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quadrajet: the fuel pump, fuel bowl, and accelerator pump

Dyegear,your probably thinking of a "Grose Jet Float Valve" that was designed by a man here in MA long ago,that proved helpful in solving many flooding and other carb issues on "problem carbs" like many old forigen cars used...

Here is an image I found on google..there are some other pictures of them on google too...I first saw them in Hemming's old catalog,I guess they have been around longer than I have!..

download (4).jpg
 
Yep, definitely that. I recall the Grose Jet name on the little paper package.

One of these days I should really start putting these q-jets together and testing them on a motor to sell them. I have no plan to ever use them, but I don't mind rebuilding them.
 
diesel4me and dyeager535, I like the idea behind the Grose Jet - nice little long-term fix to valve seat wear.

Fuel temp:
I posted another data file of fuel temperature (on page 4 of this thread) - this time on a longer drive. I took the kids over to the beach yesterday. The fuel temp stays below 100 deg F. I drove over the mountains to get to the beach and I noticed a lot of fluctuation (80 to 90 deg F) in the temperature, I am guessing that is between when I have it near full throttle in 4th gear on some uphill sections and idle on the downhill sections. On the way home it was after dark so the temperature had dropped - the fuel temps fluctuate between 70 and 80 deg. The last bit it jumps back up to 90 deg, I think that might be the heat sink after shutdown. I forgot to check what time we got home. The important part, it was driving really nice when the fuel temp was 70 deg F, probably helps that the air temp was in the low 50s. With the temp drop through the venturi, the air charge exiting the carburetor should have been sub-freezing.

Accelerator pump/fuel bowl:
I made a video of the first accelerator pump shot. This was Saturday at noon and the truck has been sitting since Thursday afternoon. That is two days to evaporate fuel, and based on my rough calcs, should be sufficient to dry out the fuel bowl - or at least get it low enough there is an insufficient accelerator shot. I will post the video later - my wife is figuring out how to get the video off her phone and into google - there was a small fuel shot, I don't think ti was a full shot; I will take another video of the fuel shot after it is warmed up. And, I made a video of start-up after two hours at the beach, started right up, no problem, idled fine.

cold one-shot squirt test - seems like a small squirt
[youtube]http://youtu.be/z29Xwnkzn-M[/youtube]
http://youtu.be/z29Xwnkzn-M

cold start-up with one accelerator pump squirt
[youtube]http://youtu.be/Kj-hECgki1s[/youtube]
http://youtu.be/Kj-hECgki1s

warm start-up with one accelerator pump squirt
[youtube]http://youtu.be/x0QZZFvn0Fc[/youtube]
http://youtu.be/x0QZZFvn0Fc
 
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I made another video of the accelerator pump shot after sitting for one day - the previous shot after sitting for several days looks anemic in comparison.

[YOUTUBE]http://youtu.be/uaaUM1xBDY8[/YOUTUBE]
http://youtu.be/uaaUM1xBDY8

After one day, one pump of the gas pedal and it fires right up. Several days after it last ran, one pump, and nothing, just turns over.

[YOUTUBE]http://youtu.be/0h-Cw9DLnXQ[/YOUTUBE]
http://youtu.be/0h-Cw9DLnXQ

I think I've nailed it without a doubt - the fuel is evaporating and siphoning, probably each is 50/50 responsible.

I made a datalog of the underhood temp near the firewall, it was nearly the same as the in-aircleaner temp. I forgot to post it. I will make another. I will measure the temp at the firewall and over by the open wheelwells.

So far, the fuel temp is consistently ~100 deg F and the aircleaner is 30 deg F over outside airtemp. I have some heat shield to place between the header and fuel line, and a wood spacer for under the carb. Once I install those, I will post the new fuel and aircleaner temps.
 
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Today I tore down the carb at the in-laws

The fuel bowl rear plugs are super clean, no leaks there. The smaller primary plugs are wet. I don't know if this is from normal operation. I placed soap water on the plugs and blew compressed air through the orifice. I tried to plug the outgoing air but it was difficult. There were no air bubbles. Maybe for a second I saw a very small stream of bubbles but I could not get it to do it again.

Here is the video

[YOUTUBE]http://youtu.be/i_JYTeCADio[/YOUTUBE]
http://youtu.be/i_JYTeCADio

If you have done the bubble test, does this look like these plugs are not leaking?
 
