. You could assume that since I wheel a k5 I know nothing about jeeps... you would be wrong... ect ect ect.
well ill admit i dont know anything about building a 4 link or really wanna know..i wanted mine done right so i sent it up to 1-tonmudders shop...tangentdesignoffroad.com
shamless plug for thoose guys
ok back to the catfight
shamless plug for thoose guys
ok back to the catfight
GEORGIA GABE
1/2 ton status
well ill admit i dont know anything about building a 4 link or really wanna know..i wanted mine done right so i sent it up to 1-tonmudders shop...tangentdesignoffroad.com
shamless plug for thoose guys
ok back to the catfight
it looks good man!...
catfight?... did you just call me a pussy?! jk...
A leaf sprung suspension will never perform like a well setup link suspension and that has nothing to do with flex. You can get plenty of flex from either one.
The change in my buggy was night and day when I switched from leafs to coils.
odin
1/2 ton status
Well Gabe take into consideration you may also be wrong.
Im no noob when it comes to trucks musclecars quads etc etc either.
Im an ASE master tech by trade with nearly 20 years professional experience.
That doesnt make me an expert, but it doenst make me a dipsh*t.
Im not the only guy who has run this type of suspension with success.
http://www.coloradok5.com/coilover.shtml
And for the record Steve mounted his lower link to the stock trans/tranfer crossmember.
I mounted mine to 2 custom built 2x3 .25 wall X members.
Im no noob when it comes to trucks musclecars quads etc etc either.
Im an ASE master tech by trade with nearly 20 years professional experience.
That doesnt make me an expert, but it doenst make me a dipsh*t.
Im not the only guy who has run this type of suspension with success.
http://www.coloradok5.com/coilover.shtml
And for the record Steve mounted his lower link to the stock trans/tranfer crossmember.
I mounted mine to 2 custom built 2x3 .25 wall X members.
GEORGIA GABE
1/2 ton status
ASE means nothing to me.. my mother could pass most of the tests... I have hired and fired more "ASE Master Techs" than I care to remember.
Lets not mislead anyone, you mounted your lower to the stock crossmember until so many people screamed "your gonna die" that you changed it. As your setup is now I dont think you will kill yourself, however as far as link suspensions go yours is about the worst setup I have ever seen.
one more question, what ASE certs do you have that have anything to do with design of link suspension?
Also the fact that you are not a "noob" and still fabbed some of the worst suspension designs that I have ever seen does not speak well. Just because you have been doing something for a while does not mean you are doing it correctly.
odin
1/2 ton status
OK I'll bite.
Gabe in your opinion what would be a wise choice for a link suspension in the front of a full size Chevy/GMC such as mine?
Stipulations being.....dual purpose rig wiht mechanical steering and coils.
Gabe in your opinion what would be a wise choice for a link suspension in the front of a full size Chevy/GMC such as mine?
Stipulations being.....dual purpose rig wiht mechanical steering and coils.
when i do my front its gonna micmich my rear except im gonna use 2.5 air shocks
gabe you should come to harlan with us in june...
ok my hijack off now seriously lol
ok my hijack off now seriously lol
not to get into the middle of anything, but:
can properly setup 4link setups perform extremely well on/off road: yes
are link/coil setups generally more expensive than leaf spring setups: yes*
*i spent about $1,200 on my double triangulated 4link rear setup for everything using top quality parts (my 8 johnny joints cost ~$450 alone!) and lots of research on pirate, which has much more link suspension tech than here. i'm in no way a know-it-all about link setups, but me and a buddy (whose built a couple link setups on our friends jeeps) thought everything out and ran several calculators to get the numbers and geometry we wanted.
i havent looked much into a front link setup, besides what my buddy runs on his cherokee, but i do know they are much more in-depth, so i have no info to contribute for that, besides to lots of research.
