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Put your Blazer on a diet

Wow, this thread is working out GREAT!

Hmmm, how about this.

Aluminum engine (or even a V6). Not that hard to come by now.

Poor mans doubler. Low first auto (built 700R4 cheapest?) and clocked 241.

Skin out most panels and mount to 1.75" cage/body.

Pickup tailgate if built on a K5 chassis.

No top or soft top for K5s.

1 ton axles. 14FF won't cost that much weight and worth it down low.

Leafs or links, weight is not significant enough to make the call clear.

K5 frame is good. Lighter than 1 ton and straighter (easier) than pickup.

No doors. Jeep like cloth skinned doors if needed for weather.

No glass. Lexan windshield if needed.

Plastic Sumit seats. PRP/Beard if more comfort is desired.

Aluminum radiator only if radiator needs replacing, not worth it otherwise.

Disks on the 14FF don't save that much, other factors are more important.

Rip out everything not required. (AC, floor mat, etc.)

Tube and patches (with tools) with onboard air (or CO2) instead of spare.
* Weight is kind of a trade off, but overall functionally better)

Minimal and targeted tool box and spares.

Engineer to eliminate need for duplications like
* “front AND rear driveshafts.
* “multiple u-joint sizes.
* Too many tool sizes (metric AND standard /forums/images/graemlins/eek.gif)

Minimal skid plating and armor.
 
I don't buy that any buggy just spins it's tires due to "too light". Other factors are at work. PSI might be down on the contact patch, but the resulting friction force required is MUCH less to move that light buggy...

Also, building as light as possible is a GOOD thing even if you think there is a "too light" point (especially good in minimum weight limited classes). That's because it lets you just put weight where you want/need it instead of where it just wound up. For instance, water in the tires...
 
To add to your brakes and weight Russ. Using pinion brakes or output yoke brakes (although I don't like/trust them) will cut it down a little. Every little bit helps. When tubing the cage use thinner wall (like .095 mild or less if cro-mo) for supports and other non bashed items.
 
I'm thinking, rock the K5 this year, then build an S10(s10 frame as well), with 1 tons or hybrid axles and a v6. 700R4 with either doubler or 241 behind it. Won't be superlightweight, but stout, capable, and lighter than a K5. Main cage bars made of 1.75" with .120 wall. Namely halo, rear supports, front supports, and middle supports. Then the rest with like 1.5" .120 or 1.75" .95.
 
I still don't see any way to make it light with a Doubler,14B, 60 combo. Brandon's buggy is pretty bare bones, and is way over 4K pounds.

I think you'll have to run dual 60's with Wilwood brakes, or something lighter, an Atlas, and a 4.3, or an all aluminum LS1, shortstar/Northstar, to really make it light. I think Chromo tube is key also. Mainly being able to use smaller dia. and wall thicknesses. Also running a 37-40" MTR or Krawler is key too. With aluminum bead locks. My 44" TSLs and steel 9.75" Trailreadys weigh 162 lbs each!

I know the Doublers are good for gearing choices, but I'm not convinced a light weight buggy needs more choices. You can get an Atlas in a 3.0, 3.8, 4.3, or 5.?, gear ratio.

More food for though:

I saw this buggy climb the last waterfall on Upper and he barely bumped it. He tried to just crawl up it and didn't make it. I said to my brother "He's never going to climb it without really getting on it" and then he crawled up it most of the way, bumped the front tires over, and crawled on up. I've never seen anyone do it so easily.

This is the rig:
StGeorge022.jpg


Here are the specs: Not a lot in common with our vehicles /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif

Chassis: Made from 1.5" DOM, 1.5" ERW, and 1.25" ERW tubing. Designed by Carl Whitmore.
Motor: GM Vortec TBI 4.3L
Transmission: GM TH350 auto
T-case: Toyota with 4.1 gears and twin stick.
Front Axle: Toyota 8" with FJ80 HP electric lock 3rd member, 4.10 factory gears, Longfield birfs.
Rear Axle: Toyota 8" with Tacoma electric lock 3rd member, 4.10 factory gears.
Steering: Full hydraulic with "double ended" ram and orbital valve from Performance Off Road Systems.
Front/Rear Suspension: 4link with Aurora heim joints, Daystar bushings, Doetsch Tech coilover shocks.
Wheels: Rockstomper 17" x 8" steel with 1/4" thick centers and DIY beadlock rings.
Tires: 37"x12.5"x17" BFGoodrich Krawler KX's.
Front/Rear Driveshafts: 2 piece with rear driveshaft disconnect from High Angle Driveline.
Winch: Warn HS9500i.
Special Features: Aluminum floor/fire wall/skid plates/roof/cowl, aluminum radiator, RCI seats, '47 Willys hood/grill, and tons of other stuff...
 
So, would it make sense to go back to 1/2 ton axles? If your running a small block or even a V6 and a 700r4 with a 241 to stay light, why not stop there? With the lower weight the 1/2 stuff might live much longer with a few aftermarket parts.

How much weight difference would AL rims make over steel ones?

How much weight is saved triming a tire out?

/forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif
 
I don't think the drop back to 1/2 ton is reasonable until you get into the sub 4k range and with no larger than 37" tires and aluminum wheels.

Also, IROKs would run a bit less unsprung than the typical Interco tires, not sure how it compares to MTRs and Krawlers though...

Also, in my comments above I'm not intending to say that such measures would get you sub 4k. Getting a full size somewhere well below 5k would be a huge accomplishment in itself.

I'm hoping to get motivated to build my truck smaller and maybe on a custom frame (full buggy style) later this summer... I'm getting really tired of working around the stock cowl and frame as well as living with the compromises that came about in the process of my evolution... 4500 lbs and about 14” narrower at the body and ready to roll on 42s with full gear would make me deliriously happy.
 
remove the bedsides when on the trail via DZUS fastners.
they are expensive, but worth it.

if you put lexan in then go ahead and make your windshield frame removeable. the lexan will be light enough to remove the frame and glass once you get to the trail.

get as many aluminum tools as possible. aluminum jack for starters. i know a lot of us carry full size fllor jacks. aluminum would drop a few lbs.
Grant
 
The eternal weight discussion......

In analyzing all this, one factor that keeps coming up is the $/# ratio. Some lightweight stuff costs a lot, some doesn't. Things like disc brakes and aluminum intake manifolds are not much extra cost over their heavy counterparts so you have to use them. Also, stuff like chopping hard cabs saves a bunch without a lot of tradeoffs.

BUT, 9" axles are NOT cheap weight. A junkyard 14FF with a detroit and disk brakes is relatively cheap compared to a similarly built 9" rear. Nodular carriers and new pinion supports add up. Then you're back to the semi float axle vs. full float axle argument too. Regardless the rear will cost more.
Then you look at the front axle. Our beloved kingpin D60's are a dime a dozen compared to 69's. (I like that new term a lot). Ball joint parts are newer and expensive, 9" parts are very available but not really cheap, and then it takes some expensive labor to put it all together.

Axles are not cheap weight unless you can go to a factory light axle like a D44/9" combo. Then you get to run no more than 37" tires, and maybe not super effectively at that.

We've kicked around lots of stuff looking at how to drop weight off of miniwally. What we've come down to is:
Get rid of the 22 gal fuel cell, maybe go to 15 gal or so?
I'm pretty sure I could chop some out of the chassis and still keep it durable, mostly in playing with wall thickness. No more than 100lb total for sure, probably less.
Narrow it a little bit, but then you rub elbows with your passenger
Shorten it, but then you sacrifice the driveshaft length that gives you the wheel travel in the rear that makes it fun.
Go to smaller tires but then they're not 42's
Alum heads on the motor (only drawback is $)
Lighter coilovers? Maybe no drawbacks if all the rest of the weight savings games pay off. Except you can't flog it as hard for as long before they heat up. Not huge for what we do.
Eliminate Doubler, then you pay more (depending on your scrounging ability) and don't have a middle gear. And with a big motor you do sacrifice strength.
Start messing with axles, then cheap goes away. It's hard to beat a junkyard high pinion front and a 14FF rear for cheap and strong.

Oh what fun.
 
I wasn't saying any of this stuff would be cheap /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif I'm thinking seriouslly after this seasons I'm going to get a high pinion 60, rear 60(oh no ford stuff in a chevy), V6 S10 truggy setup. I don't know, could I really ride anything with a V6 in it?? Would also depend on if I could sell the K5 for anything worth my time. Money will be tight in the next year.

Steve touched on a subject I was about to bring up, lighter coilover setups. On say my idea, a lightweight S10 truggy, with 1 tons below it, would 2" non resovoired coilovers be such a crazy idea? Save weight and $$ when it comes down to it. King claims someone ran the Paris to Dakar with a set of their 2" coilovers(non resovoir) without an issue. I can't see myself puting them through anything nearly that strenuous.
 
So I think I can see some conclusions forming up here. We can go quite light (relatively) but at the sacrafice for strenght and power. Not really worth it. Why? Because we dont compete for a living. So on a Hobby level we can only reasonable go so far before we say "Good enough"?

How about replacing the frame? would a homebuilt or tube replacement be worth the weight savings?

How much does a stock K5 frame weigh?
 
While it could be a bit lighter due to using thinner, more rigid box tubing to get the same strength, by itself I don't think it's a winning solution if weight is all you want. Round tube is a whole other game.

And for those looking for a “rigid” frame, I think a custom square tube frame is one of the best answers.

For me, I'm considering a 2x3x0.188 square tube frame just to simplify my life and give me more flexibility (in design) while shedding some weight too. In my case it would save me weight due to a complete redesign of the whole buggy with an integral frame and cage, eliminating quite a bit more "stuff". This would be fully rigid rather than having to deal with frame/body isolation OR the extra steel, complexity, and compromises necessary to effectively make a rigid truggy. The simplest and most effective example I’ve seen of making a light and rigid truggy with a K5 frame is Beck’s cool little K5 truggy. Very nice example of how to build a light, rigid and simple truggy. If I could live with only 2 seats, I would be doing about the same thing...
 