Have not done the test, but that fuel isn't under pressure, so I'd turn the bowl right side up, put water in it, and see if it drips.
 
the idea is the pressure is greater than anything it would see so if it is leaking (Cliff's Q-jet Performance Book), we will see it with the soap

I'd really like to not sit and watch for a leak. But, if that is the test, should it be with gas since gas should leak more than water?

It is 2AM and I'm putting this back together now, in the morning we plan to drive up into the mountains for the week. I can stop, and do a leak test, I don't want to pull this apart again.

I did the soap test again, this time with a camera-man

[youtube]http://youtu.be/tomrmd8S4wI[/youtube]
http://youtu.be/tomrmd8S4wI
 
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I was thinking to use fuel, but it probably evaporates too fast? You could certainly try. If it doesn't leak out under no pressure, or it's extremely slow, you can figure that's not the real issue.

Put a jar or something under it to catch the fluid, let it sit for a few hours. If no leaks in that time, it's not going to leak. IMO for those things to be a real problem, the leak would have to be pretty massive for anything less than a days worth of sitting. If they just get damp from a very slow leak, a full float bowl would take a LONG time to drain down.
 
Just to round out the tests on the accelerator pump

A shot of the NAPA kit accelerator pump kit I had installed previously - I replaced this with one from Cliffs Performance.

Also a few shots of the secondary fuel bowl plugs and the well - both are clean

And a shot of the warped body with straight-edge. I will post a shot of the top plate in the next post.

Video of the fuel needle and seat vacuum test
[YOUTUBE]
[/YOUTUBE]

float_bowl_plugs_IMAG2762.jpg

accel_pump_cup_IMAG2777.jpg

warped_body_IMAG2795.jpg

secondary_plugs_IMAG2791.jpg

secondary_plug_well_IMAG2792.jpg
 
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photo of the top plate after I filed it flat - mostly, with a few screws and pressed together with the body and no gasket, I see some daylight, it rocks a bit, and there are a couple tight spots. I figured it is better to file less now and see if the gasket can handle the remaining warp, rather than file too much.

EDIT: Later on page 16 in this thread I posted some links about q-jet warp and get ready to revisit the topic http://coloradok5.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3518021#post3518021

warped_top_plate_filed_IMAG2794.jpg
 
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I got my hands on a Q-jet that some ape had got hold of, the air valves couldn't even close it was warped so bad.

People just don't understand the reason that torque specs exist I suppose. Those carb castings are not real tough.

I had luck doing a thermostat housing by sitting it on a flat piece of thick steel (glass would probably be a very good surface as a backer)with a piece of sandpaper sitting on it, then just ran it back and forth until it was flat. Do the Q-jets have a few small lips cast into the gasket mating surfaces? For some reason I recall something along those lines.
 
yes, there are a pair of parallel raised rims between the secondary throttle bores - probably to help hold the gasket, it is narrow right there.

I filed around these - and the pickup tubes, lucky for me they were in low spots.
 
Attached is the temperature log for the carburetor internal temperature - measured with a probe in the vent tube; the file is in text format (*.txt) rename it to *.csv format and it will open in excel or other spreadsheet software. CK5 will only allow attaching txt format not csv?

Also, not directly related to accelerator pump, fuel evaporating, and hard starting after a few days - but after I carefully filed the airhorn flat during the last carb teardown (point of teardown was just to remove the hook from the needle and float) I now have idle adjustment again (I thought is was because I don't have the vapor canister port connected - I replaced canister with a rollover shutoff valve). Previously, I had to turn the idle screws nearly all the way shut to get a vacuum change. Now I have adjustment again in the midrange of the idle screws. I managed to get 16.5 in-hg at 600rpm idle. Driving last night - before adjusting idle - seemed smoother and more responsive. Acceleration seemed to pull better though I did not get into it too much, just a short blast on the on-ramp. At the next fill-up I will see if I gained any fuel mileage - passed-up a $2.75/gal sign on the way to the in-law's thanksgiving, that was nice to see.