can a well thought out leaf spring setup keep up with/out perform a link setup: yes
i sold the link setup to protechk5 on here and we are going to be swapping it onto his k30 this week. on my rig now, im back with the tried and true leafs front and rear (52's up front and 64's out back). if i was to ever go a link setup again, it would be with coilovers for sure. i dont get to drive/wheel my rig enough to justify the $ for the link setup, so for now the leafs will work for me
ps. gabe does know what hes talkin about
can properly setup 4link setups perform extremely well on/off road: yes
are link/coil setups generally more expensive than leaf spring setups: yes*
*i spent about $1,200 on my double triangulated 4link rear setup for everything using top quality parts (my 8 johnny joints cost ~$450 alone!) and lots of research on pirate, which has much more link suspension tech than here. i'm in no way a know-it-all about link setups, but me and a buddy (whose built a couple link setups on our friends jeeps) thought everything out and ran several calculators to get the numbers and geometry we wanted.
i havent looked much into a front link setup, besides what my buddy runs on his cherokee, but i do know they are much more in-depth, so i have no info to contribute for that, besides to lots of research.
can a well thought out leaf spring setup keep up with/out perform a link setup: yes
i sold the link setup to protechk5 on here and we are going to be swapping it onto his k30 this week. on my rig now, im back with the tried and true leafs front and rear (52's up front and 64's out back). if i was to ever go a link setup again, it would be with coilovers for sure. i dont get to drive/wheel my rig enough to justify the $ for the link setup, so for now the leafs will work for me
ps. gabe does know what hes talkin about
GEORGIA GABE
1/2 ton status
Odin, I know when I am being baited... but I'll play
Note: this is a simplified explination that will not deal with roll axis, instant center, anti squat ect.
First thing that has to be done is to examine the forces exerted on the vehicle that the links have to deal with. Also what is the goal of the suspension, Flex, stability at speed ect.
Forces:
Durring acceleration or braking the axle will want to rotate on its own axis
when off camber the suspension has to deal with side loads that want to push the axle sideways out from under the truck
The suspension setup that you chose was a three link with the single link being on the bottom. Including a Panhard bar.
I have no problem with three link suspensions as long as they are designed and build proplerly. The reason that the lowers are usually the two links and the upper the one is simple. The force trying to rotate the axle under hard braking is much more than that of the vehicle trying to accelerate. When braking the lower links are put into compression and the upper link is put into tension. By splitting the force between the two lowers the stress on them is reduced greatly. The other important aspect of this is vertical separation of the links at the axle a minimum is 25% of your tire diameter.
(Triangulation.... funny how often that word is used. It always seems to come into play when someone is speaking of overcoming a force.)
Since there is no real triangulation in your three link setup all the side load force is put on your Panhard bar. You are depending on it entirely to keep the axle in place side to side.
There are many options better than your current setup, the simplest of which is a radius arm. If I were building a rig that had to be driven daily, tow, carry my family safely then that is the route that I would proably go.
Now lets examine a radius arm setup that would work on a truck such as you have with the stipulations that you presented of coil springs and non hydro steering ( crossover of course ).
continued shortly...
GEORGIA GABE
1/2 ton status
Ok, Radius arm suspension for the front...
here is a picture of basically what I would do as far as the links go.
note that there is good vertical separation between the lower and upper mount points. Also there is some triangulation gained by the upper mount being inboard of the lower mount. The radius arms also mount to the frame inboard of where they mount to the axle. This produces an increased measure of resistance to side loads. That in turn reduces the stress that the panhard bar has to take.
Odin, as I said in our pm's I applaud you for going against the grain, but sometimes you have to accept that there is a reason that most people build things a certain way. I did not intend this to become a pissing match between us, I just cant sit by and let you tell people that yours is a good way to do it. I cant take the chance that they dont know any better.
any questions just post up and I will do my best to answer.
gabe
here is a picture of basically what I would do as far as the links go.
note that there is good vertical separation between the lower and upper mount points. Also there is some triangulation gained by the upper mount being inboard of the lower mount. The radius arms also mount to the frame inboard of where they mount to the axle. This produces an increased measure of resistance to side loads. That in turn reduces the stress that the panhard bar has to take.
Odin, as I said in our pm's I applaud you for going against the grain, but sometimes you have to accept that there is a reason that most people build things a certain way. I did not intend this to become a pissing match between us, I just cant sit by and let you tell people that yours is a good way to do it. I cant take the chance that they dont know any better.
any questions just post up and I will do my best to answer.
gabe
GEORGIA GABE
1/2 ton status
a quote from the link that Odin posted.
