Mudstud
1/2 ton status
No spring swap. Standard Superlift 6" front springs. I'm at work now so can't see which pics you are reffering to. Plan on looking into this again over the 3 day weekend.
CK5
Register an account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members.
NON HYDRO ASSIST DANA 60 crossover people
- Thread starter Mudstud
- Start date
Any luck with this?
deadlew
1/2 ton status
I have a question for you. Measure the length of your pitman arm (sector shaft center to tie rod end center) and the the cross over arm length (king pin center to tie rod end center). You could have a problem with cross over arm being to long or the pitman arm being to short. If you have another hole on the cross over arm closer to the king pin center try installing the drag link in that hole.
PaulC
PaulC
Mudstud
1/2 ton status
As much as I wanted to get out there this past 3 day weekend, I didn't/couldn't. I WILL THIS WEEKEND.
I do have another hole to put it in- and you can quote me on that
- and it seems I did a test fit but seemed to not get as much turn. I have thought of the possibility that the pitman arm might be too long or short but never thought about the NWFab crossover arm being too long/short. Stick with me guys, I'll get into it this weekend.
I do have another hole to put it in- and you can quote me on that
- and it seems I did a test fit but seemed to not get as much turn. I have thought of the possibility that the pitman arm might be too long or short but never thought about the NWFab crossover arm being too long/short. Stick with me guys, I'll get into it this weekend.deadlew
1/2 ton status
If it is a problem with the pitman arm it is probably too short, and if it is a problem with the cross over arm it is probably too long.
PaulC
PaulC
Mudstud
1/2 ton status
I measured what you told me to last night. From center of sector straight out 90* to hole in pitman is about 6.5"
The dragkink is in the forward most hole in arm. From center of kingpin to center of forward most hole is about 7"-7 1/8"
It is 5" to the rear most hole.
As a reminder of what it's doing now from post number 27
"As instructed- the results are;
LEFT
It will turn all the way left on the ground but the pump is stressing and it seems to max out the gear box plus it moves the axle to the side before it reaches the stop (because it’s pushing the axle aside). The frame flex at the shackles is apparent while under stress. I wouldn’t want to run it like this.
RIGHT
Seems good.
This is where I left it. Anything you guys suggest will be done from this current set up."
So I guess now it's a question of whether or not a different crossover or pitman arm might correct this.
I'd be curious to hear from you guys if the distance from center of king pin to DL hole and center of sector shaft to DL hole are the same on your rigs with flawless steering.
Nvrenuf-
That drag link end is different from the NWF kit- lil story there. Under the advice of a member here I opted to purchase the moog ends myself because he told me they cost the same as in the kit but I'd get a lifetime warranty with them. Well, that isn't the case exactly but thats another story. Once I got the arm and DL from NWF I purchased the ends with the part numbers NWF told me to use. It turns out that the length of the TREs (threaded shaft) varies from production run to production run, even under the same brand and I didn't know that at the time. Turns out, apparently, that NWF does change the length of their DL based on the length of the threaded shaft on the ends they get in. I bought the ends as instructed and since the threaded shaft was only like 2.5" long I couldn't get enough threaded rod inside the DL to work safely. When I called about this and we compared lengths of ends the ones they we're selling with the kit were like 3.5" long. Basically- I had too short of a DL using these short ends. I could have sent the DL back at my expense and waited for a few weeks to get another one (they were outta stock on the long shaft TREs and didn't thank they'd get anymore of the long ones in). I talked to the guy at Parts Mike and he suggested I simply swap out one end for that end you are asking about. That got me the extra length I seemed to need. I did have to ream the pitman arm out but that was a relatively cheap and easy thing to have done. So that's why I have an odd end. Sorry so long.
The dragkink is in the forward most hole in arm. From center of kingpin to center of forward most hole is about 7"-7 1/8"
It is 5" to the rear most hole.
As a reminder of what it's doing now from post number 27
"As instructed- the results are;
LEFT
It will turn all the way left on the ground but the pump is stressing and it seems to max out the gear box plus it moves the axle to the side before it reaches the stop (because it’s pushing the axle aside). The frame flex at the shackles is apparent while under stress. I wouldn’t want to run it like this.