Back to the carb temp: I've previously posted the air temp inside the air cleaner, the air temp near the firewall, and the fuel temp. I wanted the carburetor internal temperature so I put the datalogger probe down the fuel bowl vent. I'd expected the carburetor to be a source of heat due to contact with the intake manifold; I expected something close to 185 deg F. The carburetor during freeway cruising is in the low 70s. Colder than the intake air ~ 100 deg F or fuel ~ 100 deg F. It makes sense now, the air passing through the venturi is compressed and then expands passing through the butterflys, absorbing heat, and reducing the temp, I read that it is usually a 30 deg F drop; 100 deg F air will drop to 70 deg (can cause icing in some situations). What I did not expect is that this significantly cools the carburetor body. Meaning, both the fuel in the bowl and the air entering the carb is cooled not heated.

I am going to drive this for a couple tanks of fuel - get some mileage readings and see if removing the hook from the needle stopped the fuel backflow/evaportation several days sitting hard starting problem; the idea is the fuel evaporates some and drops the fuel float, opening the needle and allowing more fuel to siphon out, and then more fuel evaporates - without the hook the needle stays seated. Next, I will add a wood thermal spacer under the carb and then add a heat shield between the headers and fuel line. This will cool the carburetor further and cool the fuel.

Notice in the data the heat soak at shutdown. The carburetor went from 70 deg to 110 deg in the next half an hour. That is fuel evaporating during that time. It took five hours to cool back down to 70 deg F. And, it was cold out, during the drive it was in the mid 50s and dropping, after shutdown it was in the high 40s and by midnight it was in the low 40s. How long the engine retains heat continues to surprise me.

K5_temp_vent.jpg
 

Attachments

  • K5_temp_vent.txt
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That period of 100+ lasted a lot longer than I expected it would, that's for sure.

If you have the patience, crack the hood or put a fan on the carb while you are watching temp and see what happens. I know the fan was one method GM used to try and eliminate that issue.

I'd also see about eliminating the crossover in the intake, if you aren't using EGR. I doubt that would affect heat soak, but perhaps it would keep it from peaking as high.

Can't look at the videos here, intake aluminum or iron?
 
thank you for keeping-up on the post

the intake is the classic dual-plane low rise aluminum - early '90s casting

yea, 2-hours at 100 deg F in 40 deg F night air is surprising; in the summer it must never cool down.

it is an EGR intake mold but I've never installed the EGR - California deranged smog rules, intake w/ EGR port CARB# required to pass smog but actual EGR not necessary, same for air-pump and exhaust air-injection ports??? all over now since '74 no longer needs smog - I have the crossover restriction plate installed (sheetmetal pad with dime sized hole in it that fits with intake manifold gasket) and I don't have a heat riser valve. Without the valve forcing gas to crossover, I suspect minimal if any (EDIT: not true - later I found that crossover is over 200 deg F while rest of intake is 185 deg F) exhaust ever flows through the crossover. It probably gets some crossover from pressure differentials in the exhaust but who knows how much heat this contributes. I will put a thermocouple on the intake manifold and check the actual temp next to the plenum. Eventually, I'd like to get a pair of vortec heads - I see you have a set on your '85 so you know - they eliminate the heat crossover.
 
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Yep, could have saved myself a ton of money...got all the parts to run EGR with the Vortecs and TPI, and now don't use it. lol

Can you use a toothpick type item to check fuel level in the float bowl immediately at shut down, then at intervals afterwards? At that temp, I'm assuming the fuel evaporates pretty readily. Hence the reason they eventually went to the charcoal filter in the air filter housing.
 
that is an excellent idea - I will give measuring the float level at intervals a try

good info on the charcoal filter modification GM added - that indicates the evaporation is significant, in an earlier post I gave the calculation for evaporation, in the first 2 hours after shutdown a quarter of the fuel evaporates. Now I need to measure that and verify my calculation is correct.
 
It would be really interesting to see the data/testing you KNOW GM did on this stuff, but that doesn't seem to see the light of day. There is a lot of stuff we try and correct that was probably already researched, but we have technology available that they didn't at the time, or for emissions reasons, etc.
 
I'm running vortecs with an Edl vortec intake and wood spacer on my 74.

That's good info, temp continues to rise for 1.45 hrs before it starts to drop And that's in cool OAT.

Definitely sealed up a small leak in your idle/crossover airhorn to throttle body with your filing.
I've yet to see one without some warping.Important to tighten inner screws first then work your way out on the airhorn.
 
I did about six passes lightly tightening the screws starting with the inside two and working out, the last round the screws turned maybe a fifth of a turn
 
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