"The ideal three link set up would have two links on the bottom and one center link on top of the axle." -Steve Frisbie
also some good information on link suspensions can be found at
http://www.muddtanks.com/4LinkSuspArticle.htm
I actually used one of his pictures in the post above... Im so glad I remembered it, because I was about to draw one.
also the books recomended in the article are excellent.
Chassis Engineering by Herb Adams
Fundamentals of Vehicle Dynamics by Thomas D. Gillespie
Race Car Vehicle Dynamics by Milliken and Milliken.
"The ideal three link set up would have two links on the bottom and one center link on top of the axle." -Steve Frisbie
also some good information on link suspensions can be found at
http://www.muddtanks.com/4LinkSuspArticle.htm
I actually used one of his pictures in the post above... Im so glad I remembered it, because I was about to draw one.
also the books recomended in the article are excellent.
Chassis Engineering by Herb Adams
Fundamentals of Vehicle Dynamics by Thomas D. Gillespie
Race Car Vehicle Dynamics by Milliken and Milliken.
odin
1/2 ton status
Gabe,
All of these points you are addressing came up on Pirate.
I have nearly 11 inches of verticle seperation at the axle, which as you stated should help overcome tire rotational forces.
Nearly all 3 links are parallel (non-triangulated) so mine is no different in that regard.
A three link with 2 lowers would be better, but given the limited space under a Chevy truck (engine headers etc) there is no room near the center of the rig for the upper link.
It never made sense to me to mount a single upper of to one side.
As far as braking forces acting on a single lower link, its my understanding that some heavy duty vehicles have a single link type suspension. So mine having 2 uppers should address some of those forces.
A radius arm suspension would have been easier and I planned to change to that if I wasnt happy with this.
But it works.
All of these points you are addressing came up on Pirate.
I have nearly 11 inches of verticle seperation at the axle, which as you stated should help overcome tire rotational forces.
Nearly all 3 links are parallel (non-triangulated) so mine is no different in that regard.
A three link with 2 lowers would be better, but given the limited space under a Chevy truck (engine headers etc) there is no room near the center of the rig for the upper link.
It never made sense to me to mount a single upper of to one side.
As far as braking forces acting on a single lower link, its my understanding that some heavy duty vehicles have a single link type suspension. So mine having 2 uppers should address some of those forces.
A radius arm suspension would have been easier and I planned to change to that if I wasnt happy with this.
But it works.
73redblaze
1/2 ton status
i know nothing about designing a link set up so im in way over my head here but what i do know is guys with thousands in there linked suspension have been out performed by my truck. might just be the driver. thats my 2 cents. back to the fight.
Ok, Radius arm suspension for the front...
here is a picture of basically what I would do as far as the links go.
note that there is good vertical separation between the lower and upper mount points. Also there is some triangulation gained by the upper mount being inboard of the lower mount.
Sure, but what's the anti-dive percentage? Its gonna be a big number.
If there are joints at each end of the link, I don't think this is true.
Anyway, radius arms are not the greatest setup. If I were to design a front link suspension it would be a three or four link.
Don't get me wrong, radius arms can work ok (my brother's TJ has them on the front and it does fine) but its not the design I would choose.
odin
1/2 ton status
I have seen radius arms in use on a few full size rigs and in most cases the owners are less than thrilled with the performance.
Radius arms inherently bind...because the only pivot point is at the frame.
Unless super squishy bushings are used at the axle, which would require constant replacement.
come to the east coast and fight hopping with leaves and horrible axle wrap...nothing wrong with west coast wheeling id love to try it but the east coast will make a man outta ya when u have NO TRACTION WHAT SO EVER
GEORGIA GABE
1/2 ton status
Radius arms would not be my first choice, but I also would not resign myself to no hydro or coilovers ect. I think that the design lends itself to simplicity in execution. Its not the best by any means, but I have seen many jeeps perform very well with this setup.
As to the three link, Like I said it is not a bad design when done correctly. And that includes triangulation Odin... here is a picture similar to how I would set up a three link. Note the triangulation.
If you were to look at this from below it would look like this. Note the triangulation. lower links are red and upper is green
Now the way that odin has his setup
As to the three link, Like I said it is not a bad design when done correctly. And that includes triangulation Odin... here is a picture similar to how I would set up a three link. Note the triangulation.
If you were to look at this from below it would look like this. Note the triangulation. lower links are red and upper is green
Now the way that odin has his setup