If I build a buggy I will use 2x3x.188 as well. My dad constructed a back half frame for his dirt track car out of it. It was a nova and had a thin crap frame, the new one is much more rigid and much nicer. He cut and bent the 2x3 and it turned out quite well I think. I want to build a 2 seater but one seat behind the other. I only need a 2 seater, I'm 18, kids are a long way off, just need a place to have the girl when I want to scare her. Besides puting her behind me may be a good idea, harder for her to scream in my ear.
 
So check this out. I was doing some research on radiators for my LT1 swap. I currently have the 4 core radiator w/brass tanks and copper cores from a big block truck that I need for the TBI 454 that has a shipping weight of 70 lbs./forums/images/graemlins/yikes.gif from PartsAmerica. A radiator from an LT1 car (Camaro or Caprice) with plastic tanks and aluminum core will have shipping weight of 21 lbs.! /forums/images/graemlins/pimp1.gif That is a 50 lbs. difference. Something for you small block guys to think about. /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
the next person to do a s-10 body swap should runthier old tub across the scales.

[/ QUOTE ]

will do. A lot of people seem to suggest that their is no weight savings to be had with this swap... and I just dont see how thats possible. Supposedly, 2 guys can lift a s-10 cab... have fun man-handling a K5 tub around with just 2 guys. Im sure a stripped/chopped-roof/skinned k5 tub doesnt weight much more than a factory S-10 body... but when I do it Im going to remove a mostly intact k5 body and install just the cab/tops or front fenders/glass hood. S-10 cab will prolly have a removable rear window/doors/sunroof as well. Oughta be quiet a difference in weight... and if not, oh well, atleast I'll be narrower for those damn jeep trails. lol!

j
 
We balance strength, cost and weight and comfort. Everybody has their own balance point.
Part of cost is our ability to fabricate and scrounge parts. If you're really good at building stuff, you can build cool things relatively cheap.


We made a trip to Johnson valley this spring and ran with a small group of jeep buggy guys from nevada that all ran super light tube frame vehicles with 350 motors, little coilovers or light leaves, 36" tires, D44 fronts, etc. There were variations but they were all in the 3600# class. But I can tell you 36" tires were a CHALLENGE for them at JV. With 42's, we just drove over lots of stuff that took them a lot of time to get through, even with really light buggies with decent clearance and small bodies. It's just not the same as having big tires but that's about all they could get away with given the D44 front ends. Drop a D60 in the front, add some 40's and all of a sudden they're weighing 4000# give or take and you're not far away from what we're talking about with our trucks.
They were pretty cool in the sand though.
 
Lots of good conversation in this thread, and it got me to thinkin', I bought my blazer cuz I think blazers are cool I don't care how heavy it is, or whether it will or won't climb this or that. I like my blazer cuz itis heavy and BIG, and guzzles fuel, plus if I don't like the way something works out, I can drive over it!! besides it gives me something NOT illegal to do. If we wanted something lighter we would have bought JEEPS,right??! LUVIN MY BIG LOUD HEAVY BLAZER!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/usaflag.gif /forums/images/graemlins/woot.gif /forums/images/graemlins/woot.gif /forums/images/graemlins/hack.gif /forums/images/graemlins/weld.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grind.gifwaiting for the barrage of crap for standin on my soapbox /forums/images/graemlins/whistling.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
How many of us at one time or another right before climbing something looked over at our passenger and said buckle up? Next time, look over at your 200 pound plus passenger and say "get the hell out and take a pic or something" right there you can reduce the weight of your rig by around 200 pounds in an instant, and it doesn't cost anything. /forums/images/graemlins/whistling.gif /forums/images/graemlins/histerical.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

and your pass seat doesent get broken by some kanuck.... /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif
grant
 
thats cool, I like my Blazers as well, but I want to start hard wheeling and building(cause building is half the fun). I'm just gonna run the K5 for something to run and to get seat time in.
 
t-case, Borg Warner 4401. its a 2.71 low range, aluminum case with chain driven front output. weighs a bit more than a 241 BUT is solid yolk front and rear from the factory and rated to something like 15k lbs or so.
VERY strong.

here is my personal opinion on weight. and it has been tried and tested by a couple people.(Rob and Mrv and Fred)

im building my blazer. and i know its going to be around 7klbs.

im also building it with a 465, doubler d60/14 bolt and 4.10's with 42's. right now a SB TBI is in it. i want a diesel. thats down the road.
the cage is going to be heave as heck because as stated before overkill in some areas is fine by me.

here is the deal thoguh. rob used to run around with a moderate TPI 350 and stock half tons on 35's and a CRAPLOAD of tools/gear in the back. let alone 2 full size peeps in the back and his son as well. with the right throttle you shouldnt have tomany problems. i figure i will weigh as much as him, but be on one tons and have more gear selections along with larger tires so needing less throttle overall.

eventualy i will end up removing all of the body, and the 14 bolt for another 60 or a 70hd.

i think weight makes it a bit harder on your components over time, and i agree for higher spped stuff or competition lightweight is good. but for a trail rig and i have a tow rig, weight will not bother me to much.
Grant
 
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