RIGHT
Seems good.
This is where I left it. Anything you guys suggest will be done from this current set up."
So I guess now it's a question of whether or not a different crossover or pitman arm might correct this.
I'd be curious to hear from you guys if the distance from center of king pin to DL hole and center of sector shaft to DL hole are the same on your rigs with flawless steering.
Nvrenuf-
That drag link end is different from the NWF kit- lil story there. Under the advice of a member here I opted to purchase the moog ends myself because he told me they cost the same as in the kit but I'd get a lifetime warranty with them. Well, that isn't the case exactly but thats another story. Once I got the arm and DL from NWF I purchased the ends with the part numbers NWF told me to use. It turns out that the length of the TREs (threaded shaft) varies from production run to production run, even under the same brand and I didn't know that at the time. Turns out, apparently, that NWF does change the length of their DL based on the length of the threaded shaft on the ends they get in. I bought the ends as instructed and since the threaded shaft was only like 2.5" long I couldn't get enough threaded rod inside the DL to work safely. When I called about this and we compared lengths of ends the ones they we're selling with the kit were like 3.5" long. Basically- I had too short of a DL using these short ends. I could have sent the DL back at my expense and waited for a few weeks to get another one (they were outta stock on the long shaft TREs and didn't thank they'd get anymore of the long ones in). I talked to the guy at Parts Mike and he suggested I simply swap out one end for that end you are asking about. That got me the extra length I seemed to need. I did have to ream the pitman arm out but that was a relatively cheap and easy thing to have done. So that's why I have an odd end. Sorry so long.
Mudstud
1/2 ton status
Maybe I have just a tad too long of DL now. IIRC at full right turn on axle and box the DL can't adjust short enough to simply drop in the holes- It is very close- less then 1/4". You think that could be a problem?
At this point is just seems odd that I can get it to go left pretty good but it stresses the pump and flexes the frame and slides the axle to the side to do it.
At this point is just seems odd that I can get it to go left pretty good but it stresses the pump and flexes the frame and slides the axle to the side to do it.
deadlew
1/2 ton status
Sounds like your drag link is too long and it may need shortened. Here is what I would do, remove the drag link, set your tires straight ahead. Set the pitman arm in the center of its swing. Measure the distance between the pitman arm taper hole and the taper hole on the cross over arm and then compair it to your drag link. You should have at least an inch of thread showing on both DREs when the drag link is adjusted to the proper length (the length you measured between the pitman arm and cross over arm). Let us know your findings.
PaulC
PaulC
jimmy88
1/2 ton status
Can you post a picture of the steering arm/draglink at full left lock (or as far as it goes)?
On my ORD crossover steering arms the correct hole for the drag link end is the one CLOSEST to the kingpin - try that yet?
Jason4x4
1/2 ton status
thats your problem. if the draglink is to long you will not be able to turn full lock left without the distance between the box and the steering knuckle changing. thats why the axle is moving.
Mudstud
1/2 ton status
Been doing things to this fricker. I see why my springs have been fanning out. My driver side front spring perch has begun to collapse. Easy to see why, the freakin shim that Superlift uses isn't wide enough, putting undue stress on the perch where there is no support.
I drove it some more today and I am pleased with the steering as it is- but wouldn't want to run it like this cuz of the stress on the frame. I have to roll a tad to allow it to turn all the way but there is still the tendancy to push the axle aside when going left. Makes some stress popping sounds doing it. The box isn't moving at all, the knuckles aren't moving at all. The steering arm isn't moving. I will do the measurements like one of you guys suggested and post up. I diconnected the draglink and the tires turn easily all the way lock to lock so there is no obstruction within the knuckles.
Thanks again.
I have pics of the perch. Will post up later.
I drove it some more today and I am pleased with the steering as it is- but wouldn't want to run it like this cuz of the stress on the frame. I have to roll a tad to allow it to turn all the way but there is still the tendancy to push the axle aside when going left. Makes some stress popping sounds doing it. The box isn't moving at all, the knuckles aren't moving at all. The steering arm isn't moving. I will do the measurements like one of you guys suggested and post up. I diconnected the draglink and the tires turn easily all the way lock to lock so there is no obstruction within the knuckles.
Thanks again.
I have pics of the perch. Will post up later.
Mudstud
1/2 ton status
OK so I reread most of this thread and, after finishing up tegh perch repair I still need to do the following.
I’m hoping that the spring perch fix might make a huge difference in this situation. The way the lift spring was angled out means that the steering had to fight it going left all the way (read- pushing against the arc of the spring and therefore lifting the truck the more it turned against it. The spring was 4* off from flat. Tonight or tomorrow night I hope to finish getting it welded in place and see if there is a difference. Trying to get ready for a ride this Saturday.
Things I need to try.
Measure dist between pitman hole and arm hole with all centered.
Turn all left and
Turn all right and measure that distance.
I’d like to remind you of the radius swing of the pitman and kingpin. I have yet to measure the degrees that each swings. From center of sector straight out 90* to hole in pitman is about 6.5"
The dragkink is in the forward most hole in arm. From center of kingpin to center of forward most hole is about 7"-7 1/8"
It is 5" to the rear most hole. Not sure what this info means- do I need a different pitman arm to try and even up the swing on each end?
Need to try the other hole on arm even though that seems like it’ll really throw off the above measured swing.
Pics of the perch.
This is 3/4" plate with 3/16 and 1/8 plate welded under it to get it to the right height. This goes between the old pieces still welded to the axle and sits right on the axle tube. I'll cut some pieces to go on the front and back to give it more support and offer some places to weld. Justthought I'd share.
I’m hoping that the spring perch fix might make a huge difference in this situation. The way the lift spring was angled out means that the steering had to fight it going left all the way (read- pushing against the arc of the spring and therefore lifting the truck the more it turned against it. The spring was 4* off from flat. Tonight or tomorrow night I hope to finish getting it welded in place and see if there is a difference. Trying to get ready for a ride this Saturday.
Things I need to try.
Measure dist between pitman hole and arm hole with all centered.
Turn all left and
Turn all right and measure that distance.
I’d like to remind you of the radius swing of the pitman and kingpin. I have yet to measure the degrees that each swings. From center of sector straight out 90* to hole in pitman is about 6.5"
The dragkink is in the forward most hole in arm. From center of kingpin to center of forward most hole is about 7"-7 1/8"
It is 5" to the rear most hole. Not sure what this info means- do I need a different pitman arm to try and even up the swing on each end?
Need to try the other hole on arm even though that seems like it’ll really throw off the above measured swing.
Pics of the perch.
This is 3/4" plate with 3/16 and 1/8 plate welded under it to get it to the right height. This goes between the old pieces still welded to the axle and sits right on the axle tube. I'll cut some pieces to go on the front and back to give it more support and offer some places to weld. Justthought I'd share.
Mudstud
1/2 ton status
Trail Ride
So after I got the perch all zipped up. yea the shiney paint brings out EVERY flaw in the welding.
I take some measurements from the center of the pitman arm hole over to the crossover arm with the draglink disconnected soeach part can turn it's entire swing.
Everything Centered straight ahead 40 5/8"
Turned Right 41"
Turned Left 41.5"
What do you guys make of these numbers?
As long as the truck was rolling a tad I got pretty good steering. I think it was to full lock to right and about .5' away from stop going left. I thought I'd run it like this but after the second big hole- which wasn;t that freakin big I notice my steering feeling jacked up. Start lookin at the box and sure enough the same freakion thing is happening- The sector shaft had started to twist. Thankfully i was able to turn around and head back out without having to do the gearbox change on teh trail. Right now my DL is as short as it can go. I suspect I should cut about .25 to .5"
off and see what it does. I swear at this point I'm seriously considering ditching this whole set up for full hydro.
So after I got the perch all zipped up. yea the shiney paint brings out EVERY flaw in the welding.
I take some measurements from the center of the pitman arm hole over to the crossover arm with the draglink disconnected soeach part can turn it's entire swing.
Everything Centered straight ahead 40 5/8"
Turned Right 41"
Turned Left 41.5"
What do you guys make of these numbers?
As long as the truck was rolling a tad I got pretty good steering. I think it was to full lock to right and about .5' away from stop going left. I thought I'd run it like this but after the second big hole- which wasn;t that freakin big I notice my steering feeling jacked up. Start lookin at the box and sure enough the same freakion thing is happening- The sector shaft had started to twist. Thankfully i was able to turn around and head back out without having to do the gearbox change on teh trail. Right now my DL is as short as it can go. I suspect I should cut about .25 to .5"
off and see what it does. I swear at this point I'm seriously considering ditching this whole set up for full hydro.
deadlew
1/2 ton status
You should take those measurements without the drag link connected, to give you an idea of how long your drag link should be. Mearsure from a common point on the alxe (say the driver side spring perch) turn the axle all the way right and measure the from the drag link hole on the cross over arm to the spring perch. Then turn the axle all the way left and measure. Split the difference set the axle at the half way point.
Next with the drag link remove from the pitman arm turn all the way right and measure to a common point on the drive frame rail, then turn left and measure, spilt the difference and set the pitman arm on the half way measurement.
Finally measure the distance between the pitman arm hole and the cross over arm hole and this is how long your drag link should be.
Get the box replaced or get a new sector shaft. I'm sure that the sector shaft is playing a part of it.
PaulC
Next with the drag link remove from the pitman arm turn all the way right and measure to a common point on the drive frame rail, then turn left and measure, spilt the difference and set the pitman arm on the half way measurement.
Finally measure the distance between the pitman arm hole and the cross over arm hole and this is how long your drag link should be.
Get the box replaced or get a new sector shaft. I'm sure that the sector shaft is playing a part of it.
PaulC
royjones
Trucker upper
This is what i did. it will turn lock to lock. thanks to dcubb
take your centered measurement and throw it away. you can drive straight. its turning you are worried about. there is only a half inch difference between left and right. you might just have to not be able to turn ful lock either way.
when the box and wheels are pointed straight is the draglink perpendicular to the trucks frame or is it pointed slightly forward or backwards?
the reason I ask is because the pitman arm and steering arm work in opposite swings. the pitman arm swings in an arc that moves it closer to the front of the truck as it approaches full lock and the steering arm moves towards the back of the truck. thats the inch difference between centered and the full lock measurements. if you make the draglink 40-5/8" you will not be able to turn full lock.
if you move the axle forward a slight amount 1/2" to 1" you will increase the effectiveness of your steering as you approach full lock. this is because the pitman arm will be pushing more to the side then it is now. right now the pitman arm pushes to the side and forward as the steering arm travels to the side and backwards.
but definitely replace that sector shaft.
when the box and wheels are pointed straight is the draglink perpendicular to the trucks frame or is it pointed slightly forward or backwards?
the reason I ask is because the pitman arm and steering arm work in opposite swings. the pitman arm swings in an arc that moves it closer to the front of the truck as it approaches full lock and the steering arm moves towards the back of the truck. thats the inch difference between centered and the full lock measurements. if you make the draglink 40-5/8" you will not be able to turn full lock.
if you move the axle forward a slight amount 1/2" to 1" you will increase the effectiveness of your steering as you approach full lock. this is because the pitman arm will be pushing more to the side then it is now. right now the pitman arm pushes to the side and forward as the steering arm travels to the side and backwards.
but definitely replace that sector shaft.
jimmy88
1/2 ton status
I just started the process of making my own crossover setup, but haven’t got to the point where you are yet. There is a lot to consider and here are my 2 cents after looking at your dilemma.
First is you will always have some sideways pull on the axle no matter what. The geometry of the setup may make it worse, but you cannot get rid of it. Is the force excessive in your case? <shrug> compared to what?
Every vehicle strains more to turn the tires while not moving. Sitting on a rough concrete floor with excellent traction is about the worst case (other than wedged against a rock). Again the question is: in your case, is the force excessive?
Basics first. Is the box ok? Are the ujoints seized? Are the steering knuckles binding somehow? One quick and dirty check for problems due to the kingpin bearings under load would be to put several plastic grocery bags under the front tires and try turning the wheels with the weight of the truck on them. This may help you find a problem that is not apparent when the truck is jacked up and the knuckles are more or less hanging on the upper kingpin bushings.
Keep in mind that the C on the end of the axle housing is the pivot point for the knuckle to rotate around. The axle housing has to hold against whatever force is put on the steering arm, otherwise the axle will move and the knuckle will not turn. The stock steering avoids side to side forces by pulling and pushing front to back on the axle. The front to back force is easily resisted by the left leaf spring. With crossover the steering forces wind up pushing sideways on the springs, not front to back. Plus the taller the arch on lifted springs the more leverage there will be on them and the less able they will be to resist side to side axle movement.
Gmc4cw is on the right track with this
In the best case the maximum twisting force (torque) is exerted on the steering knuckle trying to make it turn. In the worst case there is no twisting force at all and all the force is trying to pull the axle toward the steering box. As you turn, you go from the best case toward the worst case.
What does this mean in your situation? The further left you turn, the portion of the force applied to the steering arm that is going to try to pull the axle to the left increases. At full left lock you are probably getting close to half way between best and worst case. And because your steering arm is already left of center when the wheels are straight, it makes matters somewhat worse when turning left and somewhat better when turning right. It gets much more complicated when you start thinking in three dimensions, like when the axle is all crossed up.
Anyhow, as far as your latest dimensions, it would seem like all is good when the truck and axle are level. If the full right lock and full left lock dimensions were LESS than the 40.625" centered dimension, then there would be no way it could go lock to lock. As it is you "should" be able to go lock to lock. If you can’t find any mechanical problem causing excessive bind in the steering, then you may just need a hydro assist setup (which would take some of the load off the steering box and frame) and/or a panhard bar. But what do I know, though I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express one time.
Hope you get it figured out.
BTW when you twisted the sector shaft, was the impact from the hole trying to push the axle sideways as well as turn the wheels? Were the wheels pointing straight at the time?
First is you will always have some sideways pull on the axle no matter what. The geometry of the setup may make it worse, but you cannot get rid of it. Is the force excessive in your case? <shrug> compared to what?
Every vehicle strains more to turn the tires while not moving. Sitting on a rough concrete floor with excellent traction is about the worst case (other than wedged against a rock). Again the question is: in your case, is the force excessive?
Basics first. Is the box ok? Are the ujoints seized? Are the steering knuckles binding somehow? One quick and dirty check for problems due to the kingpin bearings under load would be to put several plastic grocery bags under the front tires and try turning the wheels with the weight of the truck on them. This may help you find a problem that is not apparent when the truck is jacked up and the knuckles are more or less hanging on the upper kingpin bushings.
Keep in mind that the C on the end of the axle housing is the pivot point for the knuckle to rotate around. The axle housing has to hold against whatever force is put on the steering arm, otherwise the axle will move and the knuckle will not turn. The stock steering avoids side to side forces by pulling and pushing front to back on the axle. The front to back force is easily resisted by the left leaf spring. With crossover the steering forces wind up pushing sideways on the springs, not front to back. Plus the taller the arch on lifted springs the more leverage there will be on them and the less able they will be to resist side to side axle movement.
Gmc4cw is on the right track with this
Here is a quick sketch that shows the best case and the worst case.gmc4cw said:
In the best case the maximum twisting force (torque) is exerted on the steering knuckle trying to make it turn. In the worst case there is no twisting force at all and all the force is trying to pull the axle toward the steering box. As you turn, you go from the best case toward the worst case.
What does this mean in your situation? The further left you turn, the portion of the force applied to the steering arm that is going to try to pull the axle to the left increases. At full left lock you are probably getting close to half way between best and worst case. And because your steering arm is already left of center when the wheels are straight, it makes matters somewhat worse when turning left and somewhat better when turning right. It gets much more complicated when you start thinking in three dimensions, like when the axle is all crossed up.
Anyhow, as far as your latest dimensions, it would seem like all is good when the truck and axle are level. If the full right lock and full left lock dimensions were LESS than the 40.625" centered dimension, then there would be no way it could go lock to lock. As it is you "should" be able to go lock to lock. If you can’t find any mechanical problem causing excessive bind in the steering, then you may just need a hydro assist setup (which would take some of the load off the steering box and frame) and/or a panhard bar. But what do I know, though I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express one time.
Hope you get it figured out.
BTW when you twisted the sector shaft, was the impact from the hole trying to push the axle sideways as well as turn the wheels? Were the wheels pointing straight at the time